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Smokers are banned from fostering

Health Smoking 2008

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#41 Paul

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 11:27 AM

View PostG1223, on Nov 5 2008, 05:19 PM, said:

Then people who have physical disabilites and then the elderly

People who would be unable to care for the children would be disqualified by the selection committee.

Quote

and where are you going to simply allow people who care for childs to raise them when they otherwise will get a quality institutional raising?

You know somewhere along the way I think the Health Police are going to push things to far.

I agree that there is the danger of that, yes.
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#42 Batrochides

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 12:20 PM

Simple way to separate the wheat from the chaff in this debate:

Would those who would favor the State banning smokers from becoming foster parents--presumably on the grounds that second-hand tobacco smoke is harmful to children--extend that prohibition to smokers of marijuana?

Batrochides

#43 Broph

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 12:40 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Nov 5 2008, 03:50 PM, said:

Broph- do you believe that a blanket ban is the right thing to do? Or do you think that occasional smokers should be allowed in for consideration?

I don't think we'll get them, but I'd like to know the numbers. How many kids are being affected, how many smokers, etc.

A foster home may be better than an orphanage, but I'd hate to think that the health of some kids are put at risk.

But people do change - what if someone is an occasional smoker when interviewed, but starts smoking heavily after taking on foster kids?

#44 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 01:09 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Nov 5 2008, 06:40 AM, said:

What do you think?

Sparky

Do you really want an answer, from me, on that? You know where I stand.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#45 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 01:10 PM

View PostKosh, on Nov 5 2008, 06:46 AM, said:

A Good call. It keeps them from the second hand smoke, and helps prevent the kids from the example.


Yep, let's just hope the kids don't starve on the streets, rather then have people who can provide for them and care for them. Yep, some would rather these kids starve, have to fend for themselves, rather then be fostered by the evil incarnate smokers.

Not saying that you are one of those people, Kosh. But there are some out there like that.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#46 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 01:12 PM

View PostBroph, on Nov 5 2008, 06:59 AM, said:

Tough call. Of course it's bull that it's about "stigmatizing smokers". Once again, a smoker has made it about them and not about what's really important - the child.

Second-hand smoke kills. Children shouldn't have to be put in such an environment, though I'm sure a number of smokers would agree to only smoke outside. And foster care is probably better than a lot of alternatives.


LOL....Oh good GOD. How many times are you and I going to butt heads on this issue? LOL.

I disagree with your call of Bull...It is about stigmatizing the smokers, trying to make them into second class citizens.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#47 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 01:15 PM

View PostBroph, on Nov 5 2008, 07:00 AM, said:

What about the children's "civil liberties", or more importantly, their health?


Hmmmm......being fostered by smokers, OR, living life on the streets, not knowing where your next meal is coming from, nobody looking out for you.....Which do you think the kid's would chosse?

oh! that's right. Nobody ASKED the kids....they just discriminated against the smokers.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#48 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 01:25 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Nov 5 2008, 09:50 AM, said:

I think there is a big difference between parents who eat too much and parents who smoke. As Broph notes, you would have to physically force the child to eat fatty foods, not just give them the option. And fat is actually a good thing, in moderation. Second hand smoke is not a good thing. Ever.

Sparky


And if the ONLY food in the house is junk food? or fattening food? how is that NOT focing the kid to eat it?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#49 SparkyCola

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:09 PM

^ I don't feel you're responding the points I actually made there.

Quote

oh! that's right. Nobody ASKED the kids....they just discriminated against the smokers.

Actually someone did ask the kids. As Broph notes, the article reads as follows:

Quote

"The plans met with mixed reactions from foster carers before the vote but the majority of fostered children consulted previously were in favour of the policy. "

The majority said they'd rather stay *in an orphanage or wait to be fostered by someone else* (what orphanages do you know? Srsly? They just chuck kids out on the street?!) rather than be in a smoke filled house.

And yes, of course I want to know what you think. I'm always interested in knowing what you think :) Your thoughtful contribution will be particularly valued here, where it is likely to be different from the majority.

On the other hand:

Quote

But people do change - what if someone is an occasional smoker when interviewed, but starts smoking heavily after taking on foster kids?

...but you could say that someone who doesn't smoke at all could start smoking heavily after taking on foster kids.

Sparky

Edited by SparkyCola, 05 November 2008 - 02:10 PM.

Able to entertain a thought without taking it home to meet the parents

#50 Broph

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:38 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on Nov 5 2008, 06:15 PM, said:

oh! that's right. Nobody ASKED the kids....they just discriminated against the smokers.

Actually, they did ask the kids. It's in the article.

#51 Godeskian

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:44 PM

Which keeps getting mentioned whenever the the argument turns back to them. I'm not sure if people aren't reading it or are ignoring it, but it's weird.

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#52 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:54 PM

View PostBroph, on Nov 5 2008, 02:38 PM, said:

Actually, they did ask the kids. It's in the article.


I missed that part, or unconsciously skipped over it.

Fine, they asked the kids...kids said that they would rather stay in a orphanage...so be it. Let the kids stay there, or on the street for all I care. I'm sick of smokers being stigmatized and discriminated against. So if these kids would rather not have people who would care and look out for them...fine, let the kids make it on their own. See how far they get.

And before anyone says: "oh that is cruel." or "that's not right"....Well it isn't right to discriminate against smokers either, but since it seems PC to do so, it is alright.

Sorry, this is one smoker that has had enough. So let the kids fend for themselves. Pay for their own clothes, food, ect.....Will not loose a moments sleep over it.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#53 Broph

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 03:00 PM

^But it's the same argument that I give regarding smoking in a restaurant. Why should the roof over their head and the food on their table come at the cost of having to breathe someone else's smoke?

This isn't about the smoker. It's about the kids.

#54 Godeskian

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 03:01 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on Nov 5 2008, 07:54 PM, said:

Fine, they asked the kids...kids said that they would rather stay in a orphanage...so be it. Let the kids stay there, or on the street for all I care. I'm sick of smokers being stigmatized and discriminated against. So if these kids would rather not have people who would care and look out for them...fine, let the kids make it on their own. See how far they get.

I believe the argument goes that people who smoke would per definition not be caring or looking out for them because of second-hand smoke issues.

I can see your point, but from the perspective of the council who authorised this it's inherently contradictory.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#55 silverwind

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 03:16 PM

I fully admit that I know nothing about the UK's fostering system (and darn little about the US's either).

I can definitely see banning heavy/chain smokers from fostering, due to the health risks inherent in such behaviors.  For a light smoker?  Or an outdoors-only smoker?

I'd say:

1.  Offer them help to quit, for their health and the kids'.  Training programs, reduced cost on stop-smoking-aids, whatever is deemed best.  At the very least, ask that if they wish to foster kids, they make sacrifices in that they don't smoke indoors and/or cut back in the sheer volume.

2.  Give the kids a choice.  For extremely young kids (say, up to 5 years), prioritize them for non-smoking households.  For older kids, ask them.  For those who absolutely do not want to be in a home with a smoker, don't force them into it.  For kids it doesn't bother (who may have come from smoking families to start with), they can go into those families.

As for the "other unhealthy behavior" argument, that's something that seems like it could be addressed through education programs for the foster parents, and checking up with the kids during vists to ask "What do you usually eat at home?  What's a typical dinner?"  If a problem is spotted (i.e. the family eats at fish-and-chips places too often to be healthy), talk to them about it and work it out.

#56 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 03:20 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Nov 5 2008, 03:01 PM, said:

I can see your point, but from the perspective of the council who authorised this it's inherently contradictory.

Then let that council foster the kids.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#57 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 04:02 PM

You know, I can't wait for the day that the US elects a President who is a smoker.


Though with the PC climate, there would be no way that would happen. Still, it would be nice.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#58 SparkyCola

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 04:05 PM

Quote

I fully admit that I know nothing about the UK's fostering system (and darn little about the US's either).

I can definitely see banning heavy/chain smokers from fostering, due to the health risks inherent in such behaviors. For a light smoker? Or an outdoors-only smoker?

I'd say:

1. Offer them help to quit, for their health and the kids'. Training programs, reduced cost on stop-smoking-aids, whatever is deemed best. At the very least, ask that if they wish to foster kids, they make sacrifices in that they don't smoke indoors and/or cut back in the sheer volume.

2. Give the kids a choice. For extremely young kids (say, up to 5 years), prioritize them for non-smoking households. For older kids, ask them. For those who absolutely do not want to be in a home with a smoker, don't force them into it. For kids it doesn't bother (who may have come from smoking families to start with), they can go into those families.

As for the "other unhealthy behavior" argument, that's something that seems like it could be addressed through education programs for the foster parents, and checking up with the kids during vists to ask "What do you usually eat at home? What's a typical dinner?" If a problem is spotted (i.e. the family eats at fish-and-chips places too often to be healthy), talk to them about it and work it out.

Great post, silverwind :cool: You seem to have done the *truly* un-PC thing, and used your common sense :p

Sparky
Able to entertain a thought without taking it home to meet the parents

#59 eechick

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 04:15 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on Nov 5 2008, 01:02 PM, said:

You know, I can't wait for the day that the US elects a President who is a smoker.
I think we just did ;).
http://abcnews.go.co...l...9514&page=1
http://abcnews.go.co...=2855994&page=2
http://blogs.abcnews...-admits-sm.html

Edited by are we there yet, 05 November 2008 - 04:16 PM.


#60 silverwind

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 04:45 PM

And I'm sure not a few of the Founding Fathers were smokers. ;)

Sparky:  I'm just of the opinion that people are not that different from dogs. :hehe: You don't train a dog to go outside to the bathroom by making a "You cannot pee in the house" rule.  You train them by discouraging the bad behavior and encouraging the good.

Edited by silverwind, 05 November 2008 - 04:46 PM.




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