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Teachers get preliminary OK to carry weapons

Gun Control Teachers OK permit to carry

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#21 Josh

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 08:06 AM

^

And so is just sitting around at school waiting to get shot by a fellow student. It's not an easy issue and there are no easy solutions.
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#22 Rov Judicata

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 08:06 AM

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For example. Say two students are fist fighting in the hall. Now, Teacher A, who has gone through all the background checks, gun training, ect tries to stop them. In the course of his trying to break up the fight, one of the students manages to grab the gun from the teacher...

That's extraordinarily unlikely. I imagine that the gun would be locked in a drawer anyway. Even if it wasn't, the safety would be on. Because of the anti-gun culture we live in, most students don't even know where the safety is, let alone how to turn it off.

You are right, however, that it would require plenty of safety precautions.

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Rather than to start arming the teachers, why don't they address the problems the students have, huh?

I think the problem is parenting. Doesn't mean I want to let a student with a gun run rampant, unchecked.

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I'll  tell you why. Because the trend today is all about guns and away from properly funding public eduation.

Unlikely. Between national, state, and local laws, gun rights are being eroded awy on a regular basis. Conversely, the largest education bill ever was signed just two years ago. There's only so much money that can be pumped into the system.

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I'm just disgusted and I'm shocked that people seem to believe that this will solve anything.

The reality of insane, armed students is unavoidable. There's nothing wrong with your average maniac that several rounds of lead won't solve.

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For the first time, I see why people want to completely overturn the Second Amendment and I'd not only vote for it at this minute, I'd contribute a significant amount of my time and money to make it happen.

No need; congress and the courts are working on it.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#23 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 08:52 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 27 2003, 05:07 PM, said:

That's extraordinarily unlikely. I imagine that the gun would be locked in a drawer anyway. Even if it wasn't, the safety would be on. Because of the anti-gun culture we live in, most students don't even know where the safety is, let alone how to turn it off.

You are right, however, that it would require plenty of safety precautions.
We're not talking about a teacher having a gun locked up in a draw. We're talking about a teacher carrying a concealed weapon...which usually implies that it would be on his/her person.

As for the Safety on a gun...You're not serious are you? It's not that hard to switch a safety off. Hell, a 5 year old brought a gun to his school in NY. Not sure how he was found out. I'll have to search and see if I can find it. My point is this. Most students, IMO, wouldn't have a hard time switching the safety off on the gun.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#24 AnneZo

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 09:04 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 27 2003, 09:07 PM, said:

The reality of insane, armed students is unavoidable.
There's so much wrong with that statement that this just became one of those threads I have to leave for a while until I can post politely. :)

#25 Morrhigan

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 11:39 AM

Good lord.

If - and it's a big if - I accepted the premise that danger in schools is so prevalent that teachers need to be armed, I would never recommend giving them lethal weapons. Hello?! How about non-lethal ways of dealing with the problem? Tasers, tear gas, hell, even tranquilizer guns, surely we can come up with other ways of making the schools safe for students and staff.

And don't think for one minute that I actually am agreeing that teachers need to be armed. My mom's a teacher. A good friend of mine is a teacher. Neither of them is pro gun-control. Hell, my friend owns a gun. But neither of them have ever said to me, even in jest, that they wished they could carry a gun to school.

If some school somewhere is so dangerous that a teacher needs to carry a weapon, I say close it down. Any school that's devolved to that state of emergency is incapable of educating.

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#26 Shalamar

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 12:00 PM

I agree with Jon and Rov on this, but I would add that I feel that the teachers should be required to have additional training.

Yes I know that teachers are terribly over worked, underpaid, and definitely as a whole the profession is under appreciated.

I can see tasers as a viable alternative but for some reason tasers have caught a bad rap. I have heard many law enforcement people bemoaning the fact that they are not allowed to have them.

Trank guns and tear gas..shudder at the thoughts those bring about...trank guns are more dangerous as far as I am concerned what with the differences in reactions to the various drugs used...and the fact that since they are supposedly non leathal, milder, the impulse to use them could very well be far greater

and tear gas..it isn't... it's pepper spray, and doesn't deter most any one who would really need it used on them..and you have to practically be in the offenders face...sorry not a good option vs a gun...
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#27 Guest-2112st-Guest

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 01:31 PM

Morrhigan, on Jun 28 2003, 12:40 AM, said:

If some school somewhere is so dangerous that a teacher needs to carry a weapon, I say close it down. Any school that's devolved to that state of emergency is incapable of educating.
I agree 100%.

#28 Rov Judicata

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 01:39 PM

LotS-- Again, I agree that the safety precautions situation needs to be looked at long and hard.

Vapor Trails, Morrhigan-- The point is that you never know when tragedy will strike. It's like lightning; you know it *will* strike, but it's near impossible to predict where.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#29 Morrhigan

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 01:41 PM

^Rov, in that case, shouldn't everyone, everywhere, carry guns?  :rolleyes:

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#30 Rov Judicata

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 01:42 PM

^

If they choose to, and can get a CCW within state law, absolutely. I think being able to defend one's self is a marvelous idea.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#31 Laoise

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 01:45 PM

^ The world would certainly be a safer place if we all had guns.  Humans would very quickly die out.

... Now that I've realized that, maybe I need to rethink my anti-gun stance.... ;)
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#32 Norville

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 03:25 PM

I'm... uh... :blink: ... speechless. I'd freak out, but it's far too hot and I don't have the energy. Can I just say that this society is irredeemably insane?

My mother was a teacher in the 1950s. She had some run-ins with students even back then, including some guys who tried to throw her out a window. But imagining her with a gun... sorry, though she was professional as a teacher, she's always had the worst temper, and she's terribly clumsy, too. So imagine a hot-tempered klutz with a gun... nope, I wouldn't trust that. :Oo: ;)

Oh, and Laoise's post just above mine... heh... yep. ;)

Edited by Norville, 28 June 2003 - 03:27 PM.

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#33 Bad Wolf

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 03:38 PM

Laoise, on Jun 27 2003, 07:46 PM, said:

^ The world would certainly be a safer place if we all had guns.  Humans would very quickly die out.

... Now that I've realized that, maybe I need to rethink my anti-gun stance.... ;)
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And no, I'm not kidding.



More's the pity.:(
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#34 Guest-2112st-Guest

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 03:51 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 28 2003, 02:40 AM, said:

Vapor Trails, Morrhigan-- The point is that you never know when tragedy will strike. It's like lightning; you know it *will* strike, but it's near impossible to predict where.
Heh-I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I've been around kids with problems all my life-my parents were foster parents and I drive a school bus. After all these years, I know what to watch out for.

And I'll say this...kids have always been rebellious, but IMNSHO, within the last 10 years or so, kids have grown more than just disrespectful-they've become belligerent and in-your-face. Anyone else feel this way too?

How would you like it if a 10 or 12-year old told you, "Go f*** yourself you mother****n a***hole!!" ?

Now, trying dealing with nearly a dozen kids like that. And that's NOT including some of the violent ones. :(

Add to that mix indifferent adults at schools and at the Board of Education.

It's one of the reasons I'm taking off this summer. :( And I'm trying to teach myself some stuff about computers so I can find something better. I had this job for a while because I was taking care of my sick father (now deceased). I'm looking after my mom now-but I've just about had it with this job. :(

#35 Julie

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 04:02 PM

Morrhigan, on Jun 27 2003, 10:42 PM, said:

^Rov, in that case, shouldn't everyone, everywhere, carry guns?  :rolleyes:
Isn't this, basically, our current situation?  Not that everyone does carry guns, but everyone has the option.  And now they've decided to allow this option for the teachers when in school as well.

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As for the Safety on a gun...You're not serious are you? It's not that hard to switch a safety off. Hell, a 5 year old brought a gun to his school in NY. Not sure how he was found out. I'll have to search and see if I can find it. My point is this. Most students, IMO, wouldn't have a hard time switching the safety off on the gun.
I don't know about anyone else here, but I sure don't know how to switch the safety off.  I'm guessing most people could figure it out with a gun in their hands and a little time, but "a little time" wasn't in your original scenario.  You said:

Quote

For example. Say two students are fist fighting in the hall. Now, Teacher A, who has gone through all the background checks, gun training, ect tries to stop them. In the course of his trying to break up the fight, one of the students manages to grab the gun from the teacher...

Now we have one student, who didn't bring a gun to school, and who is right now really pissed, and suddenly he has a gun. What do you think is going to happen?


#36 Gaiate

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 04:19 PM

Julie, on Jun 27 2003, 02:03 PM, said:

So do you propose that these couple of security guards have loaded guns?  If so, I'm not convinced that's much better/worse than letting teachers with training have guns.  As for metal detectors, most schools are too cheap for that.  And if metal detectors are installed, they wouldn't be much of a help by themselves.  A few moments before some crazy person starts shooting, it would inform those at the entrance that the person has something metallic.  If everyone in the school is unarmed, this warning wouldn't be terribly useful.

What I meant was more along the lines of both security guards (who actually are supposed to deal with those situations) and having metal detectors.  And yes, the guards would have guns, but the training they would have would likely be a lot more than the week or two the teachers would get.

--Te
"This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is it vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished, as the once vital voice of the verisimilitude now venerates what they once vilified. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose vis--vis an introduction, and so it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V." -- V, making an first impression

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#37 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 04:26 PM

Vapor Trails, on Jun 28 2003, 12:52 AM, said:

And I'll say this...kids have always been rebellious, but IMNSHO, within the last 10 years or so, kids have grown more than just disrespectful-they've become belligerent and in-your-face. Anyone else feel this way too?

How would you like it if a 10 or 12-year old told you, "Go f*** yourself you mother****n a***hole!!" ?

Now, trying dealing with nearly a dozen kids like that. And that's NOT including some of the violent ones. :(
IMO the reason that alot of kids are like that is because of the Government stepping in and saying. "No, you can't spank your child...even if he is misbehaving. Instead, give him a time out."

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I was growing up...if I got in trouble at school, or anywhere, my worst fear was what my mother was going to do when she found out.

Using your example, if I had cursed out a teacher, even a bus driver, like you described...and the school called my mother and told her that...I wouldn't be here right now.

Since the parents have lost the right to discipline, and by this I mean spanking, their child...kids have sort of gotten out of hand. Some of them anyway.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#38 tennyson

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 04:36 PM

Here's an article from Slate.com that may be illuminating,

http://slate.msn.com/id/27715/
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#39 Gaiate

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 04:38 PM

^

Edited to clarify: I'm responding to LotS. :)

This one I disagree with.  Any child psychologist will tell you that beating your kid because he's misbehaving doesn't help the problem.  Just giving them a time out doesn't do much either, since both are simply negative reinforcement.  It is far better to sit down and talk with them about it.  If they hit another kid or stole something from them, you try and get them to understand how that other person feels.  Once you get them to empathize with other people, and get them to understand that others are people, they are far, far more likely to stop that activity.

Can ya tell I'm a psych major yet. ;)

--Te

Edited by Gaiate, 28 June 2003 - 04:49 PM.

"This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is it vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished, as the once vital voice of the verisimilitude now venerates what they once vilified. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose vis--vis an introduction, and so it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V." -- V, making an first impression

"Dude . . . that was cool." -- My first impression of V

#40 Rov Judicata

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 04:39 PM

^

Bingo. Hence my earlier contention that a certain number of lunatics is unavoidable.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.



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