Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Gang rape by soldiers in Kenya

Rape Gang Rape Kenya

  • Please log in to reply
76 replies to this topic

#41 Ilphi

Ilphi
  • Islander
  • 4,071 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 09:17 AM

^

Well, of course they would - it's a very serious allegation...

I don't think anyone is suggesting it wouldn't be looked into...  :blink:
Yea, ere my hot youth pass, I speak to my people and say:
Ye shall be foolish as I; ye shall scatter, not save;
Ye shall venture your all, lest ye lose what is more than all;
Ye shall call for a miracle, taking Christ at His word.
And for this I will answer, O people, answer here and hereafter,
The Fool - Padraic Pearse

#42 GiGi

GiGi

    Lipstick wearing PIG kisser!

  • Islander
  • 8,774 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 09:35 AM

QueenTiye, on Jul 3 2003, 01:30 PM, said:

3. I note with concern the women who claim to have been pregnant in their preteen years (one woman claims to have been 7 at the time she was raped, and to have been heavily pregnant at the time!)
(a claim which goes to my concern about child prostitution...)
I don't think the (7) was her age, but AI numbering the reports.  If you look below it says she is 40 now, so she would have been in her twenties or so in the mid-1980s.  I thought the same as you did at first, and had to look at it a couple of times.

Quote

Tition Pere,(7) who is now about 40, was reportedly attacked in the mid-1980s by four soldiers, while she was tending her goats.  She claims that when she saw the UK soldiers she started to run, as it was allegedly notorious that UK soldiers raped women.  The soldiers chased her for about a kilometre.  When the first two reached her, they appeared to argue about who should rape her first.  She says that the two who arrived later tried to stop their companions.  She was wearing a wraparound garment that in the course of the attack became undone and the soldiers could see that she was heavily pregnant (with her first child).  It is reported that she suffered a stillbirth the day following the attack.  She told only her husband about her ordeal.

"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#43 Enmar

Enmar

    a Sabra

  • Islander
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 09:54 AM

Quote

Ogami: God only knows what the going rate is in Kenya for a prostitute, how could rape cases be so widespread when it would cost these soldiers less than a pack of cigarettes? Children are orphaned as their parents die of aids, and then they turn to it to get by. I don't think any of the British soldiers were accused of that.

The cheaper the prostitute is, the more they feel they don't have to pay at all, they can abuse and rape her. The fact that prostitution is so common probably plays a major part in reducing them to demi-humans. And yes, they are accused of raping teenagers.

Quote

Ogami: A word to the wise for any western country sending peacekeepers anywhere. Especially in countries where the largest city employment for women is prostitution...

You know, that bares a striking resemblance to the claim that men should avoid women for the fear of being charged for sexual harassment.
This is very simple. This is a warning that if there are rapes they should be investigated and can not be covered, that's all. You don't have to avoid sending your soldiers anywhere, you have to avoid them raping the locals.

Quote

Ogami:The British have been our honorable partners in military actions for almost a century. They are on the ground with our soldiers in Bosnia and Iraq right now. The article claims this is a 20-year coverup. That is an incredibly steep charge, dramatic claims require dramatic proof.

If someone raped it doesn't really matter how "honorable" a partner he was. It is irrelevant to the discussion and to the truth.
These charges also deserve the chance to be proven, which you don't seem to give them.

Quote

Ogami:That is mere speculation, of course. But to attempt to smear the name of British soldiers for the sake of money is the lowest thing I can imagine.

Try rape :glare:

Quote

Talkie:There is no way that such an outrage could have been covered up for so long so successfully.
I think you got it wrong. I agree that such a system couldn't probably exist. But each single case could have been kept in secret between the "buddies" (many of the allegations refer to gang rape) or silenced by low ranked officers that didn't believe the locals or simply chose to protect their soldiers.

Quote

Ogami: A fascinating examination of mindsets and attitudes, the cult of victimology is alive and prospering quite well, on the left. Just declare yourself a victim, and the other party has to prove their innocence. You don't have to prove your contention at all, how convenient. Those who filed the lawsuit are beyond criticism, and suggesting other motives is beyond the pale. Uh huh.[/B]

You know, maybe you do make our point better than the rest of us.
This is still in process, yet you declared the Kenyan liars and the British army the victim. Now read your words again.

Quote

gigi
speaking as a rape victim
Did I do a mistake by stating "rape" in the title? On another board I'm on we're usually very careful about that, but this isn't a graphic article. What do you think?
Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.

#44 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 09:57 AM

^

Well stated!!!!!!!!!!

And imo you didn't do wrong by putting rape in the title.

Lil
Posted Image

#45 Talkie Toaster

Talkie Toaster

    There's no Shepard without Vakarian

  • Islander
  • 1,136 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 10:12 AM

Enmar, on Jul 3 2003, 10:55 PM, said:

I think you got it wrong. I agree that such a system couldn't probably exist. But each single case could have been kept in secret between the "buddies" (many of the allegations refer to gang rape) or silenced by low ranked officers that didn't believe the locals or simply chose to protect their soldiers.
No- the first article you posted it mentions specifically that senior officers allegedly knew about it. Further, AI claim that these incidents were "well documented".

The British army is being accused of a major coverup- these are serious allegations. I want serious evidence; which I doubt I'm going to see.
Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

#46 GiGi

GiGi

    Lipstick wearing PIG kisser!

  • Islander
  • 8,774 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 10:12 AM

I agree with Lil.

There is no problem Enmar with you putting rape in the title.

There is enough silence and shame about rape anyway.  You all here know more about my situation then my family does....

Luckly for me I wasn't hurt too much physically, much more emotionally.  

I got physically beat up by an ex-boyfriend who was six feet tall.  I didn't have a chance in hell against him when he got angry.  It took the police dragging him away from the house to get rid of him, he would not leave.  I wished that had been sooner, but in my shame of the situation I did not go to the authorities to get pictures of my bashed up face, badly wrenched spine, etc, etc.

Let's say I know men have it in them to do violence against women.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#47 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 10:16 AM

You know I actually think it's pretty naive to think that this kind of cover up is impossible.

Lil
Posted Image

#48 Douglas

Douglas
  • Islander
  • 424 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 10:22 AM

Talkie Toaster, on Jul 3 2003, 11:13 PM, said:

Enmar, on Jul 3 2003, 10:55 PM, said:

I think you got it wrong. I agree that such a system couldn't probably exist. But each single case could have been kept in secret between the "buddies" (many of the allegations refer to gang rape) or silenced by low ranked officers that didn't believe the locals or simply chose to protect their soldiers.
No- the first article you posted it mentions specifically that senior officers allegedly knew about it. Further, AI claim that these incidents were "well documented".

The British army is being accused of a major coverup- these are serious allegations. I want serious evidence; which I doubt I'm going to see.
Higher-ups covering up for misdeeds of troops is by no means unheard of; just look the Somalia Inquiry and what that meant for the Canadian millitary.  These allegations are serious, and need to be taken seriously, not dismissed out of hand.

#49 ArmourMe

ArmourMe
  • Islander
  • 500 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 10:22 AM

It is extraordinary to me that people think military rape crimes are unlikely. They happen ALL the time. Our guys rape civiliain women every day - and their CO's cover it up to keep things running smoothly......

Cover up for any kind of sexual crime by a group toward a group happens all the time.  MOST especially when it comes to military sex crimes.

I'm reading my way through the articles Zack posted from Roling Stone - they're great. Well written, detailed, facinating. And the mysoginy/homophobia in every other sentance from our own troops from the "enlightened" US  just dripps off the page.

Its a side effect of any standing army - in order to learn that kind of dicipline and violence, people expunge their feminine parts completely. Armys are dangerous precisely because of this - but only because of this can they be pointed & fired at the enemy. What a system.

Whew.

AM

Edited by ArmourMe, 04 July 2003 - 10:23 AM.


#50 Josh

Josh

    He stares...

  • Islander
  • 13,774 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 10:26 AM

^

And THAT is why I would make a LOUSY soldier. ;)
"THE UNICORNS ARE NOT TO BE TRIFLED WITH!" - John Burke.

#51 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 10:28 AM

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{AM}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Beautifully said!

Lil
Posted Image

#52 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 10:46 AM

Queen Tiye asked:

Ogami... are you not getting that very few of us saw this as an opportunity to lambaste the British military? This thread went without comment for a good long while. Nobody was overwhelmingly impressed enough to comment. I certainly wasn't.

Are you not getting that some people's knees jerk so quickly that the legs rip off and fly into orbit? I think I've been pretty clear in my posts.

The thing that impressed me enough to comment was your comment that SEEMED to imply that we should simply disregard any and all claims made by prostitutes who only are out for money.

Yes, I do not believe there was any systematic or endemic raping going on, yet Kenya indisputably has a huge prostitution industry. If you count all prostitution in Kenya for the last 20 years, completely consentual and all that, as rape, then you'd have a pretty big lawsuit.

Now the operative concern here is that rapes occur all the time in third world hellholes. Note that no one would ever bother to file such a lawsuit against one tribe or another native to Kenya. Why? Because there's no money there. But the westerners have money, let's sue them. Even if not a single British soldier raped anyone in Kenya. That's how I see it, and I believe the facts will bear this out.

But THAT'S not what you said at first. At first you took a swipe at the women - on the basis that they were probably prostitutes on the make.

I said:

Quote

I don't suppose this could be a case where you had 20 years of Kenyan prostitutes (well known as a chief income for women in third world countries) were told that all they had to do was swear they were raped to get a fat check from the British government?

A word to the wise for any western country sending peacekeepers anywhere. Especially in countries where the largest city employment for women is prostitution...

"suppose", "could be". I meant what I said, and believe the motive and opportunity is there for fraud. This is an attempt to extort money from a country with perceived infinite riches compared to Kenya. Nothing more. That a few thousand British officers and enlisted men become tarnished in that quest for extortion money, who cares about them? Who cares indeed.

-Ogami

#53 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 10:54 AM

Chiron asked:

Ogami, as it has been pointed out, it is the conclusions you are jumping to and your way of stating them that is in disagreement with some of the ladies here. I am not automatically believing the women just because they say they were victimized. But since there is proof, and evidence not just some emotional hysteria and am tending to believe them.

Get off your high horse and come down to my level. You tried to play it heavy-handed and it backfired. You demanded to know if I am sensitive enough, if I've known the pain of being sexually assaulted, I do. Where are your arguments now? Sensitivity is not required to be skeptical of such a ridiculous lawsuit. And frankly I prefer reason and fact to hysteria that you seem to exhibit, lashing out at anyone who disagrees with you as being somehow unqualified to comment on this lawsuit. I'm sorry you were raped, that has nothing to do with whether these accusers are telling the truth. To me, it looks like a money grab at the expense of innocent reputations.

But if you want to believe all men who go into the service are upstanding heros that is your progative. I do not, in fact I have read so many stories that point to the contrary. My neighbor will not speak of the things he did in Vietnam. War is called hell for a reason and it is reasonable in my mind to think that even good guys will snap under the circumstances and do things that they would never imagine themselves doing.

Exceptions are not the rule. The lawsuit alleges the opposite occured, that these rapes were widespread and occured with official sanction for 20 years. Even if every officer 20 years ago was corrupt, there would have been a 100% turnover in staff over that time. It's simply not possible for this to have occured with so many people involved (many in retirement now) and not have it get out. The presumption of innocence is not with any particular British soldier, as there must have been exceptions. But the majority would not do this. (And that goes for the Vietnam soldier, too.)

-Ogami

#54 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 11:04 AM

Enmar wrote:

The cheaper the prostitute is, the more they feel they don't have to pay at all, they can abuse and rape her. The fact that prostitution is so common probably plays a major part in reducing them to demi-humans. And yes, they are accused of raping teenagers.

That's a possibility I had not considered, but you presuppose the same soldier there for 20 years, getting desensitized and all. This isn't Marlon Brando appointing himself warlord out in the middle of a Vietnam jungle, this is reality.

This is very simple. This is a warning that if there are rapes they should be investigated and can not be covered, that's all. You don't have to avoid sending your soldiers anywhere, you have to avoid them raping the locals.

The lawsuit is unbelievable. This is the British military, not the Ugandan Irregular Military Expedition. It ranks up there with the lawsuit in Belgium trying to haul General Tommy Franks up on genocide charges. But the motive in Kenya is money, not justice.

If someone raped it doesn't really matter how "honorable" a partner he was. It is irrelevant to the discussion and to the truth.

No, not 'someone', don't change the facts! It's supposed to be hundreds if not thousands of British military officers roaming through Kenya raping and killing, for twenty years, and with official sanction and impunity. That's bullcrap, and you know it.

These charges also deserve the chance to be proven, which you don't seem to give them.

How?

Try rape

Individual soldiers are fully accountable to regulations on the books. If they haven't been sent to prison, they can be. If every officer above them excused this, they too can be sent to prison. The military code of justice is stricter than civilian penalties. What the lawsuit charges is a systematic corruption, a 20 year rape-a-thon where everyone high-fived each other for getting away with it. It's ridiculous.

You know, maybe you do make our point better than the rest of us. This is still in process, yet you declared the Kenyan liars and the British army the victim. Now read your words again.

The assumption of many on this thread is that since history records soldiers raping sometime in war, then the British must be guilty. The aim of the lawsuit is money, in a country where the majority of women sell themselves to eek out an existence. Do the math.

-Ogami

#55 GiGi

GiGi

    Lipstick wearing PIG kisser!

  • Islander
  • 8,774 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 11:15 AM

^ Whatever...

Your posts feel like attacks not conversations, so this is my last response to you here.

You claim to have been sexually attacked, I am sorry for that.  I would have thought it would have given you the perspective of a little belief in the victims just a bit.

For the record, according to the Amesty Internation boys were also sodomized.

The reports also were clear that the women didn't claim it was all soldiers doing this.  Many reports would say in a group perhaps half would participate and sometimes fellow soldiers would try to stop them.

I don't know if all claims are valid but there is enough evidence that the situation warrents looking into.  In my opinion it is more than a bunch of prostitutes trying to milk the government.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#56 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 11:23 AM

Chiron wrote:

Your posts feel like attacks not conversations, so this is my last response to you here.

This from the person who told me I had no right to an opinion, because she was a rape victim and I supposedly wasn't.

This from the person who told me that I should feel what it's like to be sexually assaulted, which is a straight on attack in my book, lady.

You tried to slap me down with a vicious emotional attack, it didn't work. Would you mind discussing the issue rationally, or can only rape victims speak on this issue as you implied earlier? -sheesh-

-Ogami

#57 Enmar

Enmar

    a Sabra

  • Islander
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 11:33 AM

Quote

Ogami:That's a possibility I had not considered, but you presuppose the same soldier there for 20 years, getting desensitized and all. This isn't Marlon Brando appointing himself warlord out in the middle of a Vietnam jungle, this is reality.

I think you don't understand the mechanism of gang rape. It doesn't take 20 years to get used to the idea, it takes strong bond created in training, it takes the contrast between the life in the base where people tell you what to do and the shocking discovery of how the locals regard you, it takes dehumanization of the victim. It is intense, it doesn't build up. And it seems like the soldiers were always there for short periods of training.

Quote

Ogami:
This is very simple. This is a warning that if there are rapes they should be investigated and can not be covered, that's all. You don't have to avoid sending your soldiers anywhere, you have to avoid them raping the locals.

The lawsuit is unbelievable. This is the British military, not the Ugandan Irregular Military Expedition. It ranks up there with the lawsuit in Belgium trying to haul General Tommy Franks up on genocide charges. But the motive in Kenya is money, not justice.

1. You are avoiding my point. You wrote that this is "A word to the wise for any western country sending peacekeepers anywhere. Especially in countries where the largest city employment for women is prostitution..." I wrote "This is a warning that if there are rapes they should be investigated and can not be covered, that's all." In return, you attack the lawsuit again. This wasn't about it, it was about your comment.
2. I don't like the Belgium "we know what's right and wrong better than anyone else" law, but this is different. And if it's right, than it's about justice, and it's very important.



Quote

Ogami:No, not 'someone', don't change the facts! It's supposed to be hundreds if not thousands of British military officers roaming through Kenya raping and killing, for twenty years, and with official sanction and impunity. That's bullcrap, and you know it.
And I'm changing the facts!?
Over 35 years, different people, different kinds of cover ups, no one's roaming anywhere :glare:

Quote

Ogami:The assumption of many on this thread is that since history records soldiers raping sometime in war, then the British must be guilty. The aim of the lawsuit is money, in a country where the majority of women sell themselves to eek out an existence. Do the math.

No. The assumption of everyone else in this thread is that this needs to be checked. Your assumtion is that since these women are poor, they must be guilty of false accusation.
Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.

#58 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 11:35 AM

Pardon me Enmar, I was busy responding to a Nigerian email that looked honest to me. The wife of the Nigerian information minister was telling me all about how they have some assets frozen, but if I send them a couple thousand dollars, they'll give me a share.

What was that about the honesty of African money schemes?

-Ogami

#59 Fire_Storm20

Fire_Storm20

    I love the smell of napalm in the moring...

  • Islander
  • 187 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 11:45 AM

I have to admit that this Topic is serious, but has been blown out of proportion.  Ogami, you make several good points in this on going spat of arguement (Are you a lawyer by any chance?)  The people in opposition to Ogami's POV have also made a some good points.  

I say we put this on the back burner for a week lets say, and If it hits any major news source (NBC, ABC, CBS, BBC, DWTV, VOA) then let us revive it, and discuss some more.  

Plus the back and forth is givin me a headache!  :wacko:

--FS20

#60 Enmar

Enmar

    a Sabra

  • Islander
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 04 July 2003 - 11:46 AM

Quote

Ogami:This from the person who told me I had no right to an opinion, because she was a rape victim and I supposedly wasn't.

She did not say that. I read the entire thread again, just for you.

Quote

Ogami: This from the person who told me that I should feel what it's like to be sexually assaulted, which is a straight on attack in my book, lady.
That was a bad remark.

Quote

Ogami:You tried to slap me down with a vicious emotional attack, it didn't work. Would you mind discussing the issue rationally, or can only rape victims speak on this issue as you implied earlier? -sheesh-

The only one emotional here is you. She was very cool, actually:
Chiron: "I am not automatically believing the women just because they say they were victimized. But since there is proof, and evidence not just some emotional hysteria and am tending to believe them."
Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Rape, Gang Rape, Kenya

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users