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Jesse Helms Dead At 86

Obituaries Jesse Helms Senator 2008

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#21 Bad Wolf

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 11:20 AM

Scott it's not a matter of defending Jesse Helms (lord knows I don't think his positions were defensible), it's more a matter of beating a man after he's dead (or in the case of Ted Kennedy, down).  And the quote about not even having sympathy for his family?   :blink:
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#22 Orpheus

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 11:22 AM

View PostNittany Lioness, on Jul 8 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

Wonder where the people are who'd scolded the mention of Ted Kennedy's horrors.
I'm not a Helms fan, but since I opened this thread, I've been wondering the same thing.

I thought showing no regard for his family was particularly reprehensible. He is, as they say, far above our poor power to add or detract, but lashing out at everyone near him, well... how would you like to be lambasted for sins of your father? That's one of the fundamental evils of history, from religious and ethnic persecutions to blaming sexually abused children.

Our words must, of necessity, say a great deal more about ourselves than our subject. WE said them.

#23 SparkyCola

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 11:36 AM

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Jesse Helms and his wife adopted a 9 year old orphan with cerebral palsy after reading a story about him in the newspaper.

No one is all bad. In death we tend to have respect for the family and reflect on the good things. No amount of bad can take away from the simple fact that the above ^ is a good thing.

I'd never heard of the guy until this thread, to be perfectly honest, but it seems to me that if you had a problem with the guy, you should say so when he was alive, because now is not the time. He's not around to defend himself, and his grieving family are in no state to either. That's my policy in general, but I've seen almost everyone be hypocritical, then again since I don't believe in the death penalty, I *would* think that, because I think it's wrong to wish someone dead, or speak ill of the dead, even if they are a criminal.

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#24 Bad Wolf

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 11:37 AM

View PostOrpheus, on Jul 8 2008, 09:22 AM, said:

Our words must, of necessity, say a great deal more about ourselves than our subject. WE said them.

Indeed.
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#25 BklnScott

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 12:13 PM

There is a long, storied tradition of celebrating the deaths of tyrants.  

Anyone whose friends or family or lovers are dead because Jesse Helms thought fags deserved to rot in hell has just cause to celebrate his death.

Anyone who is simply offended that Jesse Helms denied HIV/AIDS funding because he thought fags deserved to rot in hell has just cause to celebrate his death.

It's easy for hetero people--and the younger gay generation, for that matter--to forget 25 years later just how many American political leaders reacted to the outbreak of this plague with variations on, "good riddance" or "god's revenge" -- and just how many people are dead because of that reaction.

But for those of us who survived, or were coming of age, during the plague years, forgetting is not an option.  And,certainly, there is no forgiving.

That said, I agree that Signorile goes too far when he specifically lambastes the family.  I understand why he did it -- but I don't agree with it.

Edited by ScottEVill, 08 July 2008 - 12:18 PM.

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#26 Palisades

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 12:59 PM

The Jesse Helms You Should Remember
By Marc Thiessen -- Foreign Relations Committee spokesman for Sen. Jesse Helms from 1995 to 2001 and chief White House speechwriter

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With the passing of Sen. Jesse Helms, the media have demonstrated one final time that they never fully understood the power or impact of this great man. Consider, for example, The Post's obituary of Helms; here are some things you would not learn about his life and legacy by reading it: ...

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#27 FrostAbode

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 01:19 PM

^Interesting stuff, but you don't have to be a "knee-jerk liberal" to realize the man was a 1st class bigot to his very core.

Personally, I don't care if he walked on water, fought fires with his superbreath, and fed the multitudes with three loaves of bread and a jar of peanut butter.  He was trash and good riddance to him.
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#28 BklnScott

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 02:06 PM

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Senator Jesse Helms: Cut AIDS Funding

The Associated Press - 5 Jul 95

NEW YORK (AP) -- Sen. Jesse Helms says the government should spend less money on people with AIDS because they got sick as a result of "deliberate, disgusting, revolting conduct," The New York Times reported Wednesday.
Helms, who has often spoken of his disgust for homosexuals, spoke to the Times as the Senate considers whether to renew a federal program for the care and treatment of AIDS patients.

"We've got to have some common sense about a disease transmitted by people deliberately engaging in unnatural acts," Helms told the Times.

The Republican from North Carolina argued that AIDS gets a disproportionately large amount of funding for medical research despite being only the ninth-leading cause of death in the United States.

Actually, Public Health Services statistics show that heart disease receives the most federal funding, at $36.3 billion annually, followed by cancer, $16.9 billion, and AIDS at $6 billion, the Times said.

Furthermore, AIDS is the leading cause of death among both men and women from 24 to 44, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Times said.

The $880 million Ryan White Care Act of 1990, named for an Indiana teen-ager who died after contracting AIDS through a blood transfusion, expires at the end of September.

A reauthorization bill has yet to reach the Senate floor, and in the House, the measure is stalled in committee. Helms denies he has tried to stop the bill.
  

But of course -- It's clear he was a huge proponent!

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#29 Rhea

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 05:13 PM

On the subject of Ted Kennedy, I disagree. Ted Kennedy made one huge mistake, then went on to a lifetime of service to his state and the country. He's respected by his peers on both sides of the aisle, and his constituents love him, with good reason. Does it negate what happened at Chappaquidick? Nope. But it mitigates it, in my opinion.

Jesse Helms was an unremitting racist bastard. If you weren't a white Anglo-Saxon protestant, forget it. He was the worst of what the South is about. I've known a number of people like him - contemptible people who hate everything they don't understand and everyone who isn't like them. That's what his career was about - hatred of the Other, whoever the Other happened to be at the moment.

I'm sorry that some of you find it distressing that we can't mourn this man whose life was given over to bad works, but that's the breaks. While his family has my sympathy, I'm not a bit sorry he's dead. One less hateful bigot in the world.

Edited by Rhea, 08 July 2008 - 05:15 PM.

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#30 Bad Wolf

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 12:25 AM

^  I for one don't think anyone needs to mourn him.  But there's a difference between refusing to mourn him and expressing glee and taking his death as an opportunity to point out his (many) faults.

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#31 Nikcara

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 12:49 AM

I'm agreeing with Bad Wolf here.  I'm certainly in the Not A Fan of Jesse Helms camp, and I don't mourn him...but I find it tacky to be celebrating his death.  Understandable, given how much pain he has caused, but still inappropriate in a thread discussing his death.

If there was a thread discussing his life, I would have less issue with his moral character being brought up and debated.  But this is an announcement of death.
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#32 SparkyCola

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 03:50 AM

^ Agreed. I don't see anyone here celebrating as such, and I'm glad of that because I think it's cowardly to attack someone after they die, when they cannot defend themselves and their family is in no position to. Attack his views all you like while he's alive, but it's not the time or place when he's just died.

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#33 BklnScott

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 06:33 AM

His surrogates have been coming out of the woorwork to defend this racist, homophobic bigot with the blood of thousands and thousands on his hands.  AFF/SW posted the link to his chief of staff's op-ed piece about this "great" man and his "great works," the list of which is... dubious to say the least... Oooh, he stood up to Castro.  Wow, that took political courage.  He attacked the UN.  He attacked dying people.

Edited by ScottEVill, 09 July 2008 - 06:34 AM.

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#34 G1223

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:18 AM

View PostCardie, on Jul 6 2008, 04:59 PM, said:

I'm sure that was a white boy with cerebral palsy, who was then indoctrinated with all sorts of hatred.  Sometimes being kind to children and dogs is not enough.

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Odd you talk in a later post about how cowardly it is to attack the dead. Here is this where you attack a dead man and a kid with CP. Feeling brave now do we?
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#35 Kosh

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:27 AM

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Ted Kennedy made one huge mistake, then went on to a lifetime of service to his state and the country.

I suspect Mary Jo's family would disagree.
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#36 Godeskian

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:37 AM

View PostKosh, on Jul 9 2008, 02:27 PM, said:

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Ted Kennedy made one huge mistake, then went on to a lifetime of service to his state and the country.

I suspect Mary Jo's family would disagree.

No doubt they would disagree, wouldn't really expect it to be otherwise given that she was their family.

I'm often surprised how much people focus on a single negative event in someone's life, seeming to suggest that one 'bad' act can negate a lifetime's worth of 'good' acts. I'm not suggesting Ted Kennedy only did good acts mind you, because I know very little about him, but people do seem to have a certain fixation on that one event.

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#37 Kosh

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:43 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Jul 9 2008, 09:37 AM, said:

View PostKosh, on Jul 9 2008, 02:27 PM, said:

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Ted Kennedy made one huge mistake, then went on to a lifetime of service to his state and the country.

I suspect Mary Jo's family would disagree.

No doubt they would disagree, wouldn't really expect it to be otherwise given that she was their family.

I'm often surprised how much people focus on a single negative event in someone's life, seeming to suggest that one 'bad' act can negate a lifetime's worth of 'good' acts. I'm not suggesting Ted Kennedy only did good acts mind you, because I know very little about him, but people do seem to have a certain fixation on that one event.


Someone died, and he's lied about ever since.
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#38 Godeskian

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:45 AM

View PostKosh, on Jul 9 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

Someone died, and he's lied about ever since.

I thought the fact that he 'lied' was under some dispute?

Even so, my question was more along the lines of, must that forever eclipse anything and everything else he did, no matter what it was.

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#39 Kosh

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:54 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Jul 9 2008, 09:45 AM, said:

View PostKosh, on Jul 9 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

Someone died, and he's lied about ever since.

I thought the fact that he 'lied' was under some dispute?

Even so, my question was more along the lines of, must that forever eclipse anything and everything else he did, no matter what it was.


Pretty much, yes.

He never explained why he left her there. He talked and talked and talked, but never said anything, like a true politition.

Just as Helms possible good deeds don't make up for a life time of racism.

George Wallace, who stood in the doorway of a school building in an attempt to keep a black girl from entering, while he was the states governor, has spent the last few years going from place to place apologizing for all the things he has done. That would be a good way to start for Ted or Jesse Helms, but it's to late for Helms.
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#40 BklnScott

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 10:41 AM

View PostG1223, on Jul 9 2008, 09:18 AM, said:

View PostCardie, on Jul 6 2008, 04:59 PM, said:

I'm sure that was a white boy with cerebral palsy, who was then indoctrinated with all sorts of hatred.  Sometimes being kind to children and dogs is not enough.

Cardie


Odd you talk in a later post about how cowardly it is to attack the dead. Here is this where you attack a dead man and a kid with CP. Feeling brave now do we?

That wasn't Cardie.  Try again.

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