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Obama open to taxing health care benefits

Health Care Taxing benefits 2009

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#81 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 12:57 PM

EXACTLY!!!!!!
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#82 Nick

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 05:11 PM

^I don't have a problem with him saying "Fine, I'll hear you out."  Once he listens to the proposals, I think the answer will still be "No."  If he turns around and starts supporting taxing health care, then I'll join you in condemning him for it, but not before.

#83 Captain Jack

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 10:14 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Mar 17 2009, 03:07 PM, said:

Interesting comparison, but did Bush start his presidency in the middle of a bad recession? :eh:

Pretty much, yes.

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Surely the situations are simply much too different to compare?

Not really, no.  They're quite similar.  Only difference is before it was dot-com bust, now it is a financial bust.

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And does it actually make any difference as to "Who's worse, Bush or Obama" when Obama hasn't even finished yet? :eh:

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At least Bush didn't flush hundreds of BILLIONS down the gutter in his first year in office like Obama managed to do in his first 3 months.  Bush had a much better start than Obama has.  It took Bush more than halfway through his first term to start messing up.  And no, I am not a Bush supporter.
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#84 Dev F

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 01:00 AM

View PostCaptain Jack, on Mar 18 2009, 10:14 PM, said:

Not really, no.  They're quite similar.  Only difference is before it was dot-com bust, now it is a financial bust.
The crucial difference being that the dot-coms weren't at the very center of the international banking system, and thus their failure didn't threaten to throw the whole thing into chaos.

#85 Captain Jack

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 02:57 AM

View PostDev F, on Mar 18 2009, 11:00 PM, said:

View PostCaptain Jack, on Mar 18 2009, 10:14 PM, said:

Not really, no.  They're quite similar.  Only difference is before it was dot-com bust, now it is a financial bust.
The crucial difference being that the dot-coms weren't at the very center of the international banking system, and thus their failure didn't threaten to throw the whole thing into chaos.

And the notion that the entire banking system failed is false.  A lot of big banks failed, yes, and so did a lot of dot-com companies.  You can't have a healthy economy when hundreds of thousands of people were suddenly unemployed and lost everything.  Multi-millionairres became broke virtually over night.  Well-off people we suddenly pennyless by the thousands across the nation.  It was just as bad then, but people either forget or it didn't affect them.  Being in the center of Silicon Valley at the time, I witnessed Santa Clara county become a virtual ghost town in a matter of days, as it also was in many other parts of the country.  Don't tell me this time it is worse, because it isn't.  It's just this time around, it is from bad banking practices.

Edited by Captain Jack, 19 March 2009 - 02:58 AM.

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#86 Dev F

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 08:26 AM

View PostCaptain Jack, on Mar 19 2009, 02:57 AM, said:

And the notion that the entire banking system failed is false.  A lot of big banks failed, yes, and so did a lot of dot-com companies.  You can't have a healthy economy when hundreds of thousands of people were suddenly unemployed and lost everything.  Multi-millionairres became broke virtually over night.  Well-off people we suddenly pennyless by the thousands across the nation.  It was just as bad then, but people either forget or it didn't affect them.
But the crux of the current crisis isn't that wealthy people were suddenly poor. It's that the failure of huge financial institutions threatened the availability of loans, without which large portions of the economy cease to function (since even healthy companies often require infusions of credit to maintain their cash flow).

It's the difference between blowing out a tire, and blowing out an engine.

Edited by Dev F, 19 March 2009 - 08:26 AM.


#87 Hibblette

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 10:52 PM

View PostBad Wolf, on Mar 17 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

His ADMINISTRATION has said it.  Read the NY times article.  You're not suggesting that he isn't responsible for the statements made by his administration?

I'm saying there's no direct quote from the president.  Key words like "could" and "maybe" and then you have this-which is a complete "dog chasing his tail" type of journalism:

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When Senator Max Baucus, Democrat of Montana, advocated taxing benefits at a recent hearing of the Finance Committee, which he leads, Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner assured him that the administration was open to all ideas from Congress. Mr. Geithner did, however, allude to the position that Mr. Obama had taken as a candidate.

And the people within his administration are not giving a direct quote from the president.

Just exactly what does "could" and "maybe" and "open" mean?  Oh and the NY Times article says some employees healthcare benefits.

All of it from every angle (Journalist, Congress, and the Administration) are very vague and not really saying anything.
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#88 Captain Jack

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 12:26 AM

View PostDev F, on Mar 19 2009, 06:26 AM, said:

View PostCaptain Jack, on Mar 19 2009, 02:57 AM, said:

And the notion that the entire banking system failed is false.  A lot of big banks failed, yes, and so did a lot of dot-com companies.  You can't have a healthy economy when hundreds of thousands of people were suddenly unemployed and lost everything.  Multi-millionairres became broke virtually over night.  Well-off people we suddenly pennyless by the thousands across the nation.  It was just as bad then, but people either forget or it didn't affect them.
But the crux of the current crisis isn't that wealthy people were suddenly poor. It's that the failure of huge financial institutions threatened the availability of loans, without which large portions of the economy cease to function (since even healthy companies often require infusions of credit to maintain their cash flow).

It's the difference between blowing out a tire, and blowing out an engine.

It wasn't just the wealthy who became poor.  I also said regular Joes also lost everything.  And our entire economy does not revolve around borrowing, only part of it does.  It was out of control lending that led to the troubles of today, just as over-exaggerated stock worth led to the demise of hundreds of companies.  If no one panicked, this would simply have corrected itself over time.  But the media went insane over it, causing people to go panic, causing government to go and panic.

Prove to me that they were failing to begin with?  Prove it.  Those that failed did so due to their own unethical business practices.  It wasn't the economy, it was their own activities.  They deserved to go.  AIG wanted to spend milllions of dollars to throw parties, and then pay people bonuses.  Citibank wants to spend 10 million dollars to spruce up their offices.  Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and a large number of banks want to GIVE BACK their portions of the stimulus money.  By ADMISSION of three banks on my local area news, they said the NEVER NEEDED the money.  IT's all be hyped up to the point of insanity.  Government panicking, people panicking because the government panicking because banks FAKED their panicking.  They never needed the money.  Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have been under control for some time now.  It was other institutions who simply wanted to join in on the bandwagon for some extra scratch.  GM did it, as did Chrysler.  Their executives arrived in their own private jets.  Oh yeah, they really need the money.  :rolleyes:  Even the PORN industry was trying to make a play for it.  Why?  Because the current administration was essentially wheel-barrelling money to anyone.
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#89 Balderdash

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 07:01 AM

Quote

Because the current administration was essentially wheel-barrelling money to anyone.

Bailing out banks began in the previous administration.

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#90 Drew

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 08:24 AM

View PostHibblette, on Mar 19 2009, 10:52 PM, said:

And the people within his administration are not giving a direct quote from the president.

Just exactly what does "could" and "maybe" and "open" mean?

Given his campaign rhetoric, he shouldn't have even said "maybe." He should have said "no" the first second it was floated.
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#91 Hibblette

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 11:21 PM

View PostDrew, on Mar 20 2009, 08:24 AM, said:

View PostHibblette, on Mar 19 2009, 10:52 PM, said:

And the people within his administration are not giving a direct quote from the president.

Just exactly what does "could" and "maybe" and "open" mean?

Given his campaign rhetoric, he shouldn't have even said "maybe." He should have said "no" the first second it was floated.

Hmmm-I suppose I could assume that you have never been in a "think tank" meeting.

In such a meeting there is only the possibilities.

Also-can you say for a fact-an honest to God, knowing fact that he didn't say "No"?

You were there?  You heard him say "maybe"-again there are no direct quotes from the President in these articles, why not?  Perhaps because they know if they did give the direct quotes it wouldn't be so "godzilla type fear rendering"
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#92 Drew

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 12:19 PM

View PostHibblette, on Mar 21 2009, 11:21 PM, said:

Hmmm-I suppose I could assume that you have never been in a "think tank" meeting.

In such a meeting there is only the possibilities.

Also-can you say for a fact-an honest to God, knowing fact that he didn't say "No"?

You were there?  You heard him say "maybe"-again there are no direct quotes from the President in these articles, why not?  Perhaps because they know if they did give the direct quotes it wouldn't be so "godzilla type fear rendering"

Right. He wasn't really in favor of the idea. He was against it from the start. You're right. How dare I question The One.  :sarcasm:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#93 Hibblette

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 07:25 AM

View PostDrew, on Mar 22 2009, 12:19 PM, said:

View PostHibblette, on Mar 21 2009, 11:21 PM, said:

Hmmm-I suppose I could assume that you have never been in a "think tank" meeting.

In such a meeting there is only the possibilities.

Also-can you say for a fact-an honest to God, knowing fact that he didn't say "No"?

You were there?  You heard him say "maybe"-again there are no direct quotes from the President in these articles, why not?  Perhaps because they know if they did give the direct quotes it wouldn't be so "godzilla type fear rendering"

Right. He wasn't really in favor of the idea. He was against it from the start. You're right. How dare I question The One.  :sarcasm:

You were there then!  Nice.
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#94 Drew

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 11:22 AM

Even as this amateur President works day and night to screw this country over, people will still defend him to the death. The depth of support this idiot inspires is scary. Even the 60 minutes guy last night had to ask why the president finds our financial woes so amusing (because Obama just kept laughing about it all). He is an unserious person holding what is likely the most serious elected position in the entire world. He's fiddling while Rome burns.

I can't wait until he's gone.
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#95 Dev F

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 11:35 AM

View PostDrew, on Mar 23 2009, 11:22 AM, said:

Even as this amateur President works day and night to screw this country over, people will still defend him to the death.
Gosh, you don't suppose it's because people don't agree that he's "working day and night to screw this country over"?

It's maddening to be told constantly that constructive criticism and measured opposition to certain administration policies is not enough -- that if we don't hate everything about Obama unreservedly, if we don't think that he is simultaneously a naive doofus and a devious calculator, a balls-to-the-wall socialist and a typical bought-out politician, we must be brainwashed morons!

#96 Nick

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 12:04 PM

View PostDrew, on Mar 20 2009, 09:24 AM, said:

Given his campaign rhetoric, he shouldn't have even said "maybe." He should have said "no" the first second it was floated.

Stubbornly sticking to a plan without candidly listening to alternative proposals is a bad thing, imo, and something we've had far too much of the past eight years.

#97 Drew

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 12:15 PM

I'm not asking anyone to hate him. I don't hate him. But I sure pity us.

Pair a corrupt Congress with a completely amateurish President, and we get what we've got. Just when you think the other shoe has dropped comes the realization that we're dealing with a centipede. And it pisses me off that we are stuck this way for the next two years, after which, hopefully, we'll get a renewed GOP back in power in Congress and put some frakking checks on this administration. But it may be too late for our economy by then.

You're actually making me miss George Bush, and that pisses me off.

Edited by Drew, 23 March 2009 - 12:16 PM.

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#98 Balderdash

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 12:19 PM

View PostDev F, on Mar 23 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

View PostDrew, on Mar 23 2009, 11:22 AM, said:

Even as this amateur President works day and night to screw this country over, people will still defend him to the death.
Gosh, you don't suppose it's because people don't agree that he's "working day and night to screw this country over"?

It's maddening to be told constantly that constructive criticism and measured opposition to certain administration policies is not enough -- that if we don't hate everything about Obama unreservedly, if we don't think that he is simultaneously a naive doofus and a devious calculator, a balls-to-the-wall socialist and a typical bought-out politician, we must be brainwashed morons!

And don't forget that with every post you have to add the disclaimer that you may not agree with the President on everything.  And most importantly, after only 2 months, we are not allowed to mention the former President, his administration or the Congress that rubber stamped everything that he wanted to do until we reached the place that we are now in.

I don't agree with everything that the President is trying to do but I don't know enough to really say what he should be doing.  Out there on the internets it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.  I think I'll wait until he's actually done something terrible before I start denigrating his every utterance or non-utterance or misheard utterance.

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#99 Paul

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 01:12 PM

What Baldy said.
"All Religions are equal and good, if only the people that practice them are honest people; and if Turks and heathens came and wanted to live here in this country, we would build them mosques and churches."
- Frederick II, King of Prussia, evil liberal™
~~~~~~
Cameron: "His wife arranged it for an anniversary present. And if you ask me, if two people really trust each other, a threesome once every seven years might actually help a marriage."
House: "Okay, I say we stop the DDX and discuss that comment."
~~~~~~
"Somebody came along and said 'liberal' means 'soft on crime, soft on drugs, soft on Communism, soft on defense, and we're gonna tax you back to the Stone Age because people shouldn't have to go to work if they don't want to.' And instead of saying, 'Well, excuse me, you right-wing, reactionary, xenophobic, homophobic, anti-education, anti-choice, pro-gun, Leave-it-to-Beaver trip back to the '50s,' we cowered in the corner and said, 'Please don't hurt me.' No more." - Bruno Gianelli



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