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Bob Ballard in search of proof of Noah’s Flood

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#1 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 02:19 PM

Finder of Titanic seeks proof of Noah's flood

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Robert Ballard discovered the Titanic's wreckage and sparked new theories on the origins of life with his deep-water research. Now the legendary ocean explorer intends to probe the depths of the Black Sea in the hope of unearthing archaeological proof of Noah's flood.


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The theory behind Ballard's Noah's Flood Investigation is that, thousands of years ago, a natural dam burst, allowing the Mediterranean Sea to flood the Black Sea region. This, some say, may have been the biblical flood of Noah's time.

Ballard's Black Sea excursion next month will be the longest of the dozens of missions he has undertaken. The mission, led by Ballard's Institute for Exploration and the University of Rhode Island Graduate School of Oceanography, attracted sponsors including the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration, the National Geographic Society and the Office of Naval Research.

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#2 sierraleone

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 02:39 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if I they found out a big flood happened. Heck, where I live, there have been Natives using myths and using scientific evidence to support them and the fact they've live here long in Land Claims.

Edited by sierraleone, 26 June 2003 - 02:39 PM.

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#3 Shalamar

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 03:24 PM

Almost every culture has had legends of the flood, a flood at least, and I have seen a special that was based on the theory Mr. Ballard is proposing. The special may well have been about his 2000 mission, but I don't recall much about it..It was during one of my hospital stays and I was stoned on pain meds :p

Very interesting hyposis though and if it proves out it may well give greater creedence to dispersionist theories..ie the theory that anchient cultures globally had much greater contact that is traditionally thought.

#4 Enmar

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 06:45 PM

:eek2:

I have to admit I don't get it. Unlike the Titanic the ark, if real, was made of wood... not to mention the fact that it is supposed to be on the top of the mountains :lol:

So he'll find an ancient village on the bottom of the black sea, so what? I mean' it might be a nice piece of archeology, but it doesn't necessarily provide any proof of a flood, because being abandoned and on the bottom of the sea is something that happened to many ancient settlements (and in progress in Venice :()

I find it hard to believe that there's no research that sketches the changes in the sea shore lines in this area during the last 10,000 years. :unsure:

Edited by Enmar, 27 June 2003 - 07:35 AM.

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#5 Ilphi

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 07:55 PM

Oh, yeah, I saw an advert for this, hey, Go for it!

I'm curious to see how big the boat that which carried all those thousends of species of animals was! :D
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#6 Delvo

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 11:12 PM

Enmar, on Jun 26 2003, 01:46 AM, said:

Unlike the Titanic the arch, if real, was made of wood... not to mention the fact that it is supposed to be on the top of the mountains :lol:
He's not looking for the Ark down there. He's looking for signs of settlement along an old lake shore. If found, this would prove that the area was submerged in a sudden cataclismic flood within the last few thousand years, and that there were people there to see it and who would talk about it when they fled elsewhere.

Connecting this to the Bible's flood isn't a really solid idea, but it could work as the origin of the Middle-Eastern flood myth if you figure that the Jews and Babylonians and such got their flood myth from travelers who, for whatever reason, moved rather far southeast from the Black Sea area after their homes were lost. I don't see a need to go to such lengths to explain it, when the Middle-Easterners had their own rivers nearby, where a huge flood was sure to be seen at least a few times per millennium. But in any case, if the Black Sea's sudden creation is the origin of the flood myth, the reality bears so little resemblance to the Bible's self-contradicting story that it's silly of the writers of this article to claim that he's seeking "proof of the Biblical flood".

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So he'll find an ancient village on the bottom of the black sea, so what? I mean' it might be a nice piece of archeology, but it doesn't necessarily provide any proof of a flood, because being abandoned and on the bottom of the sea is something that happened to many ancient settlements (and in progress in Venice :()
Not at all! What gave you that idea?! There might be a few other places where some small movements of shore lines flooded a settlement, but that's NOTHING like what we're talking about here. What's under the Black Sea, if it's there, is very DEEP under the water, and many MILES from the current shore. That's far beyond the amount of ordinary shore line shifting you're talking about. The only way humans could have built anything there and have it buried so deep inside the current Black Sea, whose size and shape has been the same for as long as we know, is if most of the Black Sea as we know it was filled in very very quickly; like I said, a cataclism/catastrophe.

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I find it hard to believe that there's no research that sketches the changes in the sea shore lines in this area during the last 10,000 years. :unsure:
Such research as you're talking about would only be able to track gradual erosion and sedimentation in the local water bodies. Having a whole sea suddenly dumped in place is a different matter entirely.

#7 Ogami

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 11:31 PM

Shalamar wrote:

Almost every culture has had legends of the flood, a flood at least, and I have seen a special that was based on the theory Mr. Ballard is proposing.

Humans need water, humans need to live near water sources like lakes or rivers, these are prone to flooding. It would be unnatural were any ancient culture not to have a story about a really big flood.

Noah's flood was Utnapishtum's flood, the Israelis simply lifted the story from the Sumerians (or the later Assyrians and Babylonians). Seems like they "cherry picked" myths and folklore that was extant in the region for their own religion, a practice not unheard of in today's cults and sects.

-Ogami

Edited by Ogami, 26 June 2003 - 11:42 PM.


#8 Jid

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 02:30 AM

^ Actually, I agree in many senses.

If you compare the genesis creation story with babylonian creation myths of the time, the parallels are quite amazing.  (Almost as if they lifted parts of the story and injected the parts about God.)

#9 DWF

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 02:52 AM

Delvo, on Jun 26 2003, 08:13 AM, said:

What's under the Black Sea, if it's there, is very DEEP under the water, and many MILES from the current shore. That's far beyond the amount of ordinary shore line shifting you're talking about. The only way humans could have built anything there and have it buried so deep inside the current Black Sea, whose size and shape has been the same for as long as we know, is if most of the Black Sea as we know it was filled in very very quickly; like I said, a cataclism/catastrophe.
Is the Black Sea that deep? that sounds very much like it'd the size of the crater, of whatever was supposed to have hit the Earth, that caused the extiction of the dinosaurs.

I would be very interested in hearing his results. :cool:
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#10 Rov Judicata

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 03:40 AM

What's more, isn't the Biblical flood global? It did, after all, wipe out all but eight people, and it's not like there weren't humans in the western hemsphere....
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#11 Julie

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 04:30 AM

I doubt he'll be able to find conclusive evidence of that.  Though personally, all the stories of an ancient, huge flood are enough to make me think it's likely that there really was one.

#12 DWF

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 04:32 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 26 2003, 12:41 PM, said:

What's more, isn't the Biblical flood global? It did, after all, wipe out all but eight people, and it's not like there weren't humans in the western hemsphere....
Yeah but, thew world was flat back then, so the excess water just ran off the edge of the world. ;)  :lol:
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#13 Enmar

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 07:53 AM

Delvo, on Jun 26 2003, 03:13 PM, said:

Enmar, on Jun 26 2003, 01:46 AM, said:

Unlike the Titanic the ark, if real, was made of wood... not to mention the fact that it is supposed to be on the top of the mountains :lol:
He's not looking for the Ark down there. He's looking for signs of settlement along an old lake shore. If found, this would prove that the area was submerged in a sudden cataclismic flood within the last few thousand years, and that there were people there to see it and who would talk about it when they fled elsewhere.

I know that, see the rest of my post ;) But I still find the fact that they hired Noah to their PR amusing :p

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So he'll find an ancient village on the bottom of the black sea, so what? I mean' it might be a nice piece of archeology, but it doesn't necessarily provide any proof of a flood, because being abandoned and on the bottom of the sea is something that happened to many ancient settlements (and in progress in Venice :()
Not at all! What gave you that idea?! There might be a few other places where some small movements of shore lines flooded a settlement, but that's NOTHING like what we're talking about here. What's under the Black Sea, if it's there, is very DEEP under the water, and many MILES from the current shore. That's far beyond the amount of ordinary shore line shifting you're talking about. The only way humans could have built anything there and have it buried so deep inside the current Black Sea, whose size and shape has been the same for as long as we know, is if most of the Black Sea as we know it was filled in very very quickly; like I said, a cataclism/catastrophe.

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I find it hard to believe that there's no research that sketches the changes in the sea shore lines in this area during the last 10,000 years. :unsure:
Such research as you're talking about would only be able to track gradual erosion and sedimentation in the local water bodies. Having a whole sea suddenly dumped in place is a different matter entirely.

Delvo, seas don't just come into existence as you decribe it :eek:
How deep is the black sea anyway? We know of places that are slowly covered by the sea, but as you said yourself they aren't that deep. We know of places that used to be at the bottom of the sea (that's how chalk and dolomite are created) and are now bare. But I never heard of a place that disappeared into the deep sea, because the bottom of the sea is very different from the ground. It's a very thin layer of rocks and It is created under the sea. I can't imagine any mechanism for the land to be flooded by shallow water and than the ground below the water implode miles deep. Not to mention the fact that no sign of settlement will survive that. The other option is, of course, that the sea level was miles higher than it is today, but that is something we would have known.

And ROFLOL DWF :D

Edited by Enmar, 27 June 2003 - 07:55 AM.

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#14 Delvo

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 10:00 AM

Enmar, on Jun 26 2003, 02:54 PM, said:

Delvo, seas don't just come into existence as you decribe it :eek: ...We know of places that are slowly covered by the sea, but as you said yourself they aren't that deep... But I never heard of a place that disappeared into the deep sea... I can't imagine any mechanism for the land to be flooded by shallow water and then the ground below the water implode miles deep... The other option is, of course, that the sea level was miles higher than it is today, but that is something we would have known.
Wow! I forgot that the story of the Black Sea wasn't background already provided to all here...

As a map can show you, the Black Sea is close to landlocked, with only a small opening to the Mediterranean Sea at Istanbul. At that point, not only do the two peninsulas of dry land come very close to each other, but the "floor" also comes up pretty close under the water's surface there; the two seas dive deep under the surface away from this point like bowls, which means that there's a "wall" of rock not-quite-separating them.

The idea, widely accepted among geologists but not universally accepted, and not exactly yet proven, is that the wall was once just a bit taller when the sea level was lower. And at that time, the Mediterranen Sea had just about as much water in it as it does now, but what is now the Black Sea was dry land that happened to be below sea level, separated from the Mediterranean Sea by what you could essentially consider a natural dam. Then, a warming trend in the climate melted the glaciers and increased sea level until the Mediterranean water had risen high enough to either break through the top of that rock formation via simple weight, or just spill right over it. After that, a flow was established that would have been tremendously massive and unimaginibly fast, and chewed away much of what was left of that broken natural dam.

Now picture this from the bottom side. There might have been a little freshwater lake there where people would probably have lived, and some rivers flowing into it. Then, whether it happened suddenly one day or by gradual erosion over weeks or months, water started coming down over the tops of the nearby highlands. If it was in the form of a sudden waterfall popping out one day, that waterfall would have been many times the magnitude of any that exist today. If it was slower, it would still have seemed "sudden", like a set of large and fast-flowing rivers appearing very close to each other over the course of a spring and summer. Either way, the lake's water level would have risen very fast, the shoreline backing upstream at a rate of miles per day. And all this new water coming in was salty.

Eventually, the water level equalized and the flow stopped; the Black sea as we now know it had formed. Rivers that would once have fed a smaller lake at the bottom of the basin now enter the Black Sea many miles sooner. We know that most of this water skips right over the top of the sea on its way out to the Mediterranean Sea through that narrow isthmus at Istanbul, because the lower Black Sea is saltwater, which is heavier. This is consistent with the idea of the sea being formed by dumping from the Mediterranean, because if it were primarily from the rivers that flow into it, it wouldn't be so salty, and there's no salt coming in there now from any other source. One effect of this layering is that there's no life down there; the lack of mixing with the lighter upper layers means that any saltwater-inhabiting life-forms that came in there with the water originally used up the last of the oxygen long ago, while any new life forms to get added since then wouldn't survive that far down because either the fresh upper layers or the salty lower ones would kill them. Thus, there's nothing there to decompose the organic parts of any archæological find. They've already found a Roman galley down there which was quite well preserved.

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How deep is the black sea anyway?
The fresh and salty layers meet at about 60-70 meters; the deepest points are more than two thousand.

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We know of places that used to be at the bottom of the sea (that's how chalk and dolomite are created) and are now bare.
They got moved upward pretty far to where they are now, a geological process that takes far longer than the span of human history and prehistory.

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the bottom of the sea is very different from the ground. It's a very thin layer of rocks and It is created under the sea.
You sound like you're describing the difference between the tectonic plates under the oceans and the ones that are parts of continents. But sometimes what's called a "sea" is on a part of a continental plate that just happens to have water in it, just like a pond or lake, only bigger. These are called "epieric seas". I'm not sure if the Mediterranean Sea is one or not, but the Black Sea is. Some of the biggest and/or most well known to many people are Hudson Bay, the Gulf of Mexico, the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden, the English Channel, and a few other "seas" along western Asia and among all of those islands from there to (and including) northern Australia's Gulf of Carpentaria. These seas can come and go with changes in sea level and also with changes in the shapes of the continents; for example, much of North America's southern "Midwest" was once such a sea (basicly a larger Gulf of Mexico), but that was when the Appalchians were taller and the Rockies were shorter...

Edited by Delvo, 27 June 2003 - 01:08 PM.


#15 Shalamar

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 12:35 PM

You find flood myths in Cultures that 'traditionally' had no contact with one another, you find it in The Americas too.

Delvo IIRC both Hudson Bay and Gulf of Mexico are impact craters.
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#16 tennyson

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 01:36 PM

Just to clearup any confusion the dinosaur killer object in the Yucatan did not make the Gulf of Mexico, its crater has been located and is only something like 180 miles in diameter. The Gulf of Mexico may have been formed by a much larger and older impact but I've never heard that theory before and it wasn't the Yucatan impact that did it.
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#17 Ogami

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 11:17 PM

Quite right, Tennyson.

#18 Enmar

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 07:11 AM

It makes much more sense now, thanks Delvo :)

But it still sounds way too deep :blink:
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#19 Drew

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 07:23 AM

Jid, on Jun 26 2003, 10:31 AM, said:

If you compare the genesis creation story with babylonian creation myths of the time, the parallels are quite amazing.  (Almost as if they lifted parts of the story and injected the parts about God.)
Of course, if you consider that Genesis is supposedly the "genesis" of . . . well, everyone, . . . it certainly follows that it would be a story found in every culture on the planet.
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#20 Enmar

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 07:29 AM

^ That a refreshing POV :wideeyed:
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