63 replies to this topic

[Drew]

Peridot, on Jul 11 2003, 01:41 PM, said:

However, other sociologists would look at it from a linguistic point of view.  Men and women often have different communication styles, and some of what appear to be "mind games", when viewed across gender lines, may simply reflect some of these differences.  Each person may be genuinely trying to communicate; each may feel misunderstood, or feel manipulated when that is, in fact, not the case.

That helps me understand a bit what Lil was trying to say. Yes, I think that miscommunications may often appear like mind games, but for the lack of guile.

[Drew]

ElJay, on Jul 11 2003, 02:09 PM, said:

It's hard to shoot straight from the hip and say, "Sorry, I'm not interested," but I think perhaps it would hurt less; at the very least, it would be quicker.

And maybe because men tend to be more straightforward (a generalization, I know), women more often get the reputation of playing mind games.

[the 'Hawk]

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Well... THAT'S disheartening!

Note that I said "could be".

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She doesn't call? Must've been something I said.

This point here - "must be something you said" seems to negate it being a "mind game."  If you said something to upset someone, and they are not talking to you because they are angry - it seems that that's appropriate!  If on the other hand, she is weilding her not speaking to you like a weapon - taking every opportunity to stop speaking to you to bring you around to her point of view, that seems to be manipulative behavior - what I would consider a "mind game."

That's what I meant-- not-talking for malicious, unjustified reasons, in order to see how many messages I leave on her machine. Twelve means you care.

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  K... I'm sure I don't understand any of that... but trying here... what are the expected outcomes of these different internalization processes?

I don't know, it's just been my experience....

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'Hawk, the - n. a really cool, eloquent, and frequent poster on Ex Isle, with an amazing sense of humor, and a bit too much of a tendency to knock oneself.

What's your point?  Anyway, what does disconnecting one issue from the rest have to do with name calling?  What does NOT disconnecting one issue from the rest result in?

If you disconnect the issue, you can treat it as an isolated incident and not worry about it anymore. Not disconnecting the issue makes it about you. Disconnecting makes it about her. Most guys I know have no problem making it *all* about her. Even stuff that's clearly not her fault. Scapegoating, as compared to taking it internally.

I discussed this with a dear female friend last night, and her words fit the topic at this point better than mine could: "I've always had responsibilities for everything, and that doesn't stop because I leave the house. So I make [her boyfriend-- no, it's not me] my responsibility, too. He doesn't make me his responsibility because he's usually too busy making his PlayStation his responsibility."

I asked her a big long-ass question about responsibility and relativity and it was really good but I forget how it went-- something about if she'd agree that guys see responsibility expressed best in active display while women see it best expressed in productive display (the example I remember using was buying roses vs. cleaning the house), but it sounded better when I asked her. She basically said, "I don't get either of those." So I dropped the subject.

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O.k. so my understanding here is that the accusation of "mind games" may arise from people (particularly men?) wanting to be in control of the situation... with a result that they interpret events for everyone in a way that leaves them in control.  Not knowing why a woman does something or another, and in the absence of information, they simply supply the interpretation themselves, call the woman's actions "mind games" so that they are released from the uncertainty of the situation.

Precisely. "Mind games" can be independently verified and sworn at by everyone. Simplification for easy assimilation for quick reaction. Typical male impulse.

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This works for my own experience - and has the advantage of being able to be applied both when the accusation of "mind games" is legitimate and when it is not (by my understanding of the term, which so far, agrees mostly with Drew's)

Yeah-- basically, you can't go wrong in presuming the worst about someone, because they'll either prove you right and be easy to get rid of, or you'll find something wrong anyway that you'll make bad enough to justify either acting against them or ignoring them.

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What do any of those quotes have to do with "Mind games?"  And ... why don't women accuse men of playing mind games when they say things like that? 

That's just it, though. They are. They just don't use the term "mind games".

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I know what each statement means... "men are pigs" means that they are inconsiderate, especially of the feelings of others, "guys are players" means that they cheat, "can't make up their minds" means that guys are not making a commitment, or that they say they want commitment, but then the go back to playing the field... 

Okay, but try this on for size.

Men cheating, avoiding commitment, and acting inconsiderately tends to stem from the basic fact that they're uncertain, scared, and defensive. All three of those things are probably defensive actions.

Women playing mind games, attempting to figure out where the guy stands, and going 'mind games' on some guy tends to stem from the same basic fact.

What I'm trying to say is that men use poor discretion to move things in a direction and women using indirection to attempt to determine the man's position is all part of the same thing. They just do different things.

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But I don't hear women saying "no more mind games" which is the constant refrain of guys... and quite often, it is in description of the same behavior (above)!

Yep. Because women have their own refrain. I'm not going to play the "women passive, men active" card, and I'm also going to circumvent the "nesting vs hunting" argument, because I'd be laying my own minefield there, but I will say this.

A smart man will be able to both figure out what she wants AND figure out what he wants, while never forcing the situation in such a way to take himself off her list of what she wants. Even if she doesn't know what she wants, he can't force the issue by playing or by cheating or by telling her off or whatever. The only way for it to work is to be patient. And not go walking on the mines either she's or he's laid.

A smart woman will be able to sort out what she needs to do to get what she wants, determine for certain if it's going to help or simply be more work to gain it, and then find out if she can keep it. If he's patient, he's worth it.

This, of course, is entirely my perspective. A perspective shaped almost entirely by the fact that I'm patient. And it doesn't get me so much as a date.

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In fact - I once was told (similar to your statement above) that women globalize things, while men are very specific... yet - here women are specifically naming behaviors they don't like, while it seems to be men who deploy the global term "mind games."  What is different about the idea of "mind games" that justifies the "specificity driven" male mind to lump all these things together under this heading?

There's a paradox there that I've identified previous. To wit, women can name specific undesirable behaviours but see the broader picture easily, while men divide things specifically and then throw those things entirely under one heading. It's not a perfect dichotomy --I tend to be fond of the big picture myself-- but there is some truth to it, a truth I don't pretend to fully embrace nor understand.

[Drew]

the'Hawk, on Jul 11 2003, 03:11 PM, said:

A smart man will be able to both figure out what she wants AND figure out what he wants, while never forcing the situation in such a way to take himself off her list of what she wants.

If you're not interested in being the person she says she wants, be the person she doesn't know she wants until she sees him in action.  

When it comes to winning the fair maiden, what you want (apart from the fair maiden herself) ranks very low. Love is servanthood.

Edited by Drew, 12 July 2003 - 07:24 AM.

[Bad Wolf]

Drew, on Jul 11 2003, 12:13 PM, said:

Peridot, on Jul 11 2003, 01:41 PM, said:

However, other sociologists would look at it from a linguistic point of view.  Men and women often have different communication styles, and some of what appear to be "mind games", when viewed across gender lines, may simply reflect some of these differences.  Each person may be genuinely trying to communicate; each may feel misunderstood, or feel manipulated when that is, in fact, not the case.

That helps me understand a bit what Lil was trying to say. Yes, I think that miscommunications may often appear like mind games, but for the lack of guile.

Thanks Peridot.

Yup Drew that's pretty much what I was getting at.

I also think that people have a tendency to call something a mind game when what it really is is a matter of variance in feelings.  Maybe on Monday I'm ready to take that second step.  Maybe I've reevaluated by Tuesday and genuinely want to slow down.  That is not a deliberate manipulation it's a matter of changing feelings.

You know that cliche about women and changing their minds?  I think that maybe some men see a woman who does that as someone playing games when what has happened is a genuine change in feelings.

Where I personally think the trouble comes (speaking for myself) is that it's hard for me to talk to men about that kind of thing.  

Lil

[Lover of Purple]

This brings up what I think is the main problem in relationships. Men and women have very different ways they react to emotions and interactions. Often neither side understands the other. It is almost what it might be like trying to communicate with an alien. And I mean this for BOTH sides.

We get into my evil past.................

My first wife and I definately had communication problems and compounding that was the feeling that we did understand. We really didn't. My ex decided to not work on this, while I started taking seminars in communication.

Leap tp present day....................(you poor souls )

My current wife and I still have times when our communication seems off, but because of the hours I've spent in learning communication skills, we work them out. Mrs. LoP ( ) says she is learning alot about communicating now. She had never realized how different men and women see things. She is now studying communication skills. It not only helps our relationship, it helps with all dealings we both have with others.

So, what am I saying? Learn to communicate well before you think someone is playing "mind games". They may be, or you just may not understand each other. One of the seminars had each of us thinking about things that happened in the past where miscommunication might have been the problem. Guess what I found, some of my thinking that a former girlfriend was playing mind games was me not understanding her.

and most important....Talk about it!

Okay, that's the end of Dear LoP.

[Bad Wolf]

*Thinks that the current Mrs. LOP is a very lucky lady!

[Lover of Purple]

Una Salus Lillius, on Jul 11 2003, 02:48 PM, said:

*Thinks that the current Mrs. LOP is a very lucky lady!

Golly, thanks Lil.  

Actually, I'm the lucky one.

[QueenTiye]

Peridot, on Jul 11 2003, 02:41 PM, said:

For a basic description of what constitutes such games, you might want to see if you can get a hold of a copy of Games People Play, by Eric Berne, M.D.  It was based on his experiences working with various clients,  and although it was written a number of years ago, and might be out of date in some ways, his basic description of the structure of such games would still hold as true as before.

Thanks! Adding to the book list!

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As to the second question, it's pretty complex, and could be addressed from a number of angles.  Some sociologists would probably approach it from the angle than women can be seen as an oppressed class, and that any oppressed group, because they have less overt power, will try to find ways to develop covert power, including manipulative behavior.  (This is one of the reasons children are sometimes so manipulative; not that they're necessarily oppressed, but they do typically have less power than adults, especially in the child-parent relationship

However, other sociologists would look at it from a linguistic point of view.  Men and women often have different communication styles, and some of what appear to be "mind games", when viewed across gender lines, may simply reflect some of these differences.  Each person may be genuinely trying to communicate; each may feel misunderstood, or feel manipulated when that is, in fact, not the case.

And I'm inclined to think both are right. (I'm so easy - I always agree with everybody! LOL!)

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There are a couple of books out on the above concept, which were written by a linguist; I haven't read them, but I'll see if I can find the author's name and the title for you, if you're interested.

I'm interested.

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As far as women perceiving globally, and men perceiving specifically, I'm not aware of that being the case.  For a good description of different ways of perceiving, I highly recommend The Way They Learn by Cynthia Ulrich Tobias.  It's basically designed to help parents understand the different learning styles children may have, but a great deal of the book is equally applicable to adults.  She covers the global/analytic difference, as well as several others.

Hope this information is of help.

It does!

[Delvo]

There's much too much to respond to here, but let me throw in a general reaction to all: Looking at this only in terms of romantic/sexual/dating/love relationships is easy, but too limited. Think also of people's reactions to each other in other kinds of relationships, even all the way back to when they're kids who mostly socialize with their own sex (when girls bring each other to tears with words and social schemes and boys do it with hands and feet).

[QueenTiye]

Drew's original post addressed non-romantic situations.

QT

[DWF]

Una Salus Lillius, on Jul 11 2003, 01:24 PM, said:

I think that a lot of what gets called a "mind game" is not one, because for me a mind game has to be deliberate and it seems to me that a lot of things that get called mind games (like the situation QT described for example) is nothing more than a disconnect in communications.

Lil

While I agree, we all have trouble getting out point across, sometimes the degree of misunderstanding, cause harm, whether it's meant that way, or not. Then it gets chalked up to, one thing or another, and one of those things is mind games.   

[Gvambat]

I've always applied that phrase more to relationships within one gender than male/female relationships.

In my high school (a place I was most grateful to escape), if two guys had an issue they were going to settle, it generally happened out in the open. Issues between two girls, especially if one or both was particularly popular, did not. Issues didn't result in confrontation, they resulted in some really vicious rumors being spread, sometimes months later.

Of course, this is a vast generality and things didn't and don't always happen that way, but that was the pattern that I observed most often.

[sierraleone]

Delvo, on Jul 11 2003, 06:04 PM, said:

There's much too much to respond to here, but let me throw in a general reaction to all: Looking at this only in terms of romantic/sexual/dating/love relationships is easy, but too limited. Think also of people's reactions to each other in other kinds of relationships, even all the way back to when they're kids who mostly socialize with their own sex (when girls bring each other to tears with words and social schemes and boys do it with hands and feet).

I think Boys start off as verbal, and things heat up from there. But I also think we also probably donèt pay as much attention to boys verbally hurting boys. ¨They are only words¨¨Just ignorn them¨ And a million other comments basically telling boys just to tough it up when they are being hurt, emotionally or physically   Boys are taught from an early age to disconnect from their feelings and or cover their feelings with anger. Anger and aggression is always an appropiate response... if it isnèt down right suppression of their emotions. Showing your ¨weak¨ feelings is bad.... I feel sorry for my brother, I am glad I wasnèt a boy, no offense to guys.

Girls are taught that fighting isnèt a girl thing to do... though thats changing. The number of girl gangs, and teenage violence done by girls is one the rise (for better or worse.... its almost to be expected though, with the changing role of women, and them being equal to men, and allowed to be physical or smart or whatever they want to be ). But girls needed a way to fight back somehow, when they were suppose to follow a certain model of feminity, which probably lead to manipulations and such, because its harder to prove, and isnèt out in the open so much.

[Josh]

^

Agreed. We have a SERIOUS cultural problem with men and expressing their emotions. Or more accurately, their lack of doing so. It's like we've been taught that emotional expression is a bad thing and you should contain everything and not show weakness. Frankly, it's bull.

[sierraleone]

¨My brother clams up like clam shell whenever anything is bothering him   And he is an elementary student. He might be just one of those people, but I suspect hes a real softy inside forced to make this huge protective shell       He does not like to talk to anyone about his feelings, other than light hearted humour and fun. Its enough to make me tear up, infact it is, but I can not seem to find the appropiate smiley to express how much this saddens me.

[Josh]

^

I used to do that as well... sometimes it's easier to bottle things inside than try and express them. It's not easier in the long run of course, but at that age, it's hard to understand that.

Our culture demands this macho attitude in men that frankly makes me sick.

[sierraleone]

Heck, what they forced on women was not much better until a few years ago, and even now.... body image, having to do it ¨all¨(as in married, with great husband, great kids, keep the house running like Martha Steward, and having a great career .... yeah right, I can achieve that ) and old ideas keep poping up here and there. But I think there has been much to much focus on women and girls. We are ignorning guys for girls   I think society is just in a bad state in general.

Also, I think the women and girls being manipulative, submersive, or such, is another side effect from a form of suppressing emotions. Women were not traditionally encouraged to show, express, face, admit, or confind in ¨guy¨emotions (anger, aggression, ambition, etc). How else to best express these emotions, if you can do it for real, is to plot peoples downfall (emotionally, career-wise, whatever) to help you up? Where as guys have to stuff their ¨womanly¨ emotions or display in acceptable ways (anger, aggression, etc). I really can not see a way out for guys like that of women, except being repressive and aggressive. Either way, its a blow to both genders  

Edited by sierraleone, 12 July 2003 - 07:41 PM.

[Josh]

^

I think society has forgotten how to take care of its own... partly because there's no longer any time if you're working a job, supporting a family and doing everything in between. Who can find the time to take care of yourself? It's just sad...

[sierraleone]

^ And when we do have ¨time¨ for ourselves, its spent doing unhealthy things   Whether you are talking about over eating, under eating, strict (but healthy) eating - partying to excess - having meaningless relationships - watching TV - um *looks at whats shes doing*   - among many more. We all have our vices I guess I should say as well But is it just me, or has *all* of society seem to not only disconnected from others, but themselves as well?

Edited by sierraleone, 12 July 2003 - 07:50 PM.