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A New Cigarette Hazard: ‘Third-Hand Smoke’

Public Health Smoking 2009 3rd hand smoke

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#21 SparkyCola

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 08:39 PM

I'm with Balth on this one.

I don't think the quantities would be significant.

That people think "toxic chemicals = duh, obviously bad" is completely meaningless, to me. People used to think radiation was more dangerous than it is - actually, in small quantities it's completely harmless- no where near as bad as people expected it to be. People encounter radiation very frequently. Another example is cyanide. A lethal chemical - but humans can process small quantities of cyanide- and every time you eat an apple pip that's exactly what your body does, as pips contain cyanide.

So it's not that "duh obvious" after all. In fact, it would take a lot more than this to convince me of the fact. To me, intuitively, it seems extremely dubious. Perhaps that's because of the known factor of anti-smoking bias that is almost certainly present.

On the other hand, I think smokers generally, and in this thread, don't help themselves much with meaningless rhetoric and declaring everyone against them all the time. I know you're probably sick of stuff like this, and ya know? I would be pissed off too- I can understand it. I'm anti-smoking, but not anti-smoker, and I get turned off by anti-smoker stuff too. But it's like we can't talk about any smoking related issue at all without being accused of being anti-smoker, and then you just leave in a huff. How is that helpful? I'm just asking for a bit of patience and mutual exchange of opinions without getting over-sensitive. That said- {{{{{{{{{{{smokers}}}}}}}}}}}}} cos you do have to take a lot of crap.

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#22 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 09:16 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Jan 6 2009, 08:39 PM, said:

On the other hand, I think smokers generally, and in this thread, don't help themselves much with meaningless rhetoric and declaring everyone against them all the time. I know you're probably sick of stuff like this, and ya know? I would be pissed off too- I can understand it. I'm anti-smoking, but not anti-smoker, and I get turned off by anti-smoker stuff too. But it's like we can't talk about any smoking related issue at all without being accused of being anti-smoker, and then you just leave in a huff. How is that helpful? I'm just asking for a bit of patience and mutual exchange of opinions without getting over-sensitive. That said- {{{{{{{{{{{smokers}}}}}}}}}}}}} cos you do have to take a lot of crap.

Sparky

First, I did not say anyone was anti smoker...

Second....I very rarely turn tail and run, especially when it concerns the PC crowd attacking smokers.

Third, you're right in that there IS a distinction between anti-smoking and anti-smoker. But honestly, the smoking topic is so charged that most of the time it's hard to seperate the two...Which really pisses off this smoker.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#23 sierraleone

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 09:21 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Jan 6 2009, 08:39 PM, said:

I'm with Balth on this one.

I don't think the quantities would be significant.

Even excluding people sensitive to such chemicals, I'd imagine it'd make a difference based on several factors.

Are you in an environment where smoking happens regularly? How do you interact with that environment? (As this article seemed to focus on the "think of the children" aspect, because, I imagine, they are often closer to these surfaces.)

If coming across a smoker in a non-smoking environment, how recently did they have a (or more) smoke(s) since they last cleaned? How enclosed is the environment? How close are you to the smoker? Are they wearing clean clothes, or where they in a rush that day and wearing yesterday's clothes? Or wearing outer/over clothes that don't get washed often? Or a purse/bag? (and with smokers having to smoke outside more their outer/over clothes probably get more fumes on the outside of them then they did in the past). And of course, how heavy of a smoker are they? Someone who smokes a cigarette every day or two probably isn't that much trouble. But one who smokes a pack or two a day, considering most people shower once/twice a day, is going to have considerably more smoke residue on their person/clothing.


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On the other hand, I think smokers generally, and in this thread, don't help themselves much with meaningless rhetoric and declaring everyone against them all the time. I know you're probably sick of stuff like this, and ya know? I would be pissed off too- I can understand it. I'm anti-smoking, but not anti-smoker, and I get turned off by anti-smoker stuff too. But it's like we can't talk about any smoking related issue at all without being accused of being anti-smoker, and then you just leave in a huff. How is that helpful? I'm just asking for a bit of patience and mutual exchange of opinions without getting over-sensitive. That said- {{{{{{{{{{{smokers}}}}}}}}}}}}} cos you do have to take a lot of crap.

Sparky

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Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
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#24 Enkephalen

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 11:08 PM

I am allergic to cigarettes/smoke.  If around an active smoker I will get a terrible migraine.  I am so sensitive that if a smoker comes too close to me and I smell the smoke on them I cannot breathe.   I grew up with smoking parents and it was sheer torture to go on a car trip with them.  My former husband was a chain smoker and I suffered terribly with migraines.  After we divorce, no more migraines.  

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I'd be curious to see if all those air freshners and candles and Glade gingerbread scents etc. etc. have any after-effects settling on carpets or furniture that could be toxic. I'm sensitive to that sort of thing.

I have parrots.  Smoking, air freshners, candles, perfumes, strongly scented hand lotions, pesticides, etc. are deadly to birds along with fumes given off by Teflon coated cookware.  The toxicity factor is quite high.

Edited by Enkephalen, 06 January 2009 - 11:08 PM.

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#25 Cheile

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 04:29 AM

View PostBalderdash, on Jan 6 2009, 12:22 PM, said:

Dude, you can't win this one.  We smokers are evil incarnate, we stink and we kill innocent people.  This is the only post I'm going to make in here and after that I'm not even going to open this thread.

P.S. I will say this though, it sure would be nice to see someone posting productive ways that smokers can quit instead of the f*ck*ng pile-on smokers posts that are the norm in here where we're supposed to be excellent to each other.  Now I'm out with my stinky self.

um the productive ways have already been invented.  support groups, online and off.  you can buy patches, gum, lozenges, etc.  you can go to your doctor and ask for Chantix.

so quit whining that we're "attacking" you and start looking into those ways if you are serious about kicking the habit.  or else invent a cigarette that only poisons the smoker and not everyone else around them.

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#26 Balderdash

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 09:05 AM

View PostSparkyCola, on Jan 6 2009, 06:39 PM, said:

On the other hand, I think smokers generally, and in this thread, don't help themselves much with meaningless rhetoric and declaring everyone against them all the time. I know you're probably sick of stuff like this, and ya know? I would be pissed off too- I can understand it. I'm anti-smoking, but not anti-smoker, and I get turned off by anti-smoker stuff too. But it's like we can't talk about any smoking related issue at all without being accused of being anti-smoker, and then you just leave in a huff. How is that helpful? I'm just asking for a bit of patience and mutual exchange of opinions without getting over-sensitive. That said- {{{{{{{{{{{smokers}}}}}}}}}}}}} cos you do have to take a lot of crap.

Sparky

Eh, I could honestly care less about a study on "third hand" smoke, I think it's ridiculous.  People with allergies such as myself avoid others who don't know how to dust properly or spray enough cologne to close up my throat and lungs for a week.

I'm not saying that smoking isn't anything but bad, for the people who smoke or the people around them.  But there are plenty of other things even more of a problem but belligerent anti-smokers will only go after the smoker and lay the blame for the worlds ills at the smokers feet.  And by all means talk about whatever smoking issues y'all want, I'll will just avoid them, like I should have done this one, my bad.

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#27 Broph

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 09:29 AM

View PostBalderdash, on Jan 7 2009, 02:05 PM, said:

Eh, I could honestly care less about a study on "third hand" smoke, I think it's ridiculous.

And this is exactly the problems. Smokers don't want to believe that there is a problem to them or to others due to their smoking. They want to ignore studies/problems/warnings. They don't want to be told that what they're doing is harmful.

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People with allergies such as myself avoid others who don't know how to dust properly or spray enough cologne to close up my throat and lungs for a week.

And how do children avoid their parents or their homes?

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But there are plenty of other things even more of a problem but belligerent anti-smokers will only go after the smoker and lay the blame for the worlds ills at the smokers feet.

Just because there are other problems doesn't mean that smoking shouldn't/can't be addressed.

Quote

And by all means talk about whatever smoking issues y'all want, I'll will just avoid them

I do have to point out here that you're proving my point.

#28 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 11:54 AM

View PostCheile, on Jan 7 2009, 04:29 AM, said:

um the productive ways have already been invented.  support groups, online and off.  you can buy patches, gum, lozenges, etc.  you can go to your doctor and ask for Chantix.

so quit whining that we're "attacking" you and start looking into those ways if you are serious about kicking the habit.  or else invent a cigarette that only poisons the smoker and not everyone else around them.


And if a smoker decides they don't want to quit? Who the HELL are YOU to tell them they must!?

And guess what, I did try the chantix just to see if it worked...guess what...the sh*t didn't work for me. But perhaps you have other drugs you'd like to medicate or dope up the smokers with?

God, judgemental non smokers really piss me off.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#29 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 12:03 PM

View PostBroph, on Jan 7 2009, 09:29 AM, said:

And this is exactly the problems. Smokers don't want to believe that there is a problem to them or to others due to their smoking. They want to ignore studies/problems/warnings. They don't want to be told that what they're doing is harmful.


Ah, this is more like it...Me and Broph disagreeing again...good times...LOL.

I can't speak for other smokers, and IMO...not enough smokers speak up for themselves...But this smoker KNOWS smoking is bad. And guess what, it is something that I enjoy and it is legal. But you have the fanatical anti-smokER crowd...who are unable to seperate anti-smoking from anti-smoker...and just portray all smokers as the Devil himself, which just pisses off smokers.

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And how do children avoid their parents or their homes?

Hey the kids don't like it, there is always the street, foster care, ect....

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Just because there are other problems doesn't mean that smoking shouldn't/can't be addressed.

I know...so does NYC, which has recently decided to target fat people....JUST LIKE I SAID THEY WOULD IN PREVIOUS THREADS...and in those threads I was told I was using strawman arguments, being an alarmist...Well guess what! Looks like I was right. And give NYC time, before too long they'll come out with a medical study that says something along the lines of: "Sweat from a fat person can mutate you DNA and make you fat." and then they'll try to quarantine all the fat people...for their own good of course.

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I do have to point out here that you're proving my point.


Well some smokers just get tired of fighting people who try and make them into second class citizens...Me, I don't cut and run...I love a good fight.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#30 enTranced

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 12:05 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Jan 7 2009, 01:39 AM, said:

I'm with Balth on this one.

I don't think the quantities would be significant.

That people think "toxic chemicals = duh, obviously bad" is completely meaningless, to me. People used to think radiation was more dangerous than it is - actually, in small quantities it's completely harmless- no where near as bad as people expected it to be. People encounter radiation very frequently. Another example is cyanide. A lethal chemical - but humans can process small quantities of cyanide- and every time you eat an apple pip that's exactly what your body does, as pips contain cyanide.

Thank you! I'm now free of my asthma because of your profound logic.

Or what Wesley Snipes said in the first Blade movie:

"Some mother*BLEEP* are always trying to ice skate uphill.

enTranced

Edited by enTranced, 07 January 2009 - 12:05 PM.

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#31 BklnScott

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 12:29 PM

View PostDiabolic Mage, on Jan 7 2009, 11:54 AM, said:

View PostCheile, on Jan 7 2009, 04:29 AM, said:

um the productive ways have already been invented.  support groups, online and off.  you can buy patches, gum, lozenges, etc.  you can go to your doctor and ask for Chantix.

so quit whining that we're "attacking" you and start looking into those ways if you are serious about kicking the habit.  or else invent a cigarette that only poisons the smoker and not everyone else around them.


And if a smoker decides they don't want to quit? Who the HELL are YOU to tell them they must!?

The person who tells a smoker they "must" quit is usually a) their doctor or b) their spouse.  

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And guess what, I did try the chantix just to see if it worked...guess what...the sh*t didn't work for me. But perhaps you have other drugs you'd like to medicate or dope up the smokers with?

Chantix is just a horrible drug, but the gum does work.  Your lungs and heart will start to pink up, that's for sure, and you'll still be getting your fix.  Worth considering if you're thinking of quitting.  

BTW, you're way too smart to start in on the whole anti-science/the doctors lie thing, by the way.  It's almost as though you're saying you don't believe smoking kills.  That's not what you're saying, right?

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#32 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 12:36 PM

View PostBklnScott, on Jan 7 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

BTW, you're way too smart to start in on the whole anti-science/the doctors lie thing, by the way.  It's almost as though you're saying you don't believe smoking kills.  That's not what you're saying, right?

No that's not what I'm saying...I don't expect some medical study to come along and suddenly suggest that smoking is actually good for you...like they did in that Woody Allen movie "Sleeper"....Though it would be nice, just to see the stunned expression on the fanatical anti smokers.

As for the anti science/dotors...Someone had asked if I thought the doc who came up with this doomsday senario called third smoke was lying. I replied, No I didn't think he was lying...but medical studies can be twisted to say what the person performing it wants.

And let's face facts...medical studies have said one thing...then a couple years later another one comes along and says the exact opposite. For example, one study said a certain vitamin helped lower the risk of colon cancer, or something like that...Couple years later another one came out and said that the vitamin really didn't lower the risks of that cancer. And so it goes with the medical studies community, round and round.

So while I don't think the guy was lying...I don't think medical studies are carved in stone handed down from GOD himself either.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#33 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 12:38 PM

View PostenTranced, on Jan 7 2009, 12:05 PM, said:

Or what Wesley Snipes said in the first Blade movie:

"Some mother*BLEEP* are always trying to ice skate uphill.

enTranced

Funny you should bring Snipes up...I can think of another movie, a movie where the PC crowd would love for us to be...Demolition Man. Let the PC crowd get their way and we will all be walking around singing commerical jingles and wishing everyone to Be Well.

Edited by Diabolic Mage, 07 January 2009 - 12:38 PM.

"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#34 SparkyCola

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 12:48 PM

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Thank you! I'm now free of my asthma because of your profound logic.

Good- cos I'm not getting anything at all from your profound sarcasm :eh:

I have asthma too - not that that really matters, frankly. Not sure what else I can say since you didn't actually make any argument here whatsoever :eh:

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#35 enTranced

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:05 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Jan 7 2009, 05:48 PM, said:

Quote

Thank you! I'm now free of my asthma because of your profound logic.

Good- cos I'm not getting anything at all from your profound sarcasm :eh:

I have asthma too - not that that really matters, frankly. Not sure what else I can say since you didn't actually make any argument here whatsoever :eh:

Sparky

Why would I need to? You just explained how my asthma is a figment of my imagination.

I'm sure my Doctor would be fascinated by your diagnosis.

Sparky you are WAY out of your league on this one.

Quote

People used to think radiation was more dangerous than it is - actually, in small quantities it's completely harmless- no where near as bad as people expected it to be.

Oy.

Chain smoker smokes around 3 young children who all develop breathing problems. nah......no link there. Tell me about how my lungs are going to magically heal again because I love the cyanide part.

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#36 SparkyCola

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:11 PM

Sorry for skipping you sierra- I'll get to your post now.

Quote

Even excluding people sensitive to such chemicals, I'd imagine it'd make a difference based on several factors.

Just to note, briefly - you're absolutely right to discount people sensitive to such chemicals. Dust makes me cough but people who don't dust properly never get any crap - nor do people who put nuts in their food because lots of people are allergic to them. Having a sensitivity doesn't count- lots of people are sensitive to lots of things, it doesn't enter the discussion in a rational way, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote

Are you in an environment where smoking happens regularly? How do you interact with that environment? (As this article seemed to focus on the "think of the children" aspect, because, I imagine, they are often closer to these surfaces.)

Ah- now, don't get me wrong here. I've long been an advocate of encouraging parents to stop smoking, and even going so far as making it a law to not smoke inside homes where there are children. They can still go outside or whatever, though, and I think the amount that would stick to clothing really would be insignificant to harm a kid from hugging them or whatever.

Quote

If coming across a smoker in a non-smoking environment, how recently did they have a (or more) smoke(s) since they last cleaned? How enclosed is the environment? How close are you to the smoker? Are they wearing clean clothes, or where they in a rush that day and wearing yesterday's clothes? Or wearing outer/over clothes that don't get washed often? Or a purse/bag? (and with smokers having to smoke outside more their outer/over clothes probably get more fumes on the outside of them then they did in the past). And of course, how heavy of a smoker are they? Someone who smokes a cigarette every day or two probably isn't that much trouble. But one who smokes a pack or two a day, considering most people shower once/twice a day, is going to have considerably more smoke residue on their person/clothing.

Yes, there certainly are a lot of variables to consider, aren't there? What concerns me I think is the obvious bias and sensationalism presented in news articles  - news sources are used to being like that over smoking type topics- and I'm registering my scepticism. "Toxins" and "poisons" that "cling" to things-  I mean, I just think people can get hysterical about this kind of thing and I don't necessarily buy into it - I've probably ingested a huge amount of harmful things over the course of my life and not blinked. It's the idea of invisible poisons that people are scared of - and it plays into that fear, but it's not necessarily scientifically sound- I'm just saying I'd need a bit more convincing. I think that if someone were in a house with all that crap in it - maybe. My great-grandfather was a chain smoker and his place when they cleared it out: :barf:  . But- in terms of people who come in from outside having had a cigarette, I'm not going to be worried about anything I get from their clothes. I hope that clarifies a bit.

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#37 SparkyCola

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:12 PM

Quote

Why would I need to? You just explained how my asthma is a figment of my imagination.

I'm sure my Doctor would be fascinated by your diagnosis.

Sparky you are WAY out of your league on this one.

What the heck are you talking about? :eh:

Sparky
Able to entertain a thought without taking it home to meet the parents

#38 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:14 PM

Metals?
What metals are found in the smoke of cigarettes?

I smoke the very occassional rum soaked cigar, and that somewhat startles me.

I'm cold Howard.jpg


#39 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:17 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Jan 7 2009, 01:12 PM, said:

Quote

Why would I need to? You just explained how my asthma is a figment of my imagination.

I'm sure my Doctor would be fascinated by your diagnosis.

Sparky you are WAY out of your league on this one.

What the heck are you talking about? :eh:

Sparky

He seems to be saying that since he has Asthma...First it must be the evil smokers' fault, and second: everyone must cater to people who have asthma...and third: anyone who disagrees with him is on the side of the evil smokers.

Nevermind all the toxins released by car exhaust, hair spray, ect...nope it's all the evil smokers fault.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#40 enTranced

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:21 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Jan 7 2009, 06:12 PM, said:

Quote

Why would I need to? You just explained how my asthma is a figment of my imagination.

I'm sure my Doctor would be fascinated by your diagnosis.

Sparky you are WAY out of your league on this one.

What the heck are you talking about? :eh:

Sparky

Ok, you and I have played this game before. I take issue with a post of yours you play stupid (and I don't for an instant buy it, I know you are smart) and round and round we go.

Lets leave it at this:

1) You feel my asthma is somehow not related to my father smoking around me for years. and that we will all become somehow immune to the effects of smoking.

2) While I think you are very, very wrong.

Honesty, I expect your argument from a smoker. I tried along with my bother and sister for not years but DECADES to get my father to stop smoking. It took al those years and one very near fatal experience for my father to finally, FINALLY get the message.

But before that he would offer up some crazy proof that smoking is fine. We knew it was garbage and he was just playing games with himself and he knew also. Which is why I am surprised by your statement that you in fact don't smoke. I'm surprised because you sound like you are on the pack a day train....

Anyway, I better duck out of this thread now because I don't want to get cool it's thrown at this thread and smoking is a very personal matter for me.

enTranced
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