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Cyclone kills thousands in Myanmar

Natural Disasters Cyclone Myanmar 2008

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#41 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 01:48 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on May 12 2008, 12:17 PM, said:

Quote

They tried rising up, got slapped down harsh...Fine. Nobody said it would be easy.

REPEATEDLY.

LotS - most of these people are impoverished, scared people. They are not The A-Team. So many courageous people have already tried and failed to do something, but it's the ARMY they are up against. You say that, and I know you're a courageous and fiesty type of person ...but if you had children? A family that you spent every day trying to keep from starvation? If your main goal was staying alive  - well, righteous indignation probably loses a lot under those conditions. They haven't got enough money to take a moral or combative high ground. That's all I'm saying.

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PS- I don't know why we're talking about them as if they are not fighting against it. Only last year they tried ONCE AGAIN to rise up against the Junta. They will try again. These people are not short of courage, and they ARE fighting their military rule. They have been for years and they will continue to do so.

You raise a valid point there. If I had children, and lived in that situation...That is a tough one, I'll grant that. Yes, you're primary goal is staying alive to protect your family. But I would have to wonder how safe my family was in that kind of environment. Where without warning the military, any time it chose, could kill my family...They really aren't safe.

Then again, if you fight and even if you survive, your family could be targeted...But they could also be targeted regardless.

I guess it's just too much to hope for that the US slipped in some guns in those boxes...probably not though, cause if found out it would ruin any furhter aide the US might be able to provide in the future to them, and other countries.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#42 offworlder

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 09:56 AM

oh aint there always this type thing goin on,
http://news.yahoo.co...e_mi_ea/myanmar

junta generals swapping quality foreign aid goods stuck in secret warehouse for poor quality goods they had made, stamped with their names, so beneficent?
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#43 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 10:31 AM

View Postoffworlder, on May 13 2008, 10:56 AM, said:

oh aint there always this type thing goin on,
http://news.yahoo.co...e_mi_ea/myanmar

junta generals swapping quality foreign aid goods stuck in secret warehouse for poor quality goods they had made, stamped with their names, so beneficent?

You know, this just gets me so pissed it isn't even funny. And these are the people that the US, and other countries, are kissing a$$ to?

Any other comments I have most definately would NOT be appropriate.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#44 SparkyCola

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 10:43 AM

How are we kissing a$$ to them? :eh: That's a genuine question btw, I just don't know.

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#45 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 11:22 AM

View PostSparkyCola, on May 13 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

How are we kissing a$$ to them? :eh: That's a genuine question btw, I just don't know.

Sparky

OK, first I was referring to the US and other countries kissing the military junta's a$$...not the starving people. And I'm sorry but it just seems like the US and other countries are kissing their a$$, by essentially begging to be allowed to help. Yes, I get that they want to help the people. But begging a military regime like this to be able to help....Sending the aide to the military warehouses so this kind of crap can happen....Oh hell no!

That's how I view the US and others as kissing a$$.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#46 G1223

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 11:35 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on May 13 2008, 11:31 AM, said:

View Postoffworlder, on May 13 2008, 10:56 AM, said:

oh aint there always this type thing goin on,
http://news.yahoo.co...e_mi_ea/myanmar

junta generals swapping quality foreign aid goods stuck in secret warehouse for poor quality goods they had made, stamped with their names, so beneficent?

You know, this just gets me so pissed it isn't even funny. And these are the people that the US, and other countries, are kissing a$$ to?

Any other comments I have most definately would NOT be appropriate.


Hense the reaon I see no reason to keep sending aid.
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#47 SparkyCola

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 12:05 PM

Oh, I see. I thought you were talking in more general terms about foreign policy with Burma, rather than this specific incident. Thanks for explaining :)

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#48 Shalamar

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 04:19 PM

Who does it hurt to 'beg' to be allowed to provice aid?

Is pride and ego so fragile that humility - or percieved humilitation ( of having to beg) so bad that you'd let people die beacuse of it?

I'm very serious about asking that. So what if we beg? Who is hurt by it?

A great lady once said that "You're only emebarrassed if you let yourself be" (IIRC that was the aqwesome Eleanor Roosevelt)

and I feel that applies to not only to that but insulted / humiliated  / belittled / and a whole host of other percieved slights.

So if our leaders are big enough men to humble themselve to help others - then more power to them.

If those shabby little men holding Burma hostage want to thing they've gotten the 'better' of us - wel'l they are just shabby little men and who cares what they think.
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#49 G1223

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 04:24 PM

When that aid is being used to suppress the voices of the people. When this government is using the aid to dig in deeper. When you give aid which supports an evil it does not leave you without the blood on your hands.
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#50 Godeskian

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 04:25 PM

Agreed Shal, embarrasment is a choice, and pride means very little to me when people's lives are on the line.

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#51 Themis

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 05:22 PM

This is a very old problem.  Natural disaster hits impovrished country run by dictators.  Non-impovrished countries, assorted religious bodies, international agencies all want to help.  Some or all of the aid falls into the dictators' hands and doesn't get to those who need it.  

Still, it's worth trying to get the aid to the people who need it.  Some of it will get there.  It used to be easier before every tin horn dictator could shoot surface-to-air missiles - at least air drops were possible.  Maybe they still are.  Turning your back on suffering might be ok with some people...ahem...but sure doesn't sit well with my conscience.
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#52 SparkyCola

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 05:32 PM

Shal :thumbs-up: :cool: Very well said. It takes far more courage to do something outside of your comfort zone than it does to give way to your own ego and pride.

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#53 Pallas

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 08:03 PM

On that note, however, I must say that I'm really impressed with the speed and generosity of all the groups and governments offering their aid. It's truly a great step forward in the evolution of human relations when a great humanitarian disaster is no longer considered a purvey of just a national government but a concern for humanity. Globalization can be a wonderful thing and I think that the speed of the response was fantastic.

Also, I want to point out that the US and other countries are pandering to the junta, trying to soothe their ego because what little help that gets through is better than no help at all. They are also trying to stave off what will be a horrific humanitarian crisis that is in the making which will see hundreds of thousands of people die.

And I would just like to point out that you need people to hold a revolution, preferably people who are somewhat healthy, sound of mind and capable of carrying forward this grand revolution. A lot of people here are assuming that political freedom is tangible objective that, should the people of Myanmar decide they need, they can achieve. It is not and they will not. Political freedom is a responsibility and a duty, one that must be won and then protected. The ability to pursue a political agenda is also a privilege reserved for the wealthy and the educated.

The American revolution and all other successful revolutions to gain the political freedom objective belonged to another time when international politics was bound up by insular state interests. Virtually all the countries in this modern age, from the 20th century onwards who has struggled for political freedoms like that of the United States and Western Europe are still in various stages of defining that nationality and sovereignty. Many have ended in disaster and continues to spiral into oblivion. Others have achieved minimal success, not by adopting the American/Western values but by incorporating the best practices of our system with the cultural practices of theirs.

Denying innocent victims of a natural phenomenon is beyond callous. It's childishly and naively inhumane and quite frankly, barbarous. Because that is precisely what the Myanmar military junta is doing by denying their people aid. They are behaving like barbarians and people who advocate that we don't give aid are sitting on the same side of the table as the junta and not the international community who, in this case, are doing the right thing.

Theoretical debates on the ethical validity of humanitarian aid are academic. The practical reality is that countries respond when disaster strikes, especially with regards with failed states like Myanmar, because it's the right thing to do.
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#54 G1223

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 08:50 PM

Yes give food to these peopel so that the government can decide who get sit and who does not. I suspect anyone who the government does not think of as loyal gets to starve so we must keep giving aid even when we find this out because besides being soft in the head we think that with good thought these men will change their ways.
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When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#55 Shalamar

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 09:09 PM

Okay G so we let all die just to try and get the junta tossed out? Oh thats bloody helpful

G, we know that our aid is not going to change the junta, and yes we have to settle for that - but at least some of the aide will get where its going - and to condem the flood vicitms to death JUST because of the junta is not only evil but stupid as well

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#56 G1223

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 09:24 PM

Yet you are going to keep these guys in pwoer and crush those in opposition. Who is giving out the aid. The government. Who will not get the aid those who have not supported the junta and then what. What will YOU do when they starve those people into submission. I have made my suggestion. Based on not supporting these men and doing all to bring them down.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#57 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 10:50 PM

View PostShalamar, on May 13 2008, 10:09 PM, said:

G, we know that our aid is not going to change the junta, and yes we have to settle for that - but at least some of the aide will get where its going - and to condem the flood vicitms to death JUST because of the junta is not only evil but stupid as well


But the thing of it is that the aide ISN'T going to the people who need it...at least not according to that linked article. It IS going to the junta, who them switch it out and give the people who need it rotten food, and sub standard rations, ect. So the aide, while intended for the people, is going to the military.

So why should we, and other nations, give aide to the junta?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#58 G1223

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 02:57 AM

It is a placebo. Because it will make us feel good. It will make us feel less guilty about things.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#59 enTranced

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 10:23 AM

Heads up!

Both the Today show and my local NBC station was saying that a *second* Cyclone is expected to hit Myanmar in a few days.

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