58 replies to this topic

[SparkyCola]

Quote

And till folks get this idea into their skulls then the hand wringing and simpering is rather annoying.

As I've already said several times - if you think this is what the Burmese people have been doing all this time, then you are vastly mistaken and being grossly unfair to them, and the hundreds who have died, are in hiding or being badly tortured because they rose up against the military. A landslide victory for democracy has already failed. Hundreds of monks are in prison when they led a street protest. If you think you could do so much better at rebelling against an army than these impoverished people, then you just keep on criticising the "hand wringing and simpering" which they are NOT doing.

Sparky

Edited by SparkyCola, 11 May 2008 - 06:17 AM.

[Godeskian]

It's easy to advocate that others should rise up against a well equipped and willing to use it military when you're sitting safely at home in a country where you don't have to risk anything to make the suggestion.

I wonder G, if you'd be as eager to reccomend rising up against a military junta who is willing to kill you for it if you were the one under the guns.

[G1223]

Godeskian, on May 11 2008, 07:24 AM, said:

It's easy to advocate that others should rise up against a well equipped and willing to use it military when you're sitting safely at home in a country where you don't have to risk anything to make the suggestion.

I wonder G, if you'd be as eager to reccomend rising up against a military junta who is willing to kill you for it if you were the one under the guns.

I do not know. But I do know that it is pointless trying to send aid to a people and have it used to keep these people under the thumb of the guys who are in dire need of being killed.


Nice way to call me a Coward by the way.

[Balderdash]

G1223, on May 11 2008, 06:37 AM, said:

Godeskian, on May 11 2008, 07:24 AM, said:

It's easy to advocate that others should rise up against a well equipped and willing to use it military when you're sitting safely at home in a country where you don't have to risk anything to make the suggestion.

I wonder G, if you'd be as eager to reccomend rising up against a military junta who is willing to kill you for it if you were the one under the guns.

I do not know. But I do know that it is pointless trying to send aid to a people and have it used to keep these people under the thumb of the guys who are in dire need of being killed.


Nice way to call me a Coward by the way.

Gode didn't call you a coward.  Myanmar has been in the news a lot this past year and until the military rulers kicked the press out we (the world) were privy to those "cowardly" hand wringers standing up to the junta and getting their butts killed, tortured and imprisoned for it.  I personally think those people are probably the most courageous I've seen in a while.

[Themis]

You can probably blame American lack of knowledge of the area on American US-centered news media.  Maybe the news networks have covered goings-on in the country.  Maybe the news magazines covered it.  But I'd never heard of the place by its current name (it's Burma in my stamp albums!) until this cyclone roared through.  Most of my "world" news, such as it is, is from the one-hour local station newscast on when I get home from work, the 1/2-hour local station newscast after prime time while I'm getting ready for bed, the local "news"paper and the covers - sometimes the contents of news magazines (Time and Newsweek).  Oh, and this forum on ExIsle!!  None of these except ExIsle pay much attention to happenings in other countries unless the US is involved or it's a huge natural disaster like this one.  The half-hour network news shows that come on before the local are before I get home - they have a somewhat more global perspective.  Somewhat.  Military juntas in a poor country in Asia?  Not on our news radar.

[Balderdash]

^^^

I admit that I don't watch very much local news and usually get my news from the internet or cable.  But Myanmar/Burma was in the news quit a bit recently because the Buddhist monks there led several pro Democracy protests and the Myanmar junta really cracked down on them because the Monks kept protesting, many monks and the people were killed and inprisoned after months of clashes.

[tennyson]

Ever since 1989 when the military junta changed the name to Myanmar and 1990 when they annuled the results of the elections and imprisoned Aun San Suu Kyi the plight of her and the people of Burma has had an at least semiannual mention in all the major news magazines and newspapers as well as the national news and the major 24 hour news channels that reached prominence after the events occurred. (CNN did not become a news force outside of a niche market until after the 1991 Gulf War.)
I knew about this in the 8th grade just by picking up a magazine and that was in the heart of the most unemployed county in West Virginia well before the World Wide Web or Ex Isle existed.

[Godeskian]

G1223, on May 11 2008, 02:37 PM, said:

Godeskian, on May 11 2008, 07:24 AM, said:

It's easy to advocate that others should rise up against a well equipped and willing to use it military when you're sitting safely at home in a country where you don't have to risk anything to make the suggestion.

I wonder G, if you'd be as eager to reccomend rising up against a military junta who is willing to kill you for it if you were the one under the guns.

I do not know. But I do know that it is pointless trying to send aid to a people and have it used to keep these people under the thumb of the guys who are in dire need of being killed.

So what's the alternative? Ignore the 22,000 confirmed dead, the million homeless, the rampant disease and starvation that's about to occur in the region? Because if we aren't going to ignore it, and we're not willing to go in and kick the military junta out then our ONLY remaining option is to try and work through them.

Quote

Nice way to call me a Coward by the way.

I don't think you're a coward. I think that you can't really relate to what being opressed by a military regime is really like unless you've been there and done that. You say things like that they should rise up against the military. With what? How? Civilians in nations like that aren't usually allowed to carry weapons, and they will be killed, imprisoned and tortured, or slapped down in a manner so harsh it hasn't happened in the west in decades.

So when you say things like that, while having never lived under a brutal dictatorial regime I think you're being a tad naive about is actually possible, but I don't think you're a coward.

[SparkyCola]

With the name issue, since no one has mentioned it, I believe that most Western and English speaking countries call "Myanmar" by the old name "Burma" as a form of protesting the military regime. That's why most UK papers and news sources call it Burma and I expect it's the same in the US...

Sparky

[G1223]

Godeskian, on May 11 2008, 02:59 PM, said:

G1223, on May 11 2008, 02:37 PM, said:

Godeskian, on May 11 2008, 07:24 AM, said:

It's easy to advocate that others should rise up against a well equipped and willing to use it military when you're sitting safely at home in a country where you don't have to risk anything to make the suggestion.

I wonder G, if you'd be as eager to reccomend rising up against a military junta who is willing to kill you for it if you were the one under the guns.

I do not know. But I do know that it is pointless trying to send aid to a people and have it used to keep these people under the thumb of the guys who are in dire need of being killed.

So what's the alternative? Ignore the 22,000 confirmed dead, the million homeless, the rampant disease and starvation that's about to occur in the region? Because if we aren't going to ignore it, and we're not willing to go in and kick the military junta out then our ONLY remaining option is to try and work through them.

Quote

Nice way to call me a Coward by the way.

I don't think you're a coward. I think that you can't really relate to what being opressed by a military regime is really like unless you've been there and done that. You say things like that they should rise up against the military. With what? How? Civilians in nations like that aren't usually allowed to carry weapons, and they will be killed, imprisoned and tortured, or slapped down in a manner so harsh it hasn't happened in the west in decades.

So when you say things like that, while having never lived under a brutal dictatorial regime I think you're being a tad naive about is actually possible, but I don't think you're a coward.

Then we need to give the Junta every thing wants. No let them use the aid as atool to ensure they remain in power. After all we cannot let these people suffer so giving the junta the ability to suppress even more their people freedoms even more is a better thing.

Ask the Mexicans if it was not worth the effort to overthorw the French in the 1860"s Would it have been better to be kept underboot after all suffering in oppression is better than dying for a chance at freedom. Ask any people oppressed if it is better to remain in chains than trying to give them freedom.

I am sure they will as a mass support such bondage. Most people do. Really do not look at history go withwhat we in this century feel is the right thing. History is wrong.

[Godeskian]

G1223, on May 11 2008, 08:49 PM, said:

Then we need to give the Junta every thing wants. No let them use the aid as atool to ensure they remain in power. After all we cannot let these people suffer so giving the junta the ability to suppress even more their people freedoms even more is a better thing.

If it's a choice between leaving the junta in power and getting aid to tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people, and letting those tens and hundreds of thousands die to make a point that will be ignored by the junta, I'd rather help.

It's still an evil, but it's the lesser of the two evils.

We have a choice, but that doesn't mean that we have a choice between good alternatives.

[Bobby]

Godeskian, on May 11 2008, 06:24 AM, said:

It's easy to advocate that others should rise up against a well equipped and willing to use it military when you're sitting safely at home in a country where you don't have to risk anything to make the suggestion.

I wonder G, if you'd be as eager to reccomend rising up against a military junta who is willing to kill you for it if you were the one under the guns.

Since we're talking down to one another, aren't you against the Iraq war?  Were you against going in and liberating the people?  From what I've read of your posts you are a pacificist for the most part.  So, since the people of Burma have no weapons and no other way to rebel than walking in the streets, should we liberate them?  Or should we do what G says and sit back and wring our hands and say, "those poor people", cause that's all this really is.   And if we did send the military in, why should soldiers who sign up for defending their home country have to go to another nation to liberate it's people?  I mean, everyone of us here seem to think those people deserve to be free, are we gonna run down and sign up to fight the good fight?  Why not send in the  U.N.?  They can't get past China and Russia for that, can they?  Not if wikipedia is to be believed.     G has a valid point here, people say those people should be free and then try to leave snide comments to people who say they should free themselves because it's not that simple.   Yep, morality is fun to debate.   So what are the options?  Gun smuggling?  Sympathy ain't doing them much good.  But we've hijacked Peridot's(sorry for that) thread and I'm sure she wanted this to be something positive so out of respect for her I'm gonna let it go here.

Edited by Runaway Train, 11 May 2008 - 03:17 PM.

[Godeskian]

You have mail

[G1223]

Runaway Train, on May 11 2008, 04:15 PM, said:

But we've hijacked Peridot's(sorry for that) thread and I'm sure she wanted this to be something positive so out of respect for her I'm gonna let it go here.

We did not hijack the thread. We took it in the direction the news service is telling us about. That their government is playing a little game and that folks are allowing that to take place.

[tennyson]

Quote

I believe that most Western and English speaking countries call "Myanmar" by the old name "Burma" as a form of protesting the military regime. That's why most UK papers and news sources call it Burma and I expect it's the same in the US...

That would be the case. Those who don't support the military junta still call it Burma as a way of protest.
As for the other issues, the Burmese people have revolted against the central authority several times since the junta declared the elections of 1989 void. Tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of people have already died in those revolts.
Some ethnic groups are still actively fighting right now in addition to the peaceful Buddhist monk protests that turned violent. Not to say that all of those groups are particularly shinning examples of humanity but the nominal cause is oppression by the central authority.
The military junta draws upon a particular strand of Buddhism tied to a particular ethnic group to give legtimacy to itself like the government in the Sudan ties itself to a certain brand of Islam and Arabs. Also, like the Sudan, Burma relies upon the PRC for military and financial support. The Burmese military has since the 1989 takeover equipped itself nearly exclusively from the PRC and the PRC is one of its largest trading partners.

[Lord of the Sword]

They tried rising up, got slapped down harsh...Fine. Nobody said it would be easy.

As for them not having weapons...There's a solution for that. If the people ambushed some soliders, took those weapons, then used those weapons to fight others...Before too long you'd have weapons. Granted, not the best solution, and a lot of people will die from that course of action. But if the choice is that, or living like they are now....guess it just depends on what is more important to a person? Living as someone else's b*tch! Or possibly dying on your feet, fighting for something you believe in.

Now granted, it is easy for me to type this sitting at my PC, not facing what these people are facing. But if I were in their shoes, I would like to think I'd have the courage not to be someone else's b*tch!

[SparkyCola]

Quote

They tried rising up, got slapped down harsh...Fine. Nobody said it would be easy.

REPEATEDLY.

LotS - most of these people are impoverished, scared people. They are not The A-Team. So many courageous people have already tried and failed to do something, but it's the ARMY they are up against. You say that, and I know you're a courageous and fiesty type of person ...but if you had children? A family that you spent every day trying to keep from starvation? If your main goal was staying alive  - well, righteous indignation probably loses a lot under those conditions. They haven't got enough money to take a moral or combative high ground. That's all I'm saying.

Sparky

PS- I don't know why we're talking about them as if they are not fighting against it. Only last year they tried ONCE AGAIN to rise up against the Junta. They will try again. These people are not short of courage, and they ARE fighting their military rule. They have been for years and they will continue to do so.

Edited by SparkyCola, 12 May 2008 - 11:18 AM.

[G1223]

SparkyCola, on May 12 2008, 12:17 PM, said:

Quote

They tried rising up, got slapped down harsh...Fine. Nobody said it would be easy.

REPEATEDLY.

LotS - most of these people are impoverished, scared people. They are not The A-Team. So many courageous people have already tried and failed to do something, but it's the ARMY they are up against.

It was not easy when the Mexicans drove out the French. They had an amry. And the Mexicans had to build one to fight them. And it was not easy. You think that the French Resistance had it easy? They fought and died to prepare for the day the Germans would be driven out. They too fought an Army.

You think that someday the Junta is going to get a clue and realize what they have done? Really? People will die but they are dying now. and hva e a government which does not care for anything but keeping themselves in power. Even if that means their people have to die.

You guys want to say I have no clue to what these people are dealing with? You seem to be wringing your hands saying" those poor people and wouldn't someone do something for them." and I am telling you what needs to be done and you still refuse to listen. Because it means that some people are going to die.

Well guess what without trying to drive these guys out they are still dying. So go either dry your hands and accept that something needs to be done or deal with me thinking your opinions are just so much bullcrap. That you will do nothing at all to help but what is bloodless and painless and will not people those people at risk.

Because they are already at risk and nothing is being done to simply kill the problem makers.

[Alica]

Back to the subject of help - I can't believe that anyone could actually think that the people of Burma don't want the help. My friend is out there to teach schoolkids - I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that they appreciate it. I knew someone else who was very active in helping a small village get clean water - so much so, that when he died, they built a monument of a water fountain in remembrance for him. The normal everyday people do appreciate the help they get. Are you really callous enough to condemn innocent people to death through starvation and disease, just because their rulers don't care about them? If anything, this should make us care more about them. Because someone needs to.

[SparkyCola]

Quote

Well guess what without trying to drive these guys out they are still dying.

That's the point you are missing though. They ARE trying, so please stop belittling their courage by saying that they are not trying. So with all your strawmen, baiting, addressing comments I never made and hyper-charged rhetoric, the point remains the same. They ARE trying. You're the one who is wringing your hands saying "Ohhh but why can't they just fight them off? It's only an army, not like it hasn't been done before! They should fight the good fight first, and worry about feeding their children second, after they are tortured to death for sticking it to the Junta. But I'm all right Jack."

Sparky