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Third Hand Smoke a Sham?

Health 3rd hand smoke sham? 2009

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#1 Mary Rose

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 11:06 PM

http://www.iht.com/a...nion/edbeam.php


You mean people would actually make things up in support of a political agenda.  No!!!!   I'm shocked. ;)

Note I have no opinion on the Gulf War thing at the end of the article.  But the third hand smoke thing always smelled like bull sh*t to me.  Pardon the pun. :lol:

I'm no fan of smoking but the backlash against smokers is just going too far in my opinion.  You're not an evil person if you smoke and it's far from child abuse.
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#2 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 02:01 AM

So it turns out that there was no proof behind the bogus "third hand smoke"....interesting. very interesting.

Didn't we have a thread here in OT about this not too long ago, and some here were all over this third hand smoke?

*looks for those who were all for third hand smoke and doesn't see them now*
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#3 Kosh

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:05 AM

It is an opinion piece, with no facts either way.
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#4 BklnScott

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:32 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on Mar 16 2009, 03:01 AM, said:

So it turns out that there was no proof behind the bogus "third hand smoke"....interesting. very interesting.

No, it turns out that no one read the article in Pediatrics in the first place, so now that new details about it emerge, people feel justified in going, "a-ha!  See?!"

Um...  see what?  That you didn't read the article in the first place?  Yes, I see that.

Let's bottom line it: these chemicals are dangerous.  They're dangerous when you inhale them.  They remain dangerous when you exhale them.  And they're dangerous when they settle as stinky toxic dust on everything you own.  They are particularly dangerous to children.

None of this should be regarded as controversial in any way.  That they are dangerous is not in question, so to say it's not been "proved" in the Pediatrics article is asinine.  It's been proved long since.

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#5 scherzo

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:12 AM

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None of this should be regarded as controversial in any way. That they are dangerous is not in question, so to say it's not been "proved" in the Pediatrics article is asinine. It's been proved long since.
What article did you read exactly? The entire point here is the danger of so called "third-hand smoke" HASN'T been proven at all, as of March 13, 2009. Simply repeating the original shaky science isn't really an argument at all here. And how such a thing could have been definitely "proven" in the relatively short period of time since Winickoff’s initial study is beyond me.
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#6 BklnScott

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:15 AM

It's been known since the 1950s that the content of cigarette smoke is harmful, so explain why it would have to be proved that the content of the dust that cakes itself on walls and coats, etc, is harmful?  It's the same stuff.  It's just no longer airborn.

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#7 Paul

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:35 AM

Okay guys. Let's make a quick test.
Get out a clean shirt. Then be around a smoker for a day and stand next to him when he smokes.
At the next day, you will still be able to smell smoke from it and anyone wearing it will still be exposed to residual nicotine etc.

That is what third-hand smoke is. And it is absolutely real.
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#8 Godeskian

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:54 AM

I think a valid question is if the particles remain toxic at that point or more specifically, if they can threaten ones health in that condition. To use your example Paul, you can rub fat or chocolate or rum into a t-shirt too and it will still smell of that a day later, however it doesn't mean that you will suffer any negative effects from the smell of fat, chocolate or rum.

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#9 Paul

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:57 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Mar 16 2009, 03:54 PM, said:

I think a valid question is if the particles remain toxic at that point or more specifically, if they can threaten ones health in that condition. To use your example Paul, you can rub fat or chocolate or rum into a t-shirt too and it will still smell of that a day later, however it doesn't mean that you will suffer any negative effects from the smell of fat, chocolate or rum.


That would be a valid analogy if fat, chocolate or rum were smoky carcinogens. Seriously, did you just say chocolate is the same as nicotine?

And if you can smell smoke, you are still inhaling portions of it.
"All Religions are equal and good, if only the people that practice them are honest people; and if Turks and heathens came and wanted to live here in this country, we would build them mosques and churches."
- Frederick II, King of Prussia, evil liberal™
~~~~~~
Cameron: "His wife arranged it for an anniversary present. And if you ask me, if two people really trust each other, a threesome once every seven years might actually help a marriage."
House: "Okay, I say we stop the DDX and discuss that comment."
~~~~~~
"Somebody came along and said 'liberal' means 'soft on crime, soft on drugs, soft on Communism, soft on defense, and we're gonna tax you back to the Stone Age because people shouldn't have to go to work if they don't want to.' And instead of saying, 'Well, excuse me, you right-wing, reactionary, xenophobic, homophobic, anti-education, anti-choice, pro-gun, Leave-it-to-Beaver trip back to the '50s,' we cowered in the corner and said, 'Please don't hurt me.' No more." - Bruno Gianelli

#10 Godeskian

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 10:02 AM

View PostPaul, on Mar 16 2009, 02:57 PM, said:

That would be a valid analogy if fat, chocolate or rum were smoky carcinogens. Seriously, did you just say chocolate is the same as nicotine?

Missed the point of the analogy entirely.

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you can smell smoke, you are still inhaling portions of it.

But are you inhaling the dangerous parts of it. The nicotine for example. My parents have a coal and wood fired stove, and and you can definitely smell the residue from that on their clothes, but that doesn't mean that damaging carcinogens were contained solely in the smell.

I guess i'm asking to what extent the damaging parts of cigarette smoke bond with clothing.

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#11 Paul

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 10:10 AM

Yes.

Scientific american.

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How exactly do you distinguish between second- and third- hand smoke?
Third-hand smoke refers to the tobacco toxins that build up over time—one cigarette will coat the surface of a certain room [a second cigarette will add another coat, and so on]. The third-hand smoke is the stuff that remains [after visible or "second-hand smoke" has dissipated from the air]…. You can't really quantify it, because it depends on the space…. In a tiny space like a car the deposition is really heavy…. Smokers [may] smoke in another room or turn on a fan. They don't see the smoke going into a child's nose; they think that if they cannot see it, it's not affecting [their children].

Smokers themselves are also contaminated…smokers actually emit toxins [from clothing and hair].

Why is third-hand smoke dangerous?
The 2006 surgeon general's report says there is no risk-free level of tobacco exposure…. There are 250 poisonous toxins found in cigarette smoke. One such substance is lead. Very good studies show that tiny levels of exposure are associated with diminished IQ.

What do you consider the most dangerous compound in cigarette smoke?
I would say cyanide, which is used in chemical weapons. It actually interferes with the release of oxygen to tissues. It competitively binds to hemoglobin [meaning it competes with oxygen for binding sites on the blood's oxygen-carrying molecule, hemoglobin]. Basically people with cyanide poison turn blue…. [And] arsenic, that is a poison used to kill mammals. We [used to] use it to kill rats. And there it is in cigarette smoke.

Why are the risks associated with exposure to third-hand smoke different for children and adults?
The developing brain is uniquely susceptible to extremely low levels of toxins. Remember how we talked about the layers of toxin deposits on surfaces? Who gets exposure to those surfaces? Babies and children are closer to [surfaces such as floors]. They tend to touch or even mouth [put their mouths to] the contaminated surfaces. Imagine a teething infant.

Children ingest twice the amount of dust that grown-ups do. Let's say a grown-up weighs 150 pounds [68 kilograms]. Let's say a baby weighs 15 pounds [seven kilograms]. The infant ingests twice the dust [due to faster respiration and proximity to dusty surfaces]. Effectively, they'll get 20 times the exposure.

Studies in rats suggest that tobacco toxin exposure is the leading cause of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). We think it is [caused by] respiratory suppression.

What types of places or materials harbor the greatest amount of third-hand smoke?
Anywhere you see an enclosed space you should watch out for [it].

By introducing the phrase "third-hand smoke" in your research, what do you hope to accomplish?
This study points to the need for every smoker to try to quit. That's the only way to completely protect their children…. Really, I think that what this says is that we need to have sympathy for smokers and help them quit smoking…. [And also] that the introduction of this concept will lead to more smoke-free spaces in…public.

The german Krebsforschungszentrum in Heidelberg has also confirmed the dangers.
"All Religions are equal and good, if only the people that practice them are honest people; and if Turks and heathens came and wanted to live here in this country, we would build them mosques and churches."
- Frederick II, King of Prussia, evil liberal™
~~~~~~
Cameron: "His wife arranged it for an anniversary present. And if you ask me, if two people really trust each other, a threesome once every seven years might actually help a marriage."
House: "Okay, I say we stop the DDX and discuss that comment."
~~~~~~
"Somebody came along and said 'liberal' means 'soft on crime, soft on drugs, soft on Communism, soft on defense, and we're gonna tax you back to the Stone Age because people shouldn't have to go to work if they don't want to.' And instead of saying, 'Well, excuse me, you right-wing, reactionary, xenophobic, homophobic, anti-education, anti-choice, pro-gun, Leave-it-to-Beaver trip back to the '50s,' we cowered in the corner and said, 'Please don't hurt me.' No more." - Bruno Gianelli

#12 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 10:14 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Mar 16 2009, 11:02 AM, said:

I guess i'm asking to what extent the damaging parts of cigarette smoke bond with clothing.

Well apparently none, or very little. But that hasn't stopped some from pointing to this quack's lame excuse of a study and saying...."See!" Some will always find a reason to discriminate against smokers...cause afterall smokers are evil incarnate, they are next to the taliban and Al-Queda in their evilness, they must be eradicated.  :sarcasm:

And yet they fail to realize that if they succed in their jihad against the evil smokers, get the smokers to quit...then Big Tobacco goes belly up...which means no more money from Big Tobacco. Which means some people will actually have to pay for their own kid's healt plan...Oh no. They can't have that...they'll probably go after the fat people once they've killed off all the evil incarnate smokers. Make the fat people pay for their kid's health care.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#13 BklnScott

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 10:41 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on Mar 16 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Mar 16 2009, 11:02 AM, said:

I guess i'm asking to what extent the damaging parts of cigarette smoke bond with clothing.

Well apparently none, or very little. But that hasn't stopped some from pointing to this quack's lame excuse of a study and saying...."See!" Some will always find a reason to discriminate against smokers...cause afterall smokers are evil incarnate, they are next to the taliban and Al-Queda in their evilness, they must be eradicated.  :sarcasm:

So how do you account for me?  You know I'm a casual smoker, and that I would *always* rather hang around with smokers -- I just tend to find them more interesting, and more fun, than people who are all like, "I can't believe you didn't bring your yoga mat!  Well, we can still do pilates."  Hell, I wouldn't mind if there were still some bars that allowed smoking--especially in the middle of the winter.  

Yet I think it's insane -- literally, insane -- to dispute that residue from toxic smoke that builds up on walls or etc is not also toxic.  Of course it is!  It's the same chemicals.  They do not suddenly become benign.  In fact, as the Scientific American article Paul quoted indicates, depending on how enclosed the space is, the build up over time may contribute to an even more toxic environment than just standing next to a smoker at a bus stop or whatever.  

Cyanide, dude.  Cyanide.  

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And yet they fail to realize that if they succed in their jihad against the evil smokers, get the smokers to quit...then Big Tobacco goes belly up...which means no more money from Big Tobacco. Which means some people will actually have to pay for their own kid's healt plan...Oh no.

Sounds like the very definition of a "high class problem."  Remember, I have promised to get down and kiss your ass in Macy's window if that day ever comes.

Edited by BklnScott, 16 March 2009 - 10:42 AM.

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#14 SparkyCola

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 10:47 AM

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So how do you account for me? You know I'm a casual smoker, and that I would *always* rather hang around with smokers -- I just tend to find them more interesting, and more fun, than people who are all like, "I can't believe you didn't bring your yoga mat! Well, we can still do pilates."

As a non-smoker, I object to that...distinctly bizarre... characterisation of non-smokers.

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#15 Broph

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 12:29 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on Mar 16 2009, 07:01 AM, said:

So it turns out that there was no proof behind the bogus "third hand smoke"....interesting. very interesting.

So it turns out that a columnist doing an opinion piece is any proof of anything? Interesting. Very interesting.

#16 Broph

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 12:30 PM

View PostKosh, on Mar 16 2009, 11:05 AM, said:

It is an opinion piece, with no facts either way.

I've really got to read before I hit reply.

#17 Themis

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 12:44 PM

Sorta kinda OT in that it's not about third hand smoke, but....... my friend's boyfriend is in the hospital with cancer of the esophagus.  It's worn a hole in the esophagus.  They're going to try to remove and replace it.  Slim chances.  He's been on feeding tubes for months.  49-year smoker.  My friend says she wishes she could bring every smoker into his room to see him.

Put that happy picture in your head the next time you light up.

(OK, doesn't/won't happen to everyone; every smoker won't get cancer or anything else - but why take the chance when what it might cause is so very nasty for both the patient and the caregiver?)  

I'm just a tad worked up right now because I have to go in tonight to notarize him signing a will...
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#18 Nonny

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:12 PM

View PostMary Rose, on Mar 15 2009, 09:06 PM, said:

http://www.iht.com/a...nion/edbeam.php

You mean people would actually make things up in support of a political agenda.  No!!!!   I'm shocked. ;)

Note I have no opinion on the Gulf War thing at the end of the article.  But the third hand smoke thing always smelled like bull sh*t to me.  Pardon the pun. :lol:
Seems to me that the political agenda in question is the prostinkingupthewholeworldandusingitasyourpersonalashtray agenda.  And I do have an opinion about Gulf War Syndrome, as does the US government: it exists, it is debilitating, and it is service-connectable.  

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I'm no fan of smoking but the backlash against smokers is just going too far in my opinion.  You're not an evil person if you smoke and it's far from child abuse.
No it doesn't, yes you are, yes it is, and it is spousal abuse as well.  IMO of course.
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#19 Nonny

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:18 PM

View PostThemis, on Mar 16 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

Sorta kinda OT in that it's not about third hand smoke, but....... my friend's boyfriend is in the hospital with cancer of the esophagus.  It's worn a hole in the esophagus.  They're going to try to remove and replace it.  Slim chances.  He's been on feeding tubes for months.  49-year smoker.  My friend says she wishes she could bring every smoker into his room to see him.

Put that happy picture in your head the next time you light up.

(OK, doesn't/won't happen to everyone; every smoker won't get cancer or anything else - but why take the chance when what it might cause is so very nasty for both the patient and the caregiver?)  

I'm just a tad worked up right now because I have to go in tonight to notarize him signing a will...
{{{{{{{Themis}}}}}}}

My friend who died from esophagal cancer smoked to the end.  Even though he had to be loaded into his wheelchair and rolled onto the only smoking patio left in my VA hospital to do it.  He wanted to quit, but couldn't, and it hurt, it hurt bad, but he couldn't stop.  He fought a quality of life issue over Coca Cola, and drank it in spite of how bad it hurt.  I remember the day he told me he couldn't drink Coke anymore, the sadness in his eyes.  But he still smoked.  I hope he is at peace now, because his addiction gave him no peace in life.
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#20 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 08:06 PM

View PostNonny, on Mar 16 2009, 08:12 PM, said:

No it doesn't, yes you are, yes it is, and it is spousal abuse as well.  IMO of course.

We're getting closer to the fiction world of "Demolition Man" everyday. Hell, nowadays if you even yell at a child people want to say it's abuse.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson



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