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"Saddam Hussein was not Hitler"

Saddam Hussein Hitler Comparison Iraq

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#21 Rhea

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 08:32 AM

Drew, on Jun 27 2003, 02:30 PM, said:

Belbo, on Jun 27 2003, 04:12 PM, said:

There's a quite simple reason why Hitler remains the scariest of them all - a democracy actually voted him into power. He then managed to corrupt a modern, western nation with a rich cultural history through both a ghastly charisma and a calculated appeal to the worst of human instincts, with results of which we're all well aware.
A valid argument. Best one yet, IMHO. However, I was going to use the same argument to suggest that Hitler's was therefore a more "civilized" (for lack of a better word) evil, whereas Saddam, et al, are a more barbaric form. It's a toss up which version you find to be the more evil "evil."
I disagree completely. Hitler's regime was so corrupt that Saddam isn't even in the same ball park.

Hitler exterminated outright 6 million Jews. But overall, by genocide, the killing of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, 'euthanasia,' starvation, exposure, medical experiments, terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from about 15,000,000 to over 31,600,000 people, most likely closer to 21 million men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Czechs, Italians, Poles, Frenchmen, Ukrainians, etc).

The Nazis did things that could make Saddam look like Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm!  :eek2:  :eh:

And civilized? I don't calling making lampshades and other paraphanalia out of human skin civilized.

Edited by Rhea, 28 June 2003 - 09:10 AM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#22 Drew

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 08:43 AM

Well, I said I was going to use the same argument . . . but I didn't. :angel:
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#23 GiGi

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 08:57 AM

What Rhea said.  Just watch the History channel :wacko:

Indeed, a Jewish friend of mine related some tales of Nazi atrocities that I cannot type, in fact I will be haunted by the images forever and don't want to pass them on.

sigh...

Edited by chiron777, 28 June 2003 - 08:58 AM.

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#24 Rov Judicata

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 09:00 AM

chiron777, on Jun 27 2003, 02:58 PM, said:

What Rhea said.  Just watch the History channel :wacko:
Many maintain that the H in the lower right hand corner of said channel stands for "Hitler".

Rov defies anybody to watch 24 hours of the history channel without at least one mention of World War II.
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#25 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 11:32 AM

Ogami, on Jun 27 2003, 07:47 PM, said:

The important comparison is not with Hussein to Hitler, they were different men of different times and circumstances, as Zack may be wont to say.

The real comparison, adopted by president Bush, is of those worthless cowardly nations of today who had equivalents during the 1930s, those leaders who worked to appease a potential mass murderer rather than deal with him. We dealt with him in World War II, we dealt with him today so he wouldn't be the next Hitler.

Whether free nations act against a man with clearly aggressive behavior is up to them. The allies chose not to act until it was too late in World War II, hundreds of millions died needlessly and the corpse of Communist slavery got a breath of life from its new conquered territories. That lesson apparently is lost on a great many leaders and countries. Thank goodness Bush (a 'C' student) knows history better than they do and acted.

Chew on that, Chirac and the rest. Bush is a better student of history than you knuckleheads.

-Ogami
Its rare that I do this, but I have to agree with you, one hundred and ten per cent.

After World War One, in another fight against totalitarianism milistarism many people sweared they would never fight a world war again. (Such as the oxford agreement that they would under no circumstance fight for King and Country). It was honerable, it was moral- and now, it seems so f@cking stupid. Many leaders seem to have prefered to condem the WW1 Generals as enept bunglers, condem the millions of men who died defending democracy against the aggression of a militaristic, autocratic Germany as a futile- and, for all their morals and genually altruistic motives, condem another generation of men to total war.
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#26 Rhea

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 02:45 PM

Ogami, on Jun 27 2003, 12:47 PM, said:

The important comparison is not with Hussein to Hitler, they were different men of different times and circumstances, as Zack may be wont to say.

The real comparison, adopted by president Bush, is of those worthless cowardly nations of today who had equivalents during the 1930s, those leaders who worked to appease a potential mass murderer rather than deal with him. We dealt with him in World War II, we dealt with him today so he wouldn't be the next Hitler.

Whether free nations act against a man with clearly aggressive behavior is up to them. The allies chose not to act until it was too late in World War II, hundreds of millions died needlessly and the corpse of Communist slavery got a breath of life from its new conquered territories. That lesson apparently is lost on a great many leaders and countries. Thank goodness Bush (a 'C' student) knows history better than they do and acted.

Chew on that, Chirac and the rest. Bush is a better student of history than you knuckleheads.

-Ogami
That's an interesting thought. Which countries are we talking about? The US sat out half the war claiming it wasn't our fight. We made up for it when we finally got into it, but there wasn't much nobility in sitting around twiddling our thumbs while people were dying.

We didn't appease Hitler like other nations, but we had to be dragged into the war kicking and screaming.

Edited by Rhea, 28 June 2003 - 02:45 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#27 Ogami

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 08:51 PM

Belbo wrote:

There's a quite simple reason why Hitler remains the scariest of them all - a democracy actually voted him into power.

But that leaves out the bulk of the details, Hitler's party rigged elections and subverted the democratic process through intimidation and thuggery. His schemes for absolute power were carefully hidden until it was too late, and then powerful men went along with it thinking it would restore Germany's power. It's not a natural sequence from Hitler's party winning a few votes to starting up the gas chambers. Democracy was not in play there.

-Ogami

#28 Ogami

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 08:54 PM

Talkie Toaster wrote:

Its rare that I do this, but I have to agree with you, one hundred and ten per cent.

May it happen with greater frequency.  :cool:

After World War One, in another fight against totalitarianism milistarism many people sweared they would never fight a world war again. (Such as the oxford agreement that they would under no circumstance fight for King and Country). It was honerable, it was moral- and now, it seems so f@cking stupid. Many leaders seem to have prefered to condem the WW1 Generals as enept bunglers, condem the millions of men who died defending democracy against the aggression of a militaristic, autocratic Germany as a futile- and, for all their morals and genually altruistic motives, condem another generation of men to total war.

Quite true. One of the most fascinating of Winston Churchill's books is his history of World War I, from his perspective at the admiralcy. He notes the terrible mistakes of that war, the seeds that he saw even then being planted for World War II. He also thought those 'four years' were the most exciting of his life, but he wrote that sentiment in 1920. If only he knew how much more interesting his life would get after that...

-Ogami

#29 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 09:31 AM

Ogami, on Jun 28 2003, 09:55 AM, said:

I'm currently borrowing a copy of Churchills "The World Crisis" Vol 1. I'll certainly give it to Churchill that he knows how to write! My most memorable moment was when it was found the that Royal Navy's store of propellent had an absolutely feeble guard; and could have been overpowered by 20 determined Germans.  :eek2:
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#30 bandit

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 02:54 PM

Ogami, on Jun 28 2003, 09:52 AM, said:

But that leaves out the bulk of the details, Hitler's party rigged elections and subverted the democratic process through intimidation and thuggery.
-Ogami
Ok, slightly off topic, but we must be careful.
That sounds like what nearly happened in another election a bit more recently...

#31 Delvo

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 03:15 PM

bandit, on Jun 29 2003, 09:55 PM, said:

Ogami, on Jun 28 2003, 09:52 AM, said:


But that leaves out the bulk of the details, Hitler's party rigged elections and subverted the democratic process through intimidation and thuggery.
-Ogami
Ok, slightly off topic, but we must be careful.
That sounds like what nearly happened in another election a bit more recently...
So, tossing out a bizarre baseless drive-by accusation that has nothing to do with the topic at hand is your idea of being "careful"?

#32 Ogami

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 11:36 PM

Bandit's right, I also thought of what some would say about the 2000 election the moment I wrote it. -sigh-

We agree on the 2000 election, but for different candidates. I live in Florida, and I watched as Algore's sleazy team of lawyers descended on my state looking for loopholes to exploit and take to court. Heck, they argued that Florida's election laws were wrong, needed to be changed to reflect better law, and then the results of the change be applied to the previous election. It amazes me that sane people thought they could change an election law and retroactively apply it to a prior election, not the next one, but that's what Gore's team argued before the Florida Supreme Court. That if anything was on the line of the Beer Hall Putzch.

How fortunate the U.S. Supreme Court decided Algore couldn't sap away months from the next president's term, and cut off his indefinite recounts. For the record, if not the billionth time, Bush won every recount in Florida, and is the legitimate elected President of the United States. Algore and his team failed to subvert democracy, and the process of elections as defined in the United States Constitution. The fact that he was willing to use the Constitution like tissue paper simply out of personal gain proved he was unqualified to lead.

Edited by Ogami, 30 June 2003 - 11:44 PM.




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