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Jesse Helms Dead At 86

Obituaries Jesse Helms Senator 2008

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#41 Cardie

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 10:43 AM

View PostG1223, on Jul 9 2008, 09:18 AM, said:

View PostCardie, on Jul 6 2008, 04:59 PM, said:

I'm sure that was a white boy with cerebral palsy, who was then indoctrinated with all sorts of hatred.  Sometimes being kind to children and dogs is not enough.

Cardie


Odd you talk in a later post about how cowardly it is to attack the dead. Here is this where you attack a dead man and a kid with CP. Feeling brave now do we?

No, I don't talk anywhere in this thread about it being cowardly to attack the dead.  My only posts are #4 and the one you quote above. Although I know it's the prevailing wisdom that one doesn't speak ill of the dead, I've always thought that concept to be hypocritical.  While I would never accost people who loved someone to gloat about a death, I never feel obligated to mute my opposition to the deads done in life just because the person has passed on, particularly if they were unrepentant till the last.

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#42 G1223

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 10:59 AM

View PostScottEVill, on Jul 9 2008, 11:41 AM, said:

View PostG1223, on Jul 9 2008, 09:18 AM, said:

View PostCardie, on Jul 6 2008, 04:59 PM, said:

I'm sure that was a white boy with cerebral palsy, who was then indoctrinated with all sorts of hatred.  Sometimes being kind to children and dogs is not enough.

Cardie


Odd you talk in a later post about how cowardly it is to attack the dead. Here is this where you attack a dead man and a kid with CP. Feeling brave now do we?

That wasn't Cardie.  Try again.

Your right it was not cowardly it was racists and mean spoirited towards someone who took in a happicapped child. Kind of the thing one can expect from Liberals. Do as I say not as I do. Still your right she did not try to go back on her comments.

And cowardly is the wrong word. Craven is better.  

The Helms took in a child who had disabilities which are not going to give the child a long life. They gave the child more than any soft hearted liberal college teacher gave the kid.
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#43 SparkyCola

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 11:15 AM

^ Just because you disagree with someone strongly is not an excuse to bait them or to address them with incivility. It does nothing for your argument. Especially when you get your facts wrong. In fact, Cardie has been completely consistent.

However, I agree with you that, as I mentioned before, taking in a child with CP is a good thing, and that's all there is to it. You can't try and take that away just because he also did bad things. No one is 100% perfect or 100% evil. That's the point. In the same way, Ted Kennedy was neither 100% perfect or evil. He did good things and bad things in his life. His death is a time to focus on the good things, because that's what we would wish others to do for us.

Unless there is anyone here who thinks they have led a 100% blameless and perfect life, and I don't think there is. As I said before, if you want to attack someone, do it while they are living. Don't wait until they are dead. If you can't think of anything nice to say, then say nothing, but it's inappropriate and disrespectful (not to the dead, to the family) to use their death as a platform for a political agenda. No matter how strongly you feel about that agenda.

It's not hypocritical, no one is saying you have to magically love the guy. It's not even remotely about that. It's about simple respect for the person's family, as you would wish others to do for you. He can't defend himself anymore, so why didn't you speak up when he was alive and could have? Perhaps you did - well, everyone already knows how you feel, then, and there's no point being ignoble and rubbing it in for no point, just because you can. It's very easy to speak ill of a dead man, and that's why you will gain no respect by doing so.

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#44 Nikcara

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 11:16 AM

Oh, leave her alone G.  The fact that there are people who would take in a disabled white child but let a healthy but poor black child rot and die is hardly up for debate.  Whether or not Jesse Helms was that kind of person may be up for debate, but pointing out that there are people who are more willing to accept someone who is disabled than someone who is a different race is hardly "liberal" or "conservative".  It just IS.

Also, how do you know what liberals do?  I KNOW people who describe themselves as liberal who have adopted special needs kids, or became foster parents for abused children.  I also know conservatives who have.  The claim

Quote

They gave the child more than any soft hearted liberal college teacher gave the kid.
is only true because it was that child alone.  Plenty of people, from all types of political beliefs, try to improve the lives of other people.  

And frankly, it's not that I so much mind criticizing the dead as I mind it when the topic is an announcement of that person's death.  If someone started a thread about what kind of person he was, I wouldn't really care.  If I really believed that we should never criticize the dead then I would also believe we shouldn't teach history.  Because frankly, lots of history is showing the (sometime glaring) mistakes that people in the past have made.

edited for a couple wrong words, and cause Sparky responded while I was typing

Edited by Nikcara, 09 July 2008 - 11:19 AM.

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#45 G1223

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 11:24 AM

View PostSparkyCola, on Jul 9 2008, 12:15 PM, said:

^ Just because you disagree with someone strongly is not an excuse to bait them or to address them with incivility. It does nothing for your argument. Especially when you get your facts wrong. In fact, Cardie has been completely consistent.

However, I agree with you that, as I mentioned before, taking in a child with CP is a good thing, and that's all there is to it. You can't try and take that away just because he also did bad things. No one is 100% perfect or 100% evil. That's the point. In the same way, Ted Kennedy was neither 100% perfect or evil. He did good things and bad things in his life. His death is a time to focus on the good things, because that's what we would wish others to do for us.

Unless there is anyone here who thinks they have led a 100% blameless and perfect life, and I don't think there is. As I said before, if you want to attack someone, do it while they are living. Don't wait until they are dead. If you can't think of anything nice to say, then say nothing, but it's inappropriate and disrespectful (not to the dead, to the family) to use their death as a platform for a political agenda. No matter how strongly you feel about that agenda.

It's not hypocritical, no one is saying you have to magically love the guy. It's not even remotely about that. It's about simple respect for the person's family, as you would wish others to do for you. He can't defend himself anymore, so why didn't you speak up when he was alive and could have? Perhaps you did - well, everyone already knows how you feel, then, and there's no point being ignoble and rubbing it in for no point, just because you can. It's very easy to speak ill of a dead man, and that's why you will gain no respect by doing so.

Sparky


No but slamming someone for adopting a kid with disabilities is wrong and craven. You might not like the person but saying they raised the kid to be a racists without anything to back it up is hardly behavior that earns civil responces.

I did not like Helm s I did not know he raised a child with CP.

I disagreed with him on someo f the moral issues others have stated. But to look for ANYTHING at all to attack the man with is hardly civil behvior. Why should it merit treating such a craven person with civiliity?
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#46 G1223

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 11:26 AM

View PostNikcara, on Jul 9 2008, 12:16 PM, said:

Oh, leave her alone G.  The fact that there are people who would take in a disabled white child but let a healthy but poor black child rot and die is hardly up for debate.  Whether or not Jesse Helms was that kind of person may be up for debate, but pointing out that there are people who are more willing to accept someone who is disabled than someone who is a different race is hardly "liberal" or "conservative".  It just IS.

Also, how do you know what liberals do?  I KNOW people who describe themselves as liberal who have adopted special needs kids, or became foster parents for abused children.  I also know conservatives who have.  The claim

Quote

They gave the child more than any soft hearted liberal college teacher gave the kid.
is only true because it was that child alone.  Plenty of people, from all types of political beliefs, try to improve the lives of other people.  

And frankly, it's not that I so much mind criticizing the dead as I mind it when the topic is an announcement of that person's death.  If someone started a thread about what kind of person he was, I wouldn't really care.  If I really believed that we should never criticize the dead then I would also believe we shouldn't teach history.  Because frankly, lots of history is showing the (sometime glaring) mistakes that people in the past have made.

edited for a couple wrong words, and cause Sparky responded while I was typing

If Helms had taken in a black child Cardie like would have said. He probably taugh the child to stand out front ina Jockey outfit and hold a small lantern.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
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paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#47 SparkyCola

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 11:49 AM

Quote

No but slamming someone for adopting a kid with disabilities is wrong and craven. You might not like the person but saying they raised the kid to be a racists without anything to back it up is hardly behavior that earns civil responces.

I did not like Helm s I did not know he raised a child with CP.

I disagreed with him on someo f the moral issues others have stated. But to look for ANYTHING at all to attack the man with is hardly civil behvior. Why should it merit treating such a craven person with civiliity?

Because no matter how much you disagree with someone, being civil to them is the resounding guideline this board requires to allow for a good atmosphere. It is like that because incivility only breeds incivility, and that doesn't get anyone anywhere. If you think someone is being rude, then demonstrate by being extra-civil, to back up your point. Don't negate your point by rudely asking them to stop being rude. That would be hypocritical, and is unlikely to achieve the desired effect.

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#48 Rhea

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 12:13 PM

View PostKosh, on Jul 9 2008, 06:54 AM, said:

George Wallace, who stood in the doorway of a school building in an attempt to keep a black girl from entering, while he was the states governor, has spent the last few years going from place to place apologizing for all the things he has done.

That would be kind of hard to do, since he died in 1998. ;)

And that's the guy who, when asked by a reporter what contemporary figure he most admired, answered "myself."
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#49 Kosh

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 01:31 PM

The documentary I saw must have been fairly old.

(August 25, 1919 – September 13, 1998) was what Wiki had. He was a no good SOB. I don't know when he made the comment, but it sounds like the guy I remember so well from the elections. The thing I saw on TV was him going to different places, mostly Black Churches I think, to apologize to people. Wheather he meant it or not is another matter.
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#50 Cardie

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 01:54 PM

I admit on reflection that going after Helms on this issue was probably uncalled for, given all the other actions he committed that are unequivocally deserving of censure. It's just that I equally dislike condemning someone for one blameworthy action or for condoning all bad behavior from someone who has committed one praiseworthy action.  

However, you know nothing about my personal life, G, nor the personal lives of all "soft-hearted liberal college professors," so you have no basis for a blanket statement that none of us would have done anything for this child or others like him.

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#51 G1223

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 02:27 PM

View PostCardie, on Jul 9 2008, 02:54 PM, said:

However, you know nothing about my personal life, G, nor the personal lives of all "soft-hearted liberal college professors," so you have no basis for a blanket statement that none of us would have done anything for this child or others like him.

Cardie

Yet you felt you had a basis to say he raised the child to be a racist. Is there a degree you got for that?

Edited by G1223, 09 July 2008 - 02:27 PM.

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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#52 Kosh

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 02:46 PM

View PostG1223, on Jul 9 2008, 03:27 PM, said:

View PostCardie, on Jul 9 2008, 02:54 PM, said:

However, you know nothing about my personal life, G, nor the personal lives of all "soft-hearted liberal college professors," so you have no basis for a blanket statement that none of us would have done anything for this child or others like him.

Cardie

Yet you felt you had a basis to say he raised the child to be a racist. Is there a degree you got for that?


Why didn't you quote the entire post, where she addressed your question, instead of half?
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#53 Cardie

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 03:13 PM

View PostG1223, on Jul 9 2008, 03:27 PM, said:

Yet you felt you had a basis to say he raised the child to be a racist. Is there a degree you got for that?

A degree for being able to draw tentative conclusions based on careful consideration of the evidence.  Does it seem logical that anyone who was so openly and consistently racist his entire life, who wouldn't even for political expediency pretend to regret his past racist statements and actions, would raise his child to consider all people his equals?  That would be about as logical as my assuming that you would bring up a child to be a liberal and love Iranians or that you would expect me to raise a child to own guns and support capital punishment.

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#54 Balthamos

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 06:33 PM

Prehaps the only reason the dead are attacked on here is because their names aren't really brought up until they die? These people I haven't even heard of come up, people haven't already expressed their views on them so they do so in the only thread about that person.

#55 G1223

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 06:49 PM

View PostCardie, on Jul 9 2008, 04:13 PM, said:

View PostG1223, on Jul 9 2008, 03:27 PM, said:

Yet you felt you had a basis to say he raised the child to be a racist. Is there a degree you got for that?

A degree for being able to draw tentative conclusions based on careful consideration of the evidence.  Does it seem logical that anyone who was so openly and consistently racist his entire life, who wouldn't even for political expediency pretend to regret his past racist statements and actions, would raise his child to consider all people his equals?  That would be about as logical as my assuming that you would bring up a child to be a liberal and love Iranians or that you would expect me to raise a child to own guns and support capital punishment.

Cardie


Can you prove the kid is a racists or not.  I think you said what you did because you hated Helms  he could have refuted everything and still he would be the demon you made him out to be.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#56 Cardie

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 11:37 PM

Of course I can't prove it, but can you prove that Helms raised him with values different than those he stated publicly?  The preponderance of the evidence is with me, not you.  Few parents raise their children to have values different from their own.  Now, whether the son carried those values over into his adult life, I have no idea.

The "kid" Charles Helms, by the way, is now 55 years old, lives in Winston-Salem NC and works for a tobacco company.  I couldn't find any interviews with him.

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#57 G1223

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 04:49 AM

What evidence? He raised the kid but where is the proof the boy was raised to be a racists. Did Helms take him to a KKK rally and have the boy holding a banner there?  

My parents were Democrats and I am a Republican. I have black freinds but my mother was at times a open racist. About the only thing we shared was a dislike for organized religion.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#58 szhismine

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 03:18 PM

kids are raised to have about the same beliefs as their parents, that's not a stretch. it's only later in life (adolescene) when some/most, not all, of those kids change their beliefs and/or challenge what their parents believe in. it stands to reason that the kid was raised with certain beliefs, the question is whether or not he still has them.
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Harry: "My parents are dead, my life sucks, I can't hold down a girlfriend, and I'm surrounded by f*ck*ng goblins and sh*t all the time. I mean what the f*ck?"
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