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PA Pledge Case

Pennsylvania Pledge of Allegiance 2003

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 07:14 AM

http://www.washtimes...84352-6097r.htm

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PHILADELPHIA, July 16 (UPI) -- Pennsylvania's attempt to require students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance every morning has been struck down by a federal judge.

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The bill sponsor, state Rep. Allan Egolf, R-Harrisburg, had included a provision that let students choose not to recite the pledge but required schools to notify parents if students kept mum.

How utterly pathetic. I'm glad the law is gone.

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 17 July 2003 - 07:36 AM.

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#2 Bad Wolf

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 07:31 AM

Geez.

We've got kids toting GUNS in school and this law wanted parents to be called because their kids refused to say the pledge????

:wacko:
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#3 Kosh

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 08:16 AM

Mr. Egolf doesn't understand the Pledge himself.
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#4 Nikcara

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 08:26 AM

Well, here's my take on it

the pledge should not be required, because pledgings you alliance with anything should be a free choice.  If you force someone to recite it, it loses its value and turns into a meaningless string of words, which is worse then not saying it at all, IMO.

I'm still glad my highschool rarely tried to make us recite it and didn't get all bent out of shape if we kept quiet as long as we stayed respectful
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#5 Eclipse

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 08:32 AM

"Hello  ... Mr. Egolf?"

"Yes"

"This is the principle at the high school ... ah ... your son has been refusing to say the Pledge Of Allegence."

"Damn ... I'll have to amend that bill ... thanks!"
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#6 Uncle Sid

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 12:30 PM

Well, I don't think we should be having loyalty tests like that in school.  On the other hand, I think it's sad that kids will not say it.  I mean, other than the "under God" part, do they have a particular problem with being loyal citizens of an indivisible republic that has liberty and justice for all?  It's this sort of behavior that tends to get the wrong sorts of minds thinking "protester" = "traitor".  Or frequently in my mind, "protester" = "fool".
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey

#7 AnneZo

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 08:17 AM

I don't see what that "under God" phrase, which wasn't added until well into the 20th century, isn't just removed. That's really the basis of most complaints around the Pledge.  Anyhow, those two words ruin the scansion of the verse.

Aside from that, I do object to ritualized indoctrination.  Sounds rather Stalinist.

Maybe if a little more citizenship were taught in schools (right along with the all-important "question authority" part), we wouldn't need artifical symbols of "loyalty" like mindlessly mouthing a Pledge of Allegiance?

#8 Norville

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 09:55 AM

Something's been wandering through my mind lately that I've wanted to comment on, but haven't quite found the right place to comment on it... may as well be here.

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Well, I don't think we should be having loyalty tests like that in school. On the other hand, I think it's sad that kids will not say it. I mean, other than the "under God" part, do they have a particular problem with being loyal citizens of an indivisible republic that has liberty and justice for all? It's this sort of behavior that tends to get the wrong sorts of minds thinking "protester" = "traitor". Or frequently in my mind, "protester" = "fool".

Back in the '80s, I knew a lot of born-again Christians, and they tended to believe that nationalism/patriotism was a distraction (the need for my own nationalism was called into question, certainly), that the only loyalty that counted was for God's Kingdom. The world just didn't matter that much; one was on the outside looking in. I'm amused by how opinions have changed since then, because now, "real" religious people believe that any questioning of the US is betrayal of God. Whatever...
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#9 Nick

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 02:11 PM

I refused to say the pledge after about the 6th grade--I got some flack for it, but I explained it very clearly to teachers, not all of them agreed, but they really had no place to prohibit me from sitting quietly.  When I learned the pledge, I was in Kindergarden and it's a pure-wrote memorization thing, none of us wee kids knew what we were saying or what it meant, as most thought it ended " . . . invisible with liverty and justice for all."

I refused to say it not out of disloyalty or anything like that, I simply felt that the coerced recital of it cheapened it and went against the Pledge's meaning and purpose.

-Nick

#10 Uncle Sid

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 02:45 PM

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Maybe if a little more citizenship were taught in schools (right along with the all-important "question authority" part), we wouldn't need artifical symbols of "loyalty" like mindlessly mouthing a Pledge of Allegiance?

Sounds sort of self-defeating....  After all, you're you're saying that you want the authorities to teach to you question authority.  So if they question it, wouldn't that also mean that they need to question why they are questioning authority?  

It always seemed funny to me that if you put bumper stickers saying:

Obey.

and

Question Authority.

together, you quickly realize that both are telling you what to do.
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey

#11 Julie

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 02:55 PM

Norville, on Jul 20 2003, 06:48 PM, said:

...now, "real" religious people believe that any questioning of the US is betrayal of God.
Just out of curiousity, did you read my comment in Drew's "quagmire" thread?

#12 the 'Hawk

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 03:33 PM

AnneZo, on Jul 20 2003, 05:10 PM, said:

Maybe if a little more citizenship were taught in schools (right along with the all-important "question authority" part), we wouldn't need artifical symbols of "loyalty" like mindlessly mouthing a Pledge of Allegiance?
Here's my problem --as both a schoolteacher-to-be and a citizen who questions authority.

How do you suggest we teach citizenship?

I mean, you've got a single, central authority figure (the teacher) drill-and-killing facts into these kids' heads. Your average teacher tends to rely on discipline more than common respect. And so it's really hard to teach kids to respect only legitimate authority dependent on a voluntary social contract, and how awful the government is for not allowing the process of democracy to truly occur..... then turn around and expect them to dress appropriately, do their homework, sit and be quiet, and so on.

I had a prof very recently refer to schools as "citizen factories". As furious as it made me to hear that term--- it's true. We don't teach kids to think critically. The ones who do think critically get suicidal when they realize how powerless they truly are in society. (I know I did, among other reasons for being suicidal.) We can't teach them to question authority in a system based on authority. Teachers can only demonstrate to them that they can ask questions in a pointed yet respectful manner.

Because teachers themselves have to obey. Teachers have to follow the curriculum and teach what's expected --and that includes acquiescence to authority-- or they lose their jobs. It's a basic reality of the job in most districts, or so I am told.

Artificial symbols of loyalty are going to be necessary so long as the loyalty itself is based on an artificial social contract. Symbols are necessary in order to ensure contractual participation, kind of in the same way religious talismans inspire devotion. Symbology in a social setting is sometimes more important than anything else in the setting-- that's why the judge is elevated in a courtroom, that's why policemen wear uniforms. Expecting kids to conform in a classroom is the same as expecting them to conform anywhere else. That's the nature of citizenship. Yes, civil disobedience to injustice is important. But so is civic value and civil obedience to the parts that aren't so clear-cut.

:cool:
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#13 Julie

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 03:52 PM

the'Hawk, on Jul 21 2003, 12:26 AM, said:

The ones who do think critically get suicidal when they realize how powerless they truly are in society
Hey now... I thought critically in school-- at least, I'd like to believe I did-- and I wasn't suicidal.  

#14 the 'Hawk

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 04:18 PM

Julie, on Jul 21 2003, 12:45 AM, said:

Hey now... I thought critically in school-- at least, I'd like to believe I did-- and I wasn't suicidal. 
Maybe it's just me.

*shrug*

:cool:
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#15 tennyson

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 04:30 PM

I think it's just you. In school I was more concerned about the sea of noncritcal thinkers around me that didn't even care to look at the material at all. I kid you not in my junior year of high school my American history teacher would just leave us all and go somewhere after giving us an assignment and it always seemed like I was the only one who actually did it. It may not have been great learning and nothing like the conditions in my good teachers classes but it was more thjan the people around me got.
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#16 Kosh

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Posted 22 July 2003 - 06:07 AM

Quote

do they have a particular problem with being loyal citizens of an indivisible republic that has liberty and justice for all? It's this sort of behavior that tends to get the wrong sorts of minds thinking "protester" = "traitor". Or frequently in my mind, "protester" = "fool".



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I do object to ritualized indoctrination. Sounds rather Stalinist.

Or communist.
Can't Touch This!!



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