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A New Cigarette Hazard: ‘Third-Hand Smoke’

Public Health Smoking 2009 3rd hand smoke

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#41 enTranced

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:24 PM

View PostDiabolic Mage, on Jan 7 2009, 06:17 PM, said:

He seems to be saying that since he has Asthma...First it must be the evil smokers' fault, and second: everyone must cater to people who have asthma...and third: anyone who disagrees with him is on the side of the evil smokers.

Nevermind all the toxins released by car exhaust, hair spray, ect...nope it's all the evil smokers fault.

There we go. :)

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#42 FlatlandDan

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:30 PM

My mother in law smokes in her living room and when I go to visit the ambient smell dives me insane, but I would never dream of insulting her by saying that.  I much prefer inviting her to our place or meeting somewhere.

I'm not entirely sure where we lost sight of the fact that smokers are human beings.  Some can quit and other can't.   We've put down enough rules that say that in public places people can't smoke.  The occasional waft while you're walking down the street can be annoying, but it's an annoyance and nothing more.  

Besides, it's a known fact that 100% of non-smokers die.
My candle burns at both its ends;
It will not last the night;
But oh, my foes, and oh, my friends --
It gives a lovely light."
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#43 SparkyCola

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:31 PM

Quote

You feel my asthma is somehow not related to my father smoking around me for years. and that we will all become somehow immune to the effects of smoking.

This is what I have difficulty understanding - I never said anything, even remotely like this. I mean, not even SLIGHTLY like this.

Perhaps it would help if I clarify my position a bit more, eT. In this thread- I'm talking about third hand smoke. In the past I've been vocal in my objections to second hand smoke, and pro-ban for smoking in public places. As mentioned in this thread, I'd also be for a ban on people smoking in homes where there are children. So in general, I'm fairly anti-smoking. But when it comes to third hand smoke, I'm just registering my scepticism that smoke particles clinging to clothing and walls can do much damage, unless you're in exceptional circumstances of say, being a cleaner in a home where someone smokes. I just don't understand where you're getting a lot of your comments from though. I never said anything about the cause of your asthma, or about your upbringing in a smoking environment. I never expressed scepticism about the harmful effects of smoking or second hand smoke. I see a lot of strawman going on here and I just don't understand where you're getting it from.

I'm not playing stupid - I just genuinely don't understand.

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#44 Broph

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:58 PM

View PostNittany Lioness, on Jan 7 2009, 06:14 PM, said:

Metals?
What metals are found in the smoke of cigarettes?


Quote

Cadmium is a toxic heavy metal that occurs in nature. Cadmium is also produced as a by-product of the process of smelting (heating and melting ores to extract metals). Cadmium is present in low levels in food, and in high levels in cigarette smoke.

http://quitsmoking.a...e/p/cadmium.htm

#45 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 02:46 PM

View PostenTranced, on Jan 7 2009, 01:24 PM, said:

There we go. :)

enTranced

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The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#46 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 02:53 PM

For the record....since we've seem to have strayed from the original point of this topic...which is this alledged doomsday senario of third hand smoke....

I never said second hand smoke wasn't harmful. I never said nicotine doesn't get on walls, or clothes, I never said anything like that. I just don't buy this doomsday senario of third hand smoke.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#47 enTranced

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 03:20 PM

View PostFlatlandDan, on Jan 7 2009, 06:30 PM, said:

My mother in law smokes in her living room and when I go to visit the ambient smell dives me insane, but I would never dream of insulting her by saying that.  I much prefer inviting her to our place or meeting somewhere.

I'm not entirely sure where we lost sight of the fact that smokers are human beings.  Some can quit and other can't.   We've put down enough rules that say that in public places people can't smoke.  The occasional waft while you're walking down the street can be annoying, but it's an annoyance and nothing more.  

Besides, it's a known fact that 100% of non-smokers die.

Ok,  needed to sneak back in here to answer this.

Yes, of course smokers are human beings. I love my father and while he was still smoking I loved him. I enjoy the company of my smoking friend I mentioned above.

That said, smoking is bad for you, for all of us. I ask my friend to open the window when I visit. Before my father stopped smoking I asked him to not smoke near my son.

This is not me being nasty to smokers or showing them disrespect, this is me being aware of the dangers of smoke inhalation.

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#48 BklnScott

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 03:36 PM

View PostDiabolic Mage, on Jan 7 2009, 02:53 PM, said:

For the record....since we've seem to have strayed from the original point of this topic...which is this alledged doomsday senario of third hand smoke....

I never said second hand smoke wasn't harmful. I never said nicotine doesn't get on walls, or clothes, I never said anything like that. I just don't buy this doomsday senario of third hand smoke.

If you acknowledge that first- and second-hand smoke are harmful, then I don't understand why you would dismiss out of hand the harmfullness of the residue that gets caked on walls and such.  It's the same stuff, after all, whether it's wafting through the air as smoke or raining down from a light fixture as dust.

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#49 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 03:42 PM

View PostenTranced, on Jan 7 2009, 03:20 PM, said:

That said, smoking is bad for you, for all of us. I ask my friend to open the window when I visit. Before my father stopped smoking I asked him to not smoke near my son.

This is not me being nasty to smokers or showing them disrespect, this is me being aware of the dangers of smoke inhalation.

enTranced


Well on that we can agree...Smoking IS bad for you. And I don't think asking a smoker not to smoke around someone is disrespectful. Someone DEMANDING it though is a different ballgame entirely.

For example: I have a Aunt, who grew up with both parents smoking....I'm not sure if she is allergic to it or not, but I know it bothers her being around smoking. Hence, when I'm around her I don't smoke. I don't smoke in her house, I go out to my car. And if she happens to be in the car, I just do not smoke. She has never, not once, said I couldn't smoke...I just don't do it when around her.

I also have two nieces, one of whom I'm Godfather to. I don't smoke around them either. And if the kids are in the car...Sucks to be me cause I will not smoke around them.

But my Grandfather had a habit of trying to order me not to smoke...Let's just say things got ugly fast when around him.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#50 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 05:47 PM

Thank you Broph.

This summer I went to a Wine and Beer Tasting fest and there was some positively fantastic flavored cigars there, sold as small size ... cigarillos or whatever (slightly bigger than standard cigarette) - I'm talking Almond-Arabica-Cocoa, and Cognac-Honey-Vanilla.  I've smoked about 5 of the 20 I bought.  I guess I average 10 a year.  Danger?  I guess anything is putting your finger on the scale.  But they're sooooo smooooth ...

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#51 Broph

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 05:51 PM

Cigarettes are generally worse than cigars because of what they add to cigarettes. Most cigars are just rolled tobacco, though then again, a lot of people don't smoke them with filters, so it's a tradeoff.

#52 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 05:53 PM

So my cigars wouldn't have the Cadmium?

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#53 Broph

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 06:44 PM

Quote

Cigar smoking is neither safer than cigarettes nor a passing fad, according to "Cigars: Health Effects and Trends," a new monograph published by the National Cancer Institute (NCI).

The researchers noted that cigar smoking causes serious health risks for daily cigar smokers. Much of the risk relates to the amount of exposure to tobacco smoke (frequency of smoking and pattern of inhalation). Smokers who consume one or more cigars per day and do not inhale have a risk for oral cancer that is 7 times greater than that for nonsmokers; risk for laryngeal cancer is 10 times greater. When people smoke five or more cigars per day with at least moderate inhalation, their risk for lung cancer is similar to that for people who smoke a pack of cigarettes per day. Regular cigar smokers who inhale and smoke more than three cigars per day also have an increased risk for coronary heart disease and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Risks for oral, laryngeal, and esophageal cancer are similar to those for cigarette smokers. Data also suggest that cigar smokers may be at higher risk for aortic aneurysm and that cigar smoking may be associated with cancer of the pancreas. Mortality risks were highest for cancer of the larynx.

Tobacco smoke contains more than 4000 compounds-including toxic agents and carcinogens-but these compounds are present in different amounts in cigarettes and cigars. For example, a large cigar emits up to 20 times more ammonia, up to 10 times more cadmium, and up to 90 times more tobacco-specific carcinogenic nitrosamines than a cigarette does. Although cigars generate slightly smaller amounts of suspended particulate matter than cigarettes, they also generate larger amounts of carbon monoxide. In addition, bioassays in animals show that tar in cigar smoke is more carcinogenic than that in cigarette smoke.

The large amounts of these substances emitted by cigars also create concern about second-hand cigar smoke. Carbon monoxide levels at indoor cigar events have been found to be similar to those of a crowded Los Angeles freeway. Smoke from a single cigar burned at home can expose nonsmokers to a health risk for as long as 5 hours because of lingering smoke.

http://www.annals.or.../full/129/2/169

#54 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 11:31 PM

View PostBklnScott, on Jan 7 2009, 03:36 PM, said:

If you acknowledge that first- and second-hand smoke are harmful, then I don't understand why you would dismiss out of hand the harmfullness of the residue that gets caked on walls and such.  It's the same stuff, after all, whether it's wafting through the air as smoke or raining down from a light fixture as dust.

Because this newly discovered doomsday senario this doc is pushing, first: Isn't new. As anyone who has smoked or been around smokers knows. Second: Technically speaking it isn't even smoke. Third: I've yet to see someone die from touching a wall that had nicotine build up on it.

That's why I'm dismissing this doc's "Medical study".
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#55 Nonny

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 11:54 PM

View PostBalthamos, on Jan 6 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

View PostNonny, on Jan 6 2009, 07:25 PM, said:

View PostBalthamos, on Jan 6 2009, 10:00 AM, said:

Until there are multiple studies proving that this has any significant health effects I, a none smoker who supports the smoking ban, will quite happily disregard this and I would urge everyone else to do the same. There may be dangerous chemicals clinging to the clothes of a smoker but the quantities will be well below any toxic limits.
The quantities are significant enough for someone like me, elderly with respiratory impairment, to gag when I smell smoke or stale smoke in a room, on someone's clothes or breath.

While that's unfortunate Nonny it's not fair to expect people to stop smoking entirely for the few who are sensitive to second hand smoke. You have the freedom to not associate with people who don't smoke and avoid areas where people have been smoking. There are very few public places (In England, and many states in America) where such a build up of smoke won't happen because of smoking bans. You're free not to visit people's houses when they smoke if it causes you problems. I also wonder how often you are affected by a nearby smoker and how much he has to smoke for it to affect you when you pass him or her by in a supermarket.
I've spent much of my life attempting to avoid smokers, but since the nature of smoke is to expand, it's impossible.  What's not fair is for smokers to not only assume that all the air belongs to them, but that it's inexcusable for nonsmokers to gag at their disgusting smoke stench.  And it sucks out loud that smoking parents can do whatever they want to their innocent children; I didn't have the freedom to not associate with smokers when I was a child.  

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Too bad my father was never able to stop. He sure tried. Exposure to his smoking is what caused my lifetime of respiratory problems. And my mom, a lifelong nonsmoker like myself, was exposed to his smoke, her friends' smoke, their husbands' smoke, her second and third husbands' smoke and all the stuff deposited in all the rooms they lived and smoked in. She died of lung cancer last summer.

I'm not quite sure how this is relevant considering we're discussing so called "third hand" not second hand. I'm assuming your father and your mother's husbands smoked around her or you? Which would be second hand smoke.
I'm discussing first, second and third hand smoke, in the context of this new information.  The more we learn about smoking, the more we discover what many of us have suspected all along: that smoke harms all of us, not just the willing participants.
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#56 Nonny

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 11:57 PM

View PostenTranced, on Jan 6 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

As someone who has suffered from asthma and allergies his whole life I can only barely muster a half-way duh for this news.

My father was a heavy duty smoker and myself and my two siblings all suffer from various breathing issues. Fortunetly we are all being well treated by medication but without my two Qvar puffs each day I am screwed.

I have two smoker friends and if I hang out with them in their apartment I need to take along my emergency inhaler and even then sit by a open window, even if they are not currently smoking.  If my son is with me I make sure he is near that window also.

It's real and it is not a laughing matter.

enTranced
{{{{{{{{{{{enTranced and son}}}}}}}}}}}
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#57 Nonny

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:05 AM

Quote

Quote

And how do children avoid their parents or their homes?

Hey the kids don't like it, there is always the street, foster care, ect....
This reply to that question is the single most disgusting thing I've ever read at this site.

Edited by Nonny, 08 January 2009 - 12:15 AM.

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#58 Nonny

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:09 AM

View PostFlatlandDan, on Jan 7 2009, 10:30 AM, said:

Besides, it's a known fact that 100% of non-smokers die.
Have you ever watched someone die of lung cancer?  My nonsmoking mother did not deserve it.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#59 Cheile

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 02:49 AM

View PostNonny, on Jan 7 2009, 09:05 PM, said:

Quote

Quote

And how do children avoid their parents or their homes?

Hey the kids don't like it, there is always the street, foster care, ect....
This reply to that question is the single most disgusting thing I've ever read at this site.

i agree...that's absolutely out of line.  parents have no right to poison their children.

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#60 sierraleone

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 11:53 AM

View PostDiabolic Mage, on Jan 7 2009, 03:42 PM, said:

Well on that we can agree...Smoking IS bad for you. And I don't think asking a smoker not to smoke around someone is disrespectful. Someone DEMANDING it though is a different ballgame entirely.

For example: I have a Aunt, who grew up with both parents smoking....I'm not sure if she is allergic to it or not, but I know it bothers her being around smoking. Hence, when I'm around her I don't smoke. I don't smoke in her house, I go out to my car. And if she happens to be in the car, I just do not smoke. She has never, not once, said I couldn't smoke...I just don't do it when around her.

I also have two nieces, one of whom I'm Godfather to. I don't smoke around them either. And if the kids are in the car...Sucks to be me cause I will not smoke around them.

But my Grandfather had a habit of trying to order me not to smoke...Let's just say things got ugly fast when around him.

So, ignoring the kids for a moment, only meek people like your aunt (that you've somehow learned that smoke bothers her and it seems she doesn't bring it up) gets the honour/privileged of your non-smoking presence? Thats what always confused me about you in our 2nd hand smoke threads (and now 3rd hand ;) ). You describe people who won't say anything, who get your respect, and those that 'order you' around. It makes me wonder, are these people really all ordering you, or is there some grey middle you either don't admit to or don't see?

How did you learn it bothered your aunt? It seems she didn't outright ask you to stop smoking. There could be lots of people who meet who are bothered by smoking but don't speak up, maybe you should not smoke unless other smokers are lit up, just in case ;)

How'd you react if enTrance was your off-line friend, and asked you if you could crack a window before he and his son visits, and maybe even cease smoking while they was there? (I know he said he asked his smoking friends the former, not sure about the latter, but he did ask his father not to smoke around his son).
If you said you wouldn't, it was the middle of winter, or it was your house, or what difference did it make with all the third hand smoke ;) would you be offended if he decided that he couldn't come over, and that if you guys were to meet in person and hang out it would have to be either at his own house where no smoking was allowed, or in some neutral non-smoking place? Does that seem like ordering, since he has stated he wouldn't come over without those concessions on your part? Would it make a difference if he or the kid was allergic and/or had asthma?

Where is the middle gray ground, for you, on this issue LOTS? I could see you having an issue with a passive aggressive approach too, someone complaining (and not too subtly ;) ) about how s/he doesn't like smoke fumes or they get headaches or something but not asking you outright directly either. If someone asks you to kindly but out, and you want to finish your smoke you just started (say they just don't like the smell, no allergy or lung issues and its neutral place, not either's 'territory') who should kindly leave?

Edited by sierraleone, 08 January 2009 - 11:54 AM.

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Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
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Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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