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Teachers get preliminary OK to carry weapons

Gun Control Teachers OK permit to carry

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#1 jon3831

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 03:30 PM

Teachers get preliminary OK to carry weapons


Quote

The Jordan School Board gave preliminary approval Tuesday to a policy outlining the conditions under which district employees may carry a concealed weapon on school property with a valid permit.
    Employees must keep the weapon concealed and employees who legally use a concealed weapon on school grounds do so in their individual capacities, not their scope of employment.

I approve of this. Why should people not have the right to self defense in a school zone? Moreover, why should students who would create a Columbine-style incident have free reign to do so? If those students don't know who is carrying a weapon, it will stand as a deterrent to any such incidents. Personally, I'm a firm believer in Heinlein when he said, "An armed society is a polite society."

Any thoughts?
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#2 QuiGon John

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 03:36 PM

You know what?  I'm gonna shock some people, as I'm not for guns as a rule, but I can definitely see the sense in this.

Schools have just become so dangerous these days... if we're going to ask teachers to step into a situation like that, they ought to have the means and the right to defend themselves.

Edited by John Burke, 27 June 2003 - 03:37 PM.


#3 Josh

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 03:40 PM

I have to agree with John as well. There's a part of me that's a little disturbed by this, but I think that's just mostly my feelings towards the state of the world which REQUIRES this sort of thing for safety reasons.

As long as the teachers have the suitable training (and they clearly would), I think it would probably be for the best and would probably save lives in the long run.

Edited by Josh, 27 June 2003 - 03:40 PM.

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#4 jon3831

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 03:41 PM

Just a post to emphasise the fact that this would only apply for teachers with a valid Utah Concealed Carry permit. We're not talking about letting any teacher carry, only those who go through the training and paperwork and fingerprinting and background check process to obtain a Utah permit.

</clarifier>
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#5 Bossy

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 04:00 PM

Hmmmmm, I think this is a good idea, contingent upon the requirements for getting a permit to carry a concealed weapon. There are a great many school districts where teachers are putting their lives on the line every day just by being in their classroom. I should hope that the possibility of an armed teacher would make some students rethink any violent plans.
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#6 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 04:16 PM

I'm sorry, but I simply can't agree on this. To me it is just too dangerous. Doing this simply is asking for trouble, IMO.

Granted, given all the violence in schools today, schools are far from safe. So, how is putting guns in the hands of teachers, who should be concerned with Teaching...not riot control, going to help?

Let's say a couple of students do bring guns to school and start shooting rounds. What are these teachers going to do? Shoot back? Oh yeah, that's going to help....having a gun fight in the school. What happens if the teacher misses and hits another innocent student?

I can just see it. Students bringing guns to school, for whatever reason, then the cops show up and start negotating with the armed students...when, out of the blue, a teacher tries to play the hero and tries taking the students out. Now, in what could've possibly ended peacefully, several students, innocent as well as the armed ones, are lying dead.

This policy is just plain asking for trouble.

Or, how bout this senario.

Teacher pulls out a gun and points it at the students. "You will sit down and be quiet...or else" :p
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#7 Bossy

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 03:31 AM

^Well, that's why I am hestiant to say that its really a good idea. There is certainly a lot of chance for the situations you describe.

You are right that the teachers' job is to teach, not riot control. Unfortunately, there are a lot of schools where teachers can't teach. They are too busy trying to keep their classroom controlled enough that there isn't active fighting in the classrooms.  :(
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#8 Gaiate

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 03:38 AM

I agree with LotS.  Even if the teachers go through all the background checks and firearms training, they're simply not qualified to deal with the kinds of situations that they're supposed to be preventing.  If the schools are so concerned with kids coming to school with weapons, either hire a couple security guards or install metal detectors.  Having teachers walking around with loaded guns is just asking for a diaster.

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#9 Rov Judicata

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 03:42 AM

I think it's a marvelous idea.

Currently, schools are "Defenseless Victim Zones", meaning that anybody who wants to kill a few innocent people without anybody being able to fight back knows exactly where to go.

By making campuses gun free, the state has effectively made the children vulnerable to any psychopath.

Part of CCW training is not only how to shoot, but how to think. Using it in the fashion LotS describes would be trained out of the people in question. If you're a civilian, you *never* fire at an obstructed target.

I think it's main value is as a deterrent. If the psychopaths don't know who has the guns, and how many armed teachers they might be facing, I think it'll act as a deterrent....
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#10 Bad Wolf

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 03:55 AM

I think this is a terrible idea.  We have a problem with weapons in schools so let's ADD to the problem?

:(
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#11 Rov Judicata

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 04:04 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 27 2003, 09:56 AM, said:

I think this is a terrible idea.  We have a problem with weapons in schools so let's ADD to the problem?

:(
As a student, I'd rather know that the classroom isn't completely defenseless.  Because, at the moment, it's the perfect target for every lunatic out there.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
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~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#12 Julie

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 05:02 AM

I can understand why some people think this is a terrible idea, but right now I'm more inclined to think it's a wise precaution.

Quote

Even if the teachers go through all the background checks and firearms training, they're simply not qualified to deal with the kinds of situations that they're supposed to be preventing. If the schools are so concerned with kids coming to school with weapons, either hire a couple security guards or install metal detectors. Having teachers walking around with loaded guns is just asking for a diaster.
So do you propose that these couple of security guards have loaded guns?  If so, I'm not convinced that's much better/worse than letting teachers with training have guns.  As for metal detectors, most schools are too cheap for that.  And if metal detectors are installed, they wouldn't be much of a help by themselves.  A few moments before some crazy person starts shooting, it would inform those at the entrance that the person has something metallic.  If everyone in the school is unarmed, this warning wouldn't be terribly useful.

#13 Rhea

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 05:21 AM

Gaiate, on Jun 27 2003, 09:39 AM, said:

I agree with LotS.  Even if the teachers go through all the background checks and firearms training, they're simply not qualified to deal with the kinds of situations that they're supposed to be preventing.  If the schools are so concerned with kids coming to school with weapons, either hire a couple security guards or install metal detectors.  Having teachers walking around with loaded guns is just asking for a diaster.

--Te
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I work in education, and I can tell you that *I* wouldn't trust most of the teachers I know with a gun.  :p  :p

The thought of what could go wrong makes my blood run cold.
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#14 Ogami

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 05:27 AM

I can recall many classes where a taser would have benefitted the learning experience, one bully here or there, and the rest of us could learn better...

#15 EvilTree

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 05:28 AM

The fact that this sort of law has to be legislated makes me think how screwed up the society really is.
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#16 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 05:40 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 27 2003, 12:56 PM, said:

I think this is a terrible idea.  We have a problem with weapons in schools so let's ADD to the problem?
:eek:  :o  :oh:  Lil, we've simply got to stop agreeing on topics, people are going to talk.  ;)  :p

And Rov. I hear your point, but the inherent risks involved far outweight the possiblities you mentioned.

For example. Say two students are fist fighting in the hall. Now, Teacher A, who has gone through all the background checks, gun training, ect tries to stop them. In the course of his trying to break up the fight, one of the students manages to grab the gun from the teacher...

Now we have one student, who didn't bring a gun to school, and who is right now really pissed, and suddenly he has a gun. What do you think is going to happen?

Edited by LORD of the SWORD, 28 June 2003 - 05:41 AM.

"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#17 Julie

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 05:44 AM

EvilTree, on Jun 27 2003, 02:29 PM, said:

The fact that this sort of law has to be legislated makes me think how screwed up the society really is.
I'm not convinced it's all that screwed up... not in this issue, at least.  Whenever a serious case of school violence occurs, it gets a ton of media coverage and a lot of attention and horror from the public-- understandable, but personally I think it majorly exagerrates the prevalence of the problem.

#18 AnneZo

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 07:51 AM

I think this is appalling.  

Sure, let's just start handing out guns.  That will fix it all.  More guns in the classroom!  

What a rallying cry.

Rather than to start arming the teachers, why don't they address the problems the students have, huh?

I'll tell you why. Because the trend today is all about guns and away from properly funding public eduation.

You have overcrowded classrooms, overworked teachers, old and broken  equipment and too few books, and no one (including the freaking parents) is paying enough attention to the person sitting at each student's desk to know whether or not the kid is a time bomb.

Meanwhile, the military gets more guns and more bombs and more "smart" weapons so that we can wreak havoc overseas. I guess it's just a little bonus that we're wreaking havoc right here at home, too.

I'm just disgusted and I'm shocked that people seem to believe that this will solve anything.

For the first time, I see why people want to completely overturn the Second Amendment and I'd not only vote for it at this minute, I'd contribute a significant amount of my time and money to make it happen.

Criminy.  Really, there are days when I wonder what happened to the USofA I used to live in.

#19 Josh

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 07:59 AM

Quote

For example. Say two students are fist fighting in the hall. Now, Teacher A, who has gone through all the background checks, gun training, ect tries to stop them. In the course of his trying to break up the fight, one of the students manages to grab the gun from the teacher...

Now we have one student, who didn't bring a gun to school, and who is right now really pissed, and suddenly he has a gun. What do you think is going to happen?

I think considering the amount of training they would be required to go through that the teacher would be intelligent enough not to try to break up a mundane fist fight with a gun.
"THE UNICORNS ARE NOT TO BE TRIFLED WITH!" - John Burke.

#20 AnneZo

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 08:05 AM

^ Yes, and that's going to happen because teachers are supermen who have eyes in the backs of their heads, would never be knocked off-balance when trying to break up a fight, and would never just snap one day and pull out the gun, never meaning to use it of course...and then someone dies.

It's a lousy idea.  Lousy.



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