Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Teachers get preliminary OK to carry weapons

Gun Control Teachers OK permit to carry

  • Please log in to reply
69 replies to this topic

#41 Julie

Julie
  • Islander
  • 777 posts

Posted 28 June 2003 - 04:52 PM

Quote

And I'll say this...kids have always been rebellious, but IMNSHO, within the last 10 years or so, kids have grown more than just disrespectful-they've become belligerent and in-your-face. Anyone else feel this way too?
While reading about ancient Greek mythology in Edith Hamilton's Mythology, I found that their idea of the creation of man also stated that every son is worse than his father, and why this is.  Apparently "kids these days" have been degrading since ancient times.

:cool:

#42 Gaiate

Gaiate

    Spirit Blade

  • Islander
  • 1,003 posts

Posted 28 June 2003 - 04:53 PM

Yes, there will always be some disturbed kids in schools, but then how does adding more volitility to the mix help?  If kids become afraid of the teachers with guns, what stops them from bringing more guns?  You can't deal with mental problems with violence.  You deal with it with treatment.

--Te
"This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is it vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished, as the once vital voice of the verisimilitude now venerates what they once vilified. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose vis--vis an introduction, and so it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V." -- V, making an first impression

"Dude . . . that was cool." -- My first impression of V

#43 Gaiate

Gaiate

    Spirit Blade

  • Islander
  • 1,003 posts

Posted 28 June 2003 - 05:02 PM

Another thing. If these disturbed kids decide they're going to shoot up their school, having a few teachers with guns isn't going to stop them.  All it provides are their first targets.  And I guarantee you, the first time said teachers are looking down the barrel of another gun, they will forget every iota of training they got.

--Te
"This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is it vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished, as the once vital voice of the verisimilitude now venerates what they once vilified. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose vis--vis an introduction, and so it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V." -- V, making an first impression

"Dude . . . that was cool." -- My first impression of V

#44 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 28 June 2003 - 05:04 PM

I  agree with Te one hundred percent.

Lil
Posted Image

#45 G1223

G1223

    The Blunt Object.

  • Dead account
  • 16,164 posts

Posted 28 June 2003 - 05:31 PM

Sorry I see a point where disiclipline is needed.  I do not mean for cussing out a teacher but when they casue injury to another. Explaining why they are being punished is needed.   We live in a society that tries to say "He's just misunderstood or he was loney that is why he murdered fifteen people."

I am not a Student I am a guy who sees being level handed as fair but there are consquences to actions and  that is something every child faces and discovers.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#46 Gaiate

Gaiate

    Spirit Blade

  • Islander
  • 1,003 posts

Posted 28 June 2003 - 05:36 PM

I didn't mean to derail the thread, so I'll just say this: I didn't mean just talk to them and give them no punishment.  But if all you do is spank them or tell them to go sit in a corner, they just develop a sense that if you have power over someone, like a parent has over a child, then that gives you the right to use it however you see fit.  On the other hand, if you talk with them, they start to understand "Hey, I really wouldn't someone to hit me like I hit him."  I wasn't really talking about someone who shot fifteen classmates.  That's a whole other realm.

--Te
"This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is it vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished, as the once vital voice of the verisimilitude now venerates what they once vilified. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose vis--vis an introduction, and so it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V." -- V, making an first impression

"Dude . . . that was cool." -- My first impression of V

#47 Shalamar

Shalamar

    Last Star to the Left and Straight on till Morning

  • Forever Missed
  • 17,644 posts

Posted 28 June 2003 - 07:02 PM

I am going to mention that in the state of Texas, a security guard, registered, (the basic package, not certified as in allowed to bear a fire arm) is required to have 40 hours worth of training,... certification, (well I haven't checked in a few years,) was not much more, plus a slightly more stringent background check.

I was dispatch for security, and a security guard, for about 5 years...believe me I can say that when faced with a gun most of them would have forgotten their training too.  Many I worked with were dedicated professionals, but the ones I wouldn't trust/ count on in a dangerous situation... as far as I could throw them were the greater number...

Now off duty police, working the school as a second job, and not just stationed at the entrances, but as a roving patrol...that might do.
The three most important R's
Respect for One's Self / Respect for Others / Responsibility for One's Words & Actions.

Posted Image

#48 Morrhigan

Morrhigan
  • Islander
  • 1,546 posts

Posted 28 June 2003 - 07:41 PM

I propose a new school system, run by the National Guard.

All staff will have military training, including firearms and hand-to-hand combat. Each will be outfitted with a side-arm and a kevlar vest. The Vice-Principal should be a drill sergeant - who best to deal with disciplinary problems? And none of this detention nonsense. Punishments will include KP (kitchen duty; peel those potatoes, punk!), cleaning the toilets with a toothbrush, and the Brig.

Hey, it could work!

Morrhigan
Posted Image

#49 Norville

Norville
  • Islander
  • 4,501 posts

Posted 29 June 2003 - 03:44 AM

Quote

And I'll say this...kids have always been rebellious, but IMNSHO, within the last 10 years or so, kids have grown more than just disrespectful-they've become belligerent and in-your-face. Anyone else feel this way too?

How would you like it if a 10 or 12-year old told you, "Go f*** yourself you mother****n a***hole!!" ?

I know that I rarely dare to speak to a kid in public, at my job, because I fear that if I dare tell the kid not to run or not to yell, s/he will report me to his/her parents to get me in trouble. "She told me not to run!"

Then, there was the charming case some years back, when there was an hysterically-screaming kid on a bus, I just directed an "Oh, please" glare, and got a "Shut up, b*tch!" from the mother. :glare:

So, hey, anyone, if you're out with your kids and don't like the service you're getting, it could just be that fear of your kids (or your own mouth, under stress) has something to do with it.

Quote

While reading about ancient Greek mythology in Edith Hamilton's Mythology, I found that their idea of the creation of man also stated that every son is worse than his father, and why this is. Apparently "kids these days" have been degrading since ancient times.

Oh, yeah, I remember reading a quote from ancient times that sounded quite like these days, about how terrible and disrespectful all kids were compared to past generations. ;)
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#50 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,681 posts

Posted 29 June 2003 - 04:25 AM

Gaiate, on Jun 28 2003, 01:39 AM, said:

^

Edited to clarify: I'm responding to LotS. :)

This one I disagree with.  Any child psychologist will tell you that beating your kid because he's misbehaving doesn't help the problem.  Just giving them a time out doesn't do much either, since both are simply negative reinforcement.  It is far better to sit down and talk with them about it.  If they hit another kid or stole something from them, you try and get them to understand how that other person feels.  Once you get them to empathize with other people, and get them to understand that others are people, they are far, far more likely to stop that activity.

Can ya tell I'm a psych major yet. ;)

--Te
I also don't mean to derail this thread, so I'll respond to your post, and leave it there.

I have to disagree with you here again. I can't speak for others, but, everytime I got "my butt whipped" by my mother, I knew exactly what I was getting it whipped for. She made it crystal clear...before she made me get my father's belt.

And, knowing how I was then, if she had simply tried to talk with me, and try to make me "Understand" I would've just "yesed" her to death, and then gone on to do more trouble. Because, if I got caught all I'd face would be a lecture. The only fear, that kept me from doing even crazier stuff, was my parents.

Nowadays, the whole concept of "Sparing the rod" has definately led to "Spoiling the child".

I even remember one time, when I was getting disciplined for stealing, I told my mother: "This is Child Abuse"

No lie, my mother stopped mid swing, went and grabbed the phone book, and then asked me if I'd like the number to CPS. I shut up, because I figured she was definately serious.

I'd also like to point out, I'm not saying that for every little thing a kid needs to be spanked...That's not it at all. It should be up to the parents to determine when, and if, that's the appropriate punishment. And, even then, you don't hit the kid as hard as you can.

When I was getting disciplined, I'd knew even though it hurt, she wasn't using her full strength.

Without that "Fear" of "What will Mom and Dad do to me if I get caught" kids just rampage, doing whatever they feel like, because they know, in the end, they're not going to get in trouble.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#51 jon3831

jon3831

    Iolanthe's evil conservative twin

  • Islander
  • 2,601 posts

Posted 01 July 2003 - 01:13 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Jun 27 2003, 11:41 AM, said:

For example. Say two students are fist fighting in the hall. Now, Teacher A, who has gone through all the background checks, gun training, ect tries to stop them. In the course of his trying to break up the fight, one of the students manages to grab the gun from the teacher...
That's a classic argument against allowing concealed carry. And for it, I submit this:

1) If it was just a fistfight, the teacher should not have drawn the weapon. Use of lethal force is only allowed when there is an immediate danger to life. The weapon should have been holstered.

2) How would the students know it was there? Concealed means exactly that. Concealed. Means no one can see it. In many, many states that allow concealed carry, if someone "makes" you, that's grounds to lose your permit. Heck, in some cases, even *telling* people you're carrying is grounds to lose your permit.

3) Holsters typically have thumb break straps on them to keep the weapon in place. It takes training to open the strap and draw to get the weapon out. Otherwise, it'll hang up or the strap won't break, or any number of other things. IOW, even if the student figures out the teacher is carrying, it's extremely unlikely he'd be able to get the weapon out before the teacher could react.

As to the other parts of this thread, I'll say this.

Concealed carry permit holders are, for the extreme majority, the most law abiding and mellow citizens you'd ever want to meet. Think about it. These are people who have gone through the *legal* requirements necessary to carry a weapon, and in some states have taken on *personal* responsibility for the safety of others [1]. If they wanted to carry a piece, they could do so easily, but not legally.

Criminals who are motivated to commit mass murder aren't usually constrained by the law. And people aren't clairvoyant enough to forsee these things happening. After all, no one saw Columbine or Jonesboro coming, right?

Quote

We have a problem with weapons in schools so let's ADD to the problem?

Quote

The fact that this sort of law has to be legislated makes me think how screwed up the society really is.

Quote

Sure, let's just start handing out guns. That will fix it all. More guns in the classroom!

Fact of the matter is, there *are* guns in the classrooms. No amount of laws or registration or repealing elements of the bill of rights is going to change that.

Look at how much good the gun control laws in California did for Los Angeles. Look how well gun control is working in Baltimore. Look how well it's working in Washington, DC.

There is a problem. There are some students that are motivated to violence. Does it need to be worked on? Absolutely it does. But another fact is, you're not going to get to everyone. No matter how many programs are instituted, it's still not going to be completely effective. And what happens until they're put into place? Are we supposed to let our children go undefended because some lawmaker said that schools are gun-free zones? Tell that to Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. After all, I'm sure they didn't know that guns weren't allowed in school.

Any advantage that can be taken to stop these things in the early stages should be taken.

Now then, for the record, there's a couple reasons why I think this is an extremely good idea.

First of all, I went to high school in the midst of the Jonesboro and Paducah incidents. Those incidents prompted a friend and I to have several in-depth conversations regarding doing something similar at the school we went to. A few walk-arounds and some more conversations later, we determined that it would have been incredibly easy for someone to kill a lot of people within a few minutes... Certainly not enough time for security or police to react. These conversations also went into the possibilities of escape. Remember: the Jonesboro shooters relied on people streaming out of the buildings during a fire alarm to concentrate people at the exits, and they shot them as they were coming out. We decided that with all the nooks and crannies in our 60-year-old school's hallways that the best thing to do was lock yourself in a classroom and put as much bulk between you and the doors and windows as possible. Would it be a guarantee? Absolutely not. That assumes you're in class, or have ready access to a classroom, which leads me to my second point.

Shortly after I graduated, I had the opportunity to participate as an observer in a drill conducted during the summer by the local sheriff's department and fire department simulating a Columbine-type incident. If there was one thing I learned, it's that these things happen faaaar too quickly for the police to respond and stop it. I can remember watching the busses full of "casualties" come down off the hill into the staging area. Many had yellow tags, meaning they'd probably live. More had red ones, meaning that they needed care *now* and still might not make it. And quite a few (probably 20 or so) had black ones. If it had been a real disaster with real victims, instead of drama students playacting, there would've been 20 families who had to bury loved ones. That really didn't sink in for me until I saw them using a yearbook to identify the "dead".

*That's* why I think this is a good idea. It's not about gunfights in the cafeteria, or intimidating students. It's about saving lives. And I'm a firm believer that this will do just that.

[1] In Texas, and other states, concealed carry permit holders have a duty to try and stop crimes in progress. In other states, though, there is a duty to retreat. You must exercise every option available to you to extracate yourself from a scenario before deadly force is authorized.

EDIT: Added a sentence, remembered my footnote, and spelling

Edited by jon3831, 01 July 2003 - 02:44 PM.

"The issue is not war and peace, rather, how best to   preserve our freedom."
                    --General Russell E. Dougherty, USAF

WWCELeMD?

#52 Rov Judicata

Rov Judicata

    Crassly Irresponsible and Indifferent

  • Islander
  • 15,720 posts

Posted 01 July 2003 - 01:17 PM

Bingo Jon. Thanks for expressing it so clearly.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#53 Nikcara

Nikcara

    confused little imp

  • Islander
  • 3,500 posts

Posted 01 July 2003 - 02:58 PM

Ok, I'm going to speak from some personal experiance, so this may be very pertinant to the issue, or maybe I'm just a freak.

Reading LOTS eariler made me think about my own childhood, when I had the fear of getting beaten into a bloody pulp every time I came home.  If I ever did something wrong, it was made very clear to me what I did wrong, and then I was thrown into a wall or some other such display of force.  Needless to say, I am very pro-government coming in and saying don't hit your kids.  Anyways, every since I was about the age of 7or 8 every teacher I had thought I was this little punk of a kid who didn't do my homework and talked back.  And I did talk back, not because I didn't fear the punishment, but because I was so scared I felt backed into a corner whenever a teacher began lecturing/scolding me and I would retaliate.

I started attempting sucide at around the age of 11, so I think I qualified as pretty messed up for my age.  Never worked though (obviously).  It was around this time that my mom divorced my stepdad (who was the one who abused me) but the divorce was still going through it's dying stages when I got to highschool and was a long, painful, messy thing.

So here's my general mental state when I enter highschool: I don't care over much about living or dying, I jump at every loud noise, I'm incredibly antisocial and cynical and have this nasty habit of hitting anyone who does anything that maked me more nervous.  This inculded simple eye contact.

Luckily, I found some friends who didn't mind getting punched rather often and who helped me more then I could ever give them enough credit for.  BUT what if I had never found those few special people who could help me so much?  I would probably have remained that skiddish for a great deal longer.  Now, if I had thought that my teachers were carrying guns it wouldn't have mattered if they did or didn't have them.  It would have scared me even more.  The one place that was safe for me would no longer have been.  Teachers that I just thought were mean I would probably consider a threat to my life (remember, I was not of a healthy state of mind, perceptions are what matter sometimes).  I probably would have found some way to bring and carry a weapon just to feel safe.  And if that happened it doesn't seem like too far a stretch of the imagination for some teacher to be scolding me for not doing my homework or whatever, my fear of everything got overwhelming, and I would pull out whatever weapon I had and there goes a teacher.  Or a student.  Or (more likely for me, since I don't lash out at other people as much as I do myself) one day just snapped from all the fear and killed myself?  In all those cases it wouldn't have mattered if the teacher ever even HAD a gun - just the thought that they MIGHT could be more dangerous then the actual fact.

So yeah, I'm very against the whole idea of teachers being allowed to have guns on campus.  More guns really don't help anything


oh yeah, add to reply to

Quote

Look at how much good the gun control laws in California did for Los Angeles. Look how well gun control is working in Baltimore. Look how well it's working in Washington, DC.

I look instead to places like Japan and England.
We have fourty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse  -- Rudyard Kipling

Develop compassion for your enemies, that is genuine compassion.  Limited compassion cannot produce this altruism.  -- H. H. the Dalai Lama

#54 Gaiate

Gaiate

    Spirit Blade

  • Islander
  • 1,003 posts

Posted 01 July 2003 - 07:56 PM

Quote

That's a classic argument against allowing concealed carry. And for it, I submit this:

1) If it was just a fistfight, the teacher should not have drawn the weapon. Use of lethal force is only allowed when there is an immediate danger to life. The weapon should have been holstered.

He didn't say the hypothetic teacher pulled the weapon.  Simply having it provided the added threat.

Quote

2) How would the students know it was there? Concealed means exactly that. Concealed. Means no one can see it. In many, many states that allow concealed carry, if someone "makes" you, that's grounds to lose your permit. Heck, in some cases, even *telling* people you're carrying is grounds to lose your permit.

If this law passes, everyone will know about it.  Including students.  From there, it would merely be whether or not this particular teacher decided to arm his/herself.  If the teacher is trying to break up a fist fight, they're mostl likely going to be physically putting themself inbetween the students.  It's easy to feel a gun on someone, even when you're not looking for it.

Quote

3) Holsters typically have thumb break straps on them to keep the weapon in place. It takes training to open the strap and draw to get the weapon out. Otherwise, it'll hang up or the strap won't break, or any number of other things. IOW, even if the student figures out the teacher is carrying, it's extremely unlikely he'd be able to get the weapon out before the teacher could react.

And what if it's a 120 lb. person who hasn't worked out a day in twenty years?  What if it's a 60 year old professor?  They couldn't possibly overpower a 16 or 17 year old kid hyped up on adrenaline.  Better yet, a hotheaded athlete who likely works out everyday after school.  If that kid wanted to, s/he would get that gun without a problem.

Quote

Concealed carry permit holders are, for the extreme majority, the most law abiding and mellow citizens you'd ever want to meet. Think about it. These are people who have gone through the *legal* requirements necessary to carry a weapon, and in some states have taken on *personal* responsibility for the safety of others [1]. If they wanted to carry a piece, they could do so easily, but not legally.

Mellow simply doesn't come into play in a high stress situation.  You could be the most relaxed guy on the planet, but when you're in a life or death situation, your heart rate sky rockets, your adrenaline pumps, and you don't think straight.  It's the fight-or-flight response.

I tend to be a pretty mellow person, but if I feel threatened, if someone is pointing a gun at me, I'm not mellow.  No one could be, and especially no one who has no real training in those kinds of situations.  A week of firearms training doesn't count.

Quote

Criminals who are motivated to commit mass murder aren't usually constrained by the law. And people aren't clairvoyant enough to forsee these things happening. After all, no one saw Columbine or Jonesboro coming, right?

Your point being?  Do you honestly think that if the teachers at Columbine and Jonesboro were armed that those tragedies wouldn't have happened?  Even police officers and SWAT members miss sometimes, and those are the men and women whose job it is to deal with those events.  Now take an ordinary teacher, and put them in the same scenario.  I can easily see that teacher firing bravely at the shooters, only to accidently hit nearly as many innocent people.

Quote

Fact of the matter is, there *are* guns in the classrooms. No amount of laws or registration or repealing elements of the bill of rights is going to change that.

Actually, I can think of one or two things that would make a significant dent, but I highly doubt they'd go over too well with most people.  Suffice to say, I believe that if the schools are that worried, they can hire a couple of trained security guards (personally, I like Shal's idea of off-duty cops) and install metal detectors.  And I don't think that saying the schools are too cheap is an excuse for anything.  Their primary concern has to be the safety of everyone in those schools.  I don't buy for a second that they can't squeeze a little more out of their budgets to protect their students and teachers.

Quote

Look at how much good the gun control laws in California did for Los Angeles. Look how well gun control is working in Baltimore. Look how well it's working in Washington, DC.

Gun control laws of one state are worthy diddly when the next state over has gun shows in convention centers selling AK-47s and M-16s at every table to anyone who cares to make the drive.

Quote

There is a problem. There are some students that are motivated to violence. Does it need to be worked on? Absolutely it does. But another fact is, you're not going to get to everyone. No matter how many programs are instituted, it's still not going to be completely effective. And what happens until they're put into place? Are we supposed to let our children go undefended because some lawmaker said that schools are gun-free zones? Tell that to Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. After all, I'm sure they didn't know that guns weren't allowed in school.

No one said we should leave kids defenseless.  Like I said before, security guards aren't a bad way to go.

Quote

First of all, I went to high school in the midst of the Jonesboro and Paducah incidents. Those incidents prompted a friend and I to have several in-depth conversations regarding doing something similar at the school we went to. A few walk-arounds and some more conversations later, we determined that it would have been incredibly easy for someone to kill a lot of people within a few minutes... Certainly not enough time for security or police to react. These conversations also went into the possibilities of escape. Remember: the Jonesboro shooters relied on people streaming out of the buildings during a fire alarm to concentrate people at the exits, and they shot them as they were coming out. We decided that with all the nooks and crannies in our 60-year-old school's hallways that the best thing to do was lock yourself in a classroom and put as much bulk between you and the doors and windows as possible. Would it be a guarantee? Absolutely not. That assumes you're in class, or have ready access to a classroom, which leads me to my second point.

Shortly after I graduated, I had the opportunity to participate as an observer in a drill conducted during the summer by the local sheriff's department and fire department simulating a Columbine-type incident. If there was one thing I learned, it's that these things happen faaaar too quickly for the police to respond and stop it. I can remember watching the busses full of "casualties" come down off the hill into the staging area. Many had yellow tags, meaning they'd probably live. More had red ones, meaning that they needed care *now* and still might not make it. And quite a few (probably 20 or so) had black ones. If it had been a real disaster with real victims, instead of drama students playacting, there would've been 20 families who had to bury loved ones. That really didn't sink in for me until I saw them using a yearbook to identify the "dead".

I readily admit that these things happen faster than the police can really respond to.  However, I would never want someone unqualified to respond to do so.  It could easily make things far worse.  

Quote

*That's* why I think this is a good idea. It's not about gunfights in the cafeteria, or intimidating students. It's about saving lives. And I'm a firm believer that this will do just that.

The problem is, things never turn out to be exactly what they're meant to be about.  This law may be about protecting students and faculty, but I see the endless possibilities for abuse and added tragedy far out weighing to potential safety.

--Te
"This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is it vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished, as the once vital voice of the verisimilitude now venerates what they once vilified. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose vis--vis an introduction, and so it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V." -- V, making an first impression

"Dude . . . that was cool." -- My first impression of V

#55 Echo

Echo
  • Islander
  • 983 posts

Posted 01 July 2003 - 08:38 PM

Why is it that solutions to a gun problem invariably seem to involve guns? Weapons legislation works. Where I am, it is illegal to carry a gun without a license. In the entire history of this country, there has been one school shooting. It was at a University, not a high school, and the gunman was an international student (and thus had serious language difficulties, most likely a contributing factor in his not being identified as a risk). After the shooting, he killed himself. I don't recall how it was he got the gun.

I am nineteen years old, and I do not recall ever seeing someone hold a gun, aside from James Bond films and cop shows. Policemen have weapons, but they are never out of their holsters. I went to high school, and I felt safe the entire time. I sincerely doubt there was anything more deadly than woodwork tools and kitchen utensils in the school through my entire six year stint.

No guns, no shootings. The way I see it, the whole business is remarkably simple.

That's my $0.02 anyway,
Echo

#56 Guest-2112st-Guest

Guest-2112st-Guest
  • Guest

Posted 02 July 2003 - 04:25 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on Jun 28 2003, 05:27 AM, said:

Vapor Trails, on Jun 28 2003, 12:52 AM, said:



And I'll say this...kids have always been rebellious, but IMNSHO, within the last 10 years or so, kids have grown more than just disrespectful-they've become belligerent and in-your-face. Anyone else feel this way too?

How would you like it if a 10 or 12-year old told you, "Go f*** yourself you mother****n a***hole!!" ?

Now, trying dealing with nearly a dozen kids like that. And that's NOT including some of the violent ones. :(
IMO the reason that alot of kids are like that is because of the Government stepping in and saying. "No, you can't spank your child...even if he is misbehaving. Instead, give him a time out."

That's part of it, but I think the main reason is that most people are MORONS. And many of these idiots are parents, who wouldn't know common sense if it bit them in the hindquarters.  :angry:  :sarcasm:

Edited by Vapor Trails, 02 July 2003 - 04:26 AM.


#57 Kevin Street

Kevin Street
  • Islander
  • 6,256 posts

Posted 02 July 2003 - 05:04 AM

Hmmm, just playing Devil's Advocate for a minute here. If it's a good thing for teachers to bring their own guns to school, shouldn't all teachers be armed?

A few days back, I was on a bus that got stopped by the police. They boarded and started looking for a couple of suspects, and the thing that surprised me was how nervous I was. These were duly authorized agents of the law who were there on official business, but my eyes kept straying to the guns on their hips. I couldn't help wondering what would happen if one of them lost it and pulled out that weapon, what it would be like to get shot, and so on. The point is, these people had the power of life and death over everyone on that bus, and that coloured the way they interacted with us, and the way we interacted with them. No one on the bus gave them any trouble, believe me.

That sort of thing is fine for police officers, who often deal with violent criminals and other antisocial nutjobs, but do you really want teachers to have that same power of life and death over their students? If teachers gain the right to carry concealed weapons, then you never know if they've got a gun or not, and all teachers start to take on the authority of an armed guard. The relationship between teachers and students changes forever, and becomes more confrontational.

I don't know, maybe the danger to teachers in the certain parts of the US is so great they need to carry weapons into the classroom, but to me it sounds like a defeat of the fundamental relationship between people in a civil society. Right from the start, we'd be teaching kids that authority should only be respected if it can use deadly force. But in any case, if they have to carry guns, don't make them hidden. Let that teacher carry the gun on their hip just like a police officer or soldier and stop pretending.
Per aspera ad astra

#58 gadfly

gadfly

    Romantic Progressive

  • Islander
  • 1,333 posts

Posted 02 July 2003 - 05:44 AM

Quote

They boarded and started looking for a couple of suspects, and the thing that surprised me was how nervous I was.

Yes, I've been in that situation too and it is very nerve-wracking regardless of how competent, how-level headed, or how well-trained the user is.  It's not comfortable.

As a former public school classroom teacher I find this appalling and downright frightening.  The majority of the teachers I taught with were intelligent, caring, level-headed individuals but there were a few who I'd be afraid to let handle a sharp knife much less a loaded gun!  Most districts are in such need for teachers (and these are usually the "problem" districts) that they'll hire just about anybody with only a cursory background check. I wouldn't teach in a school district that allowed, much less encouraged, teachers to bring guns to school.

If the school is that bad then they need to rethink their policy of who attends what kind of school.  In the end, you have to consider the majority of students who are not troublemakers and have alternatives for those who are.  If anything is to be done about the state of education in situations like this then parents and students will have to start viewing education as a privilege and not a right.  

The public school that I last taught at required parents to "apply" to the school in advance with anyone from the city eligible. The school was located in that city's verison of the "projects" and was a known rough area.  My sister's boyfriend, a city policeman, wanted me to quit.  There were no entry requirements to attend other than the application and a drawing of applicants to ensure that the school mirrored the ethnic makeup of the city. It was amazing the difference this process made in parental and therefore student attitude.  The very idea that you couldn't just attend but had to apply had a powerful impact on behavior and involvement.  Of course, the school did have other selling points: we wrote all of our own curriculum, earned grants for field trips, focused on the interests and needs of the community, fostered community involvement, and required ongoing portfolio development over the three years the students were with us.  The kids loved being there and we did too.

#59 jon3831

jon3831

    Iolanthe's evil conservative twin

  • Islander
  • 2,601 posts

Posted 02 July 2003 - 08:18 AM

Gaiate, on Jul 1 2003, 01:57 AM, said:

He didn't say the hypothetic teacher pulled the weapon.  Simply having it provided the added threat.

But the hypothetic teacher trying to break the fight up would be seen as an escalation. The law applies differently to people who carry concealed weapons. They're not allowed to escalate the situation. The idea is to defuse it. Best to let someone else get between them.

Quote

What if it's a 60 year old professor?  They couldn't possibly overpower a 16 or 17 year old kid hyped up on adrenaline.  Better yet, a hotheaded athlete who likely works out everyday after school.  If that kid wanted to, s/he would get that gun without a problem.

Why is the 60-year old professor putting himself into that situation when he isn't physically able to deal with it? This whole scenario is a stretch anyway, relying on quite a few "ifs". Any situation has that potential. What if a student decides to brain a teacher with a nearby chair? Does that mean that the chairs shouldn't be there? What if a teacher "snaps" and slams a student's head into a table or stabs him in the eye with a pen? Does that mean we should ban tables and pens in schools?

I think we have a fundamental disconnect on our ideas of firearms. To me, firearms are tools, nothing more. I don't ascribe evil intent to them, nor do I blame them for society's ills.

Quote

I tend to be a pretty mellow person, but if I feel threatened, if someone is pointing a gun at me, I'm not mellow.  No one could be, and especially no one who has no real training in those kinds of situations.  A week of firearms training doesn't count.

We're not necessarily talking about a week of training here... Frankly, I think you'd be surprised at how seriously most CCW holders take their responsibilities. From what I've seen in my personal experience, there are quite a number (I'd even venture the majority) of CCW holders practice more with their firearms than most law enforcement officers. Again, these are people who have made a conscious decision to take their self-defense into their own hands. They have made an enormous decision in terms of their way of life, and they train so accordingly. Now, will there be abberations? Sure. There always are. There are those that made the remark that there are some teachers they wouldn't trust with a pair of scissors. I can say the same thing about some law enforcement officers.

Quote

Your point being?  Do you honestly think that if the teachers at Columbine and Jonesboro were armed that those tragedies wouldn't have happened?

No, I'm not saying it wouldn't have happened. I'm saying that there was a potential to stop the situation before it got worse.

Quote

Even police officers and SWAT members miss sometimes, and those are the men and women whose job it is to deal with those events.  Now take an ordinary teacher, and put them in the same scenario.  I can easily see that teacher firing bravely at the shooters, only to accidently hit nearly as many innocent people.

So you'd rather have any number of innocent casualties caused by the psycho student than one innocent casualty caused by a teacher defending his class? We're still delving too far into "what if" territory. "Nearly as many" doesn't work here. You keep saying that the "lack of training" will cause just as many casualties, but isn't it possible that the teacher's mere presence and actions will stop a situation before it gets worse?

I'm not saying there won't be deaths. That would be irresponsible of me. I'm saying that there's a possibility to prevent further loss of life.

Quote

Suffice to say, I believe that if the schools are that worried, they can hire a couple of trained security guards (personally, I like Shal's idea of off-duty cops) and install metal detectors.

Armed security is a good start. Local schools here have school police who are Class-I Peace Officers. However, more often than not, they're not on any one campus, but roving around between. See my point about things happening too quickly for police to respond. In order for armed security to do any good, they must maintain a strong enough presence on campus.

Quote

Their primary concern has to be the safety of everyone in those schools.  I don't buy for a second that they can't squeeze a little more out of their budgets to protect their students and teachers.

Agreed 100%. The safety of students is at the very heart of this debate. We just have different theories as to how we should go about it.

Quote

Gun control laws of one state are worthy diddly when the next state over has gun shows in convention centers selling AK-47s and M-16s at every table to anyone who cares to make the drive.

Source please? Private transactions of firearms are covered under existing federal and state laws. And for the record, AK-47s and M-16s in the military form are illegal under the National Firearms Act of 1934 as automatic weapons. They can be purchased, but not without an extensive background check and a federal license. State laws can outlaw them entirely. In fact, in California (and other states), firearms that *look* like AK-47s and M-16s are illegal.

Quote

I readily admit that these things happen faster than the police can really respond to.  However, I would never want someone unqualified to respond to do so.  It could easily make things far worse.

What's your standard of qualification? The state in question has set its standards, and the people of that state are happy with it. Again, I'd rather take my chances of a teacher shooting me accidentally while aiming at a psycho than having that psycho kill me intentionally. Fatalistic? Maybe. But if even *one* life was saved, it would be worth it, then, IMHO.

Quote

The problem is, things never turn out to be exactly what they're meant to be about.  This law may be about protecting students and faculty, but I see the endless possibilities for abuse and added tragedy far out weighing to potential safety.

You've got a point about things not turning out exactly as they're intended. Does that mean we should stop trying?

I do think we need to remember that this is one school district in one county in one state that is considering this. If that school board thinks it's a good thing for them, who are we to judge? We're all in different situations than those people, and after all, they are the best ones to judge their situation, and thus are the best ones to react accordingly.

EDIT: Fix tags

Edited by jon3831, 02 July 2003 - 08:19 AM.

"The issue is not war and peace, rather, how best to   preserve our freedom."
                    --General Russell E. Dougherty, USAF

WWCELeMD?

#60 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 02 July 2003 - 09:29 AM

As far as I know it is currently legal in New York for a CCP holder to carry their weapons in a school as long as they have the consent of the administrator of that facility. As far as Im not aware of any incident involving any students being harmed as a result of the actions of a teacher with a CCP. In fact the last big case of students being placed in danger by a weapon in a New York school that I know of was a NYPD officer.  Apparently she pulled her weapon to show it to the class and being a Glock with their wonderful safety it was accidentally discharged.  

Quote

Jon: Remember: the Jonesboro shooters relied on people streaming out of the buildings during a fire alarm to concentrate people at the exits, and they shot them as they were coming out.

A big problem there is that the standard procedures for evacuating a building for fire or other health threats are severely ill suited for dealing with snipers or shooters in the building.  I worked Health and Safety for awhile and had that type of conversation with him about how the procedures we went through to keep people safe could cause further problems in that type of scenario.  The very gist of it is you try to get as many people out of the building as quickly as possible through marked/preplanned exits.  Then in a perfect controlled situation you gather them outside the building at a safe distance to perform a head count and then move them away if the situation warrants it.  So you are tending toward concentrating people in locations that are clearly known ahead of time.  

Quote

Jon: We decided that with all the nooks and crannies in our 60-year-old school's hallways that the best thing to do was lock yourself in a classroom and put as much bulk between you and the doors and windows as possible.

Id tend to agree.  Though ideal situation Id suggest putting people on either side of the door and have them sufficiently back so someone on the other side of the door cant see them.  At least then you have a fair chance of maybe one of you getting a single gunmen before they get you.  

Quote

Jon: That assumes you're in class, or have ready access to a classroom, which leads me to my second point.

Along with knowledge of what is unfolding and a sufficiently strong door to stop an attempt to force it open.  


Quote

Gaiate If this law passes, everyone will know about it. Including students. From there, it would merely be whether or not this particular teacher decided to arm his/herself.

And said student is going to frisk the teacher while in the fight in an attempt to find a weapon that is concealed on that teacher?  Sure a concealed pistol wont make it through a through frisking and search but a casual brushing or scuffle in a fight isnt really going to cut it for finding the weapon.  

Quote

Gaiate: It's easy to feel a gun on someone, even when you're not looking for it. .


If you happen to put your hand right on it perhaps but other than that most concealed weapons are going to be fairly had to detect especially in the heat of a fight.  In addition the weapon will be under at least one layer of clothes so they have to get their hands under that and then work the holster by feel.  Then they have to figure out how to operate the weapons and safety system.  


Quote

Gaiate: And what if it's a 120 lb. person who hasn't worked out a day in twenty years? What if it's a 60 year old professor? They couldn't possibly overpower a 16 or 17 year old kid hyped up on adrenaline. Better yet, a hotheaded athlete who likely works out everyday after school. If that kid wanted to, s/he would get that gun without a problem.

Most schools that I know of have procedures in place to keep teachers and other school officials from attempting to physically intervene in a fight where if attacked they would be incapable of basic defense of themselves.  

Quote

Gaiate: No one said we should leave kids defenseless. Like I said before, security guards aren't a bad way to go.

Ive worked at places that had glorified rent a cop Security Guards that are armed and they arent as good as some people claim they are.  As Shal noted for many of these jobs they have minimal training in firearms or procedures for using them and are often worse off than a CCP.  Secondarily assume you do place Security Guards at the front of the school with metal detectors.  They are now in a fixed location that is well known and probably are going to be the first victims of someone who is attempting to shoot their way in the door.  A random CCP(s) in the school results in the situation being one where any teacher or other person working there might have a weapon and an attacker has no idea who might be the one attempting to put a bullet in them.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Gun Control, Teachers, OK permit to carry

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users