Peridot, on Jul 11 2003, 01:41 PM, said:


#21
Posted 12 July 2003 - 06:17 AM
#22
Posted 12 July 2003 - 06:19 AM
ElJay, on Jul 11 2003, 02:09 PM, said:
#23
Posted 12 July 2003 - 07:15 AM
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Note that I said "could be".
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This point here - "must be something you said" seems to negate it being a "mind game." If you said something to upset someone, and they are not talking to you because they are angry - it seems that that's appropriate! If on the other hand, she is weilding her not speaking to you like a weapon - taking every opportunity to stop speaking to you to bring you around to her point of view, that seems to be manipulative behavior - what I would consider a "mind game."
That's what I meant-- not-talking for malicious, unjustified reasons, in order to see how many messages I leave on her machine. Twelve means you care.

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I don't know, it's just been my experience....
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What's your point? Anyway, what does disconnecting one issue from the rest have to do with name calling? What does NOT disconnecting one issue from the rest result in?
If you disconnect the issue, you can treat it as an isolated incident and not worry about it anymore. Not disconnecting the issue makes it about you. Disconnecting makes it about her. Most guys I know have no problem making it *all* about her. Even stuff that's clearly not her fault. Scapegoating, as compared to taking it internally.
I discussed this with a dear female friend last night, and her words fit the topic at this point better than mine could: "I've always had responsibilities for everything, and that doesn't stop because I leave the house. So I make [her boyfriend-- no, it's not me] my responsibility, too. He doesn't make me his responsibility because he's usually too busy making his PlayStation his responsibility."
I asked her a big long-ass question about responsibility and relativity and it was really good but I forget how it went-- something about if she'd agree that guys see responsibility expressed best in active display while women see it best expressed in productive display (the example I remember using was buying roses vs. cleaning the house), but it sounded better when I asked her. She basically said, "I don't get either of those." So I dropped the subject.
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Precisely. "Mind games" can be independently verified and sworn at by everyone. Simplification for easy assimilation for quick reaction. Typical male impulse.
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Yeah-- basically, you can't go wrong in presuming the worst about someone, because they'll either prove you right and be easy to get rid of, or you'll find something wrong anyway that you'll make bad enough to justify either acting against them or ignoring them.
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That's just it, though. They are. They just don't use the term "mind games".
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Okay, but try this on for size.
Men cheating, avoiding commitment, and acting inconsiderately tends to stem from the basic fact that they're uncertain, scared, and defensive. All three of those things are probably defensive actions.
Women playing mind games, attempting to figure out where the guy stands, and going 'mind games' on some guy tends to stem from the same basic fact.
What I'm trying to say is that men use poor discretion to move things in a direction and women using indirection to attempt to determine the man's position is all part of the same thing. They just do different things.
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Yep. Because women have their own refrain. I'm not going to play the "women passive, men active" card, and I'm also going to circumvent the "nesting vs hunting" argument, because I'd be laying my own minefield there, but I will say this.
A smart man will be able to both figure out what she wants AND figure out what he wants, while never forcing the situation in such a way to take himself off her list of what she wants. Even if she doesn't know what she wants, he can't force the issue by playing or by cheating or by telling her off or whatever. The only way for it to work is to be patient. And not go walking on the mines either she's or he's laid.
A smart woman will be able to sort out what she needs to do to get what she wants, determine for certain if it's going to help or simply be more work to gain it, and then find out if she can keep it. If he's patient, he's worth it.
This, of course, is entirely my perspective. A perspective shaped almost entirely by the fact that I'm patient. And it doesn't get me so much as a date.
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There's a paradox there that I've identified previous. To wit, women can name specific undesirable behaviours but see the broader picture easily, while men divide things specifically and then throw those things entirely under one heading. It's not a perfect dichotomy --I tend to be fond of the big picture myself-- but there is some truth to it, a truth I don't pretend to fully embrace nor understand.

~ Eomer, LotR:RotK
#24
Posted 12 July 2003 - 07:23 AM
the'Hawk, on Jul 11 2003, 03:11 PM, said:

When it comes to winning the fair maiden, what you want (apart from the fair maiden herself) ranks very low. Love is servanthood.
Edited by Drew, 12 July 2003 - 07:24 AM.
#25
Posted 12 July 2003 - 08:25 AM
Drew, on Jul 11 2003, 12:13 PM, said:
Peridot, on Jul 11 2003, 01:41 PM, said:
Yup Drew that's pretty much what I was getting at.
I also think that people have a tendency to call something a mind game when what it really is is a matter of variance in feelings. Maybe on Monday I'm ready to take that second step. Maybe I've reevaluated by Tuesday and genuinely want to slow down. That is not a deliberate manipulation it's a matter of changing feelings.
You know that cliche about women and changing their minds? I think that maybe some men see a woman who does that as someone playing games when what has happened is a genuine change in feelings.
Where I personally think the trouble comes (speaking for myself) is that it's hard for me to talk to men about that kind of thing.
Lil

#26
Posted 12 July 2003 - 08:51 AM
We get into my evil past.................

My first wife and I definately had communication problems and compounding that was the feeling that we did understand. We really didn't. My ex decided to not work on this, while I started taking seminars in communication.
Leap tp present day....................(you poor souls

My current wife and I still have times when our communication seems off, but because of the hours I've spent in learning communication skills, we work them out. Mrs. LoP (

So, what am I saying? Learn to communicate well before you think someone is playing "mind games". They may be, or you just may not understand each other. One of the seminars had each of us thinking about things that happened in the past where miscommunication might have been the problem. Guess what I found, some of my thinking that a former girlfriend was playing mind games was me not understanding her.
and most important....Talk about it!
Okay, that's the end of Dear LoP.



#27
Posted 12 July 2003 - 08:52 AM


#28
Posted 12 July 2003 - 08:55 AM
Una Salus Lillius, on Jul 11 2003, 02:48 PM, said:


Actually, I'm the lucky one.

#29
Posted 12 July 2003 - 12:47 PM
Peridot, on Jul 11 2003, 02:41 PM, said:
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However, other sociologists would look at it from a linguistic point of view. Men and women often have different communication styles, and some of what appear to be "mind games", when viewed across gender lines, may simply reflect some of these differences. Each person may be genuinely trying to communicate; each may feel misunderstood, or feel manipulated when that is, in fact, not the case.
And I'm inclined to think both are right. (I'm so easy - I always agree with everybody! LOL!)
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I'm interested.
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Hope this information is of help.

It does!

Een Draght Mackt Maght
#30
Posted 12 July 2003 - 01:08 PM
#31
Posted 12 July 2003 - 02:57 PM
QT
Een Draght Mackt Maght
#32
Posted 12 July 2003 - 03:23 PM
Una Salus Lillius, on Jul 11 2003, 01:24 PM, said:
Lil


"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido
#33
Posted 12 July 2003 - 03:46 PM
In my high school (a place I was most grateful to escape), if two guys had an issue they were going to settle, it generally happened out in the open. Issues between two girls, especially if one or both was particularly popular, did not. Issues didn't result in confrontation, they resulted in some really vicious rumors being spread, sometimes months later.
Of course, this is a vast generality and things didn't and don't always happen that way, but that was the pattern that I observed most often.
#34
Posted 12 July 2003 - 06:04 PM
Delvo, on Jul 11 2003, 06:04 PM, said:

Girls are taught that fighting isnèt a girl thing to do... though thats changing. The number of girl gangs, and teenage violence done by girls is one the rise (for better or worse.... its almost to be expected though, with the changing role of women, and them being equal to men, and allowed to be physical or smart or whatever they want to be ). But girls needed a way to fight back somehow, when they were suppose to follow a certain model of feminity, which probably lead to manipulations and such, because its harder to prove, and isnèt out in the open so much.
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html
#35
Posted 12 July 2003 - 06:57 PM
Agreed. We have a SERIOUS cultural problem with men and expressing their emotions. Or more accurately, their lack of doing so. It's like we've been taught that emotional expression is a bad thing and you should contain everything and not show weakness. Frankly, it's bull.
#36
Posted 12 July 2003 - 07:22 PM




Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html
#37
Posted 12 July 2003 - 07:26 PM
I used to do that as well... sometimes it's easier to bottle things inside than try and express them. It's not easier in the long run of course, but at that age, it's hard to understand that.
Our culture demands this macho attitude in men that frankly makes me sick.
#38
Posted 12 July 2003 - 07:32 PM



Also, I think the women and girls being manipulative, submersive, or such, is another side effect from a form of suppressing emotions. Women were not traditionally encouraged to show, express, face, admit, or confind in ¨guy¨emotions (anger, aggression, ambition, etc). How else to best express these emotions, if you can do it for real, is to plot peoples downfall (emotionally, career-wise, whatever) to help you up? Where as guys have to stuff their ¨womanly¨ emotions or display in acceptable ways (anger, aggression, etc). I really can not see a way out for guys like that of women, except being repressive and aggressive. Either way, its a blow to both genders

Edited by sierraleone, 12 July 2003 - 07:41 PM.
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html
#39
Posted 12 July 2003 - 07:40 PM
I think society has forgotten how to take care of its own... partly because there's no longer any time if you're working a job, supporting a family and doing everything in between. Who can find the time to take care of yourself? It's just sad...
#40
Posted 12 July 2003 - 07:49 PM



Edited by sierraleone, 12 July 2003 - 07:50 PM.
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html
Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Sociology, Women, Men, Mind Games
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