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Universal Health Care Seeks To Exclude Abortion...

Health Care Abortion Exclusion 2009

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#1 Niki Jane

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:14 PM

http://www.time.com/...1909178,00.html

Quote

If an explicit ban on abortion coverage were imposed, say sources involved in writing the legislation on Capitol Hill, it could have much further-reaching implications than the Hyde Amendment ever did. It could, in fact, have the effect of denying abortion coverage to women who now receive it under their private insurance plans. Nearly 90% of insurers cover abortion procedures, according to a 2002 survey by the Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit organization whose statistics are relied upon by both sides of the abortion debate.

Under the legislation being worked on by three committees in the House, Americans earning up to 400% of the poverty level — $43,000 for an individual; $88,000 for a family of four — would be eligible for government subsidies to help them purchase coverage. But if the antiabortion legislators get their way, those subsidies would have a big string attached; they could not be used to purchase a policy that has abortion coverage. For many women, that would mean giving up a benefit they now have under their private insurance policies. And it would raise all sorts of other questions if insurers were allowed to discriminate among their customers based on whether or not they are using federal dollars to pay for their policies.


Discuss.

#2 Nonny

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:19 PM

Well that sucks out loud!    :angry:
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#3 Nick

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:21 PM

What troubles me most, is it doesn't sound like there's even a health exception involved in this.

#4 Niki Jane

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:25 PM

What it looks like to me, is that there are those in congress who would like to use the idea of universal health care for their own anti-abortion agenda. Using the fact that American's are looking down several more years of job loss and with it, loss of private insurance, to push forward their anti-abortion views. By making sure that abortion is not covered through any of their policies, they are ensuring that most women won't be able to afford it.

Among many other arguments, if someone cannot afford insurance, what makes these people assume that they will be able to afford a child. Is being shuffled through the arduous foster system really preferable in their eyes?

#5 sierraleone

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:25 PM

View PostNonny, on Jul 8 2009, 06:19 PM, said:

Well that sucks out loud!    :angry:

Excluding abortion, and/or that it may sink (as in stop forward movement) on Universal Health Care?

I could sort of understand the, its an elective procedure POV. But sometimes its not elective. Now I'm curious about if its covered under my own health care options up here in Canada.... hmmm.
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#6 Niki Jane

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:26 PM

View PostNick, on Jul 8 2009, 06:21 PM, said:

What troubles me most, is it doesn't sound like there's even a health exception involved in this.


Agreed, from what I got from the article I sourced from, they are not planning on including a clause exempting women who's health is at risk or those who are the victims of rape. Pathetic.

#7 Nonny

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:27 PM

View Postsierraleone, on Jul 8 2009, 03:25 PM, said:

View PostNonny, on Jul 8 2009, 06:19 PM, said:

Well that sucks out loud!    :angry:

Excluding abortion, and/or that it may sink (as in stop forward movement) on Universal Health Care?

I could sort of understand the, its an elective procedure POV. But sometimes its not elective. Now I'm curious about if its covered under my own health care options up here in Canada.... hmmm.
It wasn't elective for me, either time.    :angry:
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#8 Palisades

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:28 PM

From a purely practical point of view, I don't see that it makes much of a difference. AFAIK, abortions aren't that expensive (about $500?). Also, if abortions aren't covered by subsidized insurance plans, the insurance company could simply break it out as a line item. For example, my car insurance company has determined that the appropriate amount to charge me for opting to have car rentals covered is $15.00 and the appropriate amount for 'death indemnity' is $1.68. Health insurance companies could similarly calculate the appropriate amount to charge for abortion coverage and people who want that coverage could opt for it. Of course, health insurance companies might decide that doing this sets a precedent for them they don't want since then they might be expected to break out other items, in which case we might start to see something called price transparency introduced which appears contrary to the desires of insurance companies and medical providers.
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#9 Nonny

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:31 PM

View PostNiki Jane, on Jul 8 2009, 03:26 PM, said:

View PostNick, on Jul 8 2009, 06:21 PM, said:

What troubles me most, is it doesn't sound like there's even a health exception involved in this.


Agreed, from what I got from the article I sourced from, they are not planning on including a clause exempting women who's health is at risk or those who are the victims of rape. Pathetic.
I'm probably too freaking angry to take part in this discussion just now.  In addition to every other thought churning through my brain just now, I'm thinking that starving women out of abortions is a low blow, even for the jerks who deign to speak for their various versions of their angry deities.
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#10 Niki Jane

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:35 PM

Palisades, you certainly may be one of the lucky ones among us, but to me and most of the people I know, $500 is A LOT of money. Especially in the current economic climate.

However, what I gathered from the article, no heath care plan including abortion can be utilized unless you're planning on paying out of pocket for your own health care. Those with a government assisted health care policy cannot choose any plan that includes abortion.

#11 Aric

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:38 PM

Sierraleone, all the provinces cover the procedure in Canada, the biggest difference being some stop at as early as 12 weeks for the Territories, as late as 24 weeks in Ontario.

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#12 sierraleone

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:46 PM

View PostAric, on Jul 8 2009, 06:38 PM, said:

Sierraleone, all the provinces cover the procedure in Canada, the biggest difference being some stop at as early as 12 weeks for the Territories, as late as 24 weeks in Ontario.

Aric

Thanks, I had just found that out -

http://www.thestar.c.../article/578265
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#13 Palisades

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 06:02 PM

Niki Jane said:

[W]hat I gathered from the article, no heath care plan including abortion can be utilized unless you're planning on paying out of pocket for your own health care. Those with a government assisted health care policy cannot choose any plan that includes abortion.
Under the hypothetical scenario I talked about, you'd have the subsidized insurance that pays for everything except abortion and then you'd pay out of pocket for the abortion coverage option.


Quote

Palisades, you certainly may be one of the lucky ones among us, but to me and most of the people I know, $500 is A LOT of money. Especially in the current economic climate.
Anyone who makes over $30,000 should have very little difficulty putting $500 into savings. Coming up with $500 could be an issue for the working poor or unemployed, but aren't there organizations that provide abortions for free or much reduced rates to such people? One would think Planned Parenthood would at least provide a payment plan or financing options if they believe that availability of abortion is as vital as they claim and are interested in helping those in need of their services since they've surely already encountered a decent-sized number of people who want/need an abortion but don't have the cash on hand.

(One wrinkle for paying for abortions out of pocket would be the 0.2% of abortions that are partial-birth abortions, which cost something like $1100 to $1700 without insurance coverage. Since the percentage of abortions that are partial-birth abortions is so minutely small, this should have negligible impact on the amount that abortion insurance would cost, but paying for an $1100 to $1700 procedure out of pocket could be a problem for someone of modest financial means.)

As an aside, standard financial advice is to have a ready reserve of $2000 in your savings account and to have an emergency fund sufficient to pay three to six months of living expenses. Personally, I think that given the state of the economy, it would be a good idea to have an emergency fund that's sufficient to pay one to two years of living expenses.

Edited by Palisade, 08 July 2009 - 07:59 PM.

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#14 Rhea

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 06:51 PM

View PostNiki Jane, on Jul 8 2009, 03:25 PM, said:

What it looks like to me, is that there are those in congress who would like to use the idea of universal health care for their own anti-abortion agenda.

Bingo.
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#15 Palisades

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 07:04 PM

^ How does excluding abortion from subsidized health insurance prevent anyone who can get abortion now from getting it? It doesn't.

To me it seems that they're either using abortion as an attempt to gum up the works in getting universal health insurance bill passed, or they have a moral objection to taxpayer dollars being used to pay for abortions.
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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#16 Nick

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 07:35 PM

View PostPalisade, on Jul 8 2009, 08:04 PM, said:

^ How does excluding abortion from subsidized health insurance prevent anyone who can get abortion now from getting it? It doesn't.

To me it seems that they're either using abortion as an attempt to gum up the works in getting universal health insurance bill passed, or they have a moral objection to taxpayer dollars being used to pay for abortions.

My understanding is that many (if not most) current insurance policies do cover abortions.  There's a big difference between a $500 to $1500 full-menu-price procedure and a $25 co pay.

#17 Palisades

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 07:47 PM

^ But no one who already has a health insurance policy that covers abortion would lose that coverage if the universal health insurance bill is passed, unless they voluntarily give up their current health insurance to take one of the subsidized options or unless the availability of a public option would cause employers to start ditching the health insurance benefits they provide.

And the $1100 to $1700 was for partial-birth abortions, not normal abortions.

Edited by Palisade, 08 July 2009 - 08:21 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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#18 Shalamar

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 07:50 PM

the last time abortions were $500 is back in 2001, per this:

Quote

How much does a surgical abortion cost?

In 2001, the average charge for a surgical abortion at 10 weeks’ gestation was $468; but since most abortions in the United States are performed at low-cost clinics, women on average paid $372 for the procedure. (31)
How much does a medical abortion cost? In 2001, the average charge for a medical abortion was $487. (31)

Who pays for abortions?

Some 74% of women pay for abortions with their own money; 13% of abortions are covered by Medicaid, and 13% are billed directly to private insurance. Some women who pay for the procedure themselves may receive insurance reimbursement later. (31)
Does the U.S. government help poor women who need abortions pay for them?

Congress has barred the use of federal Medicaid funds to pay for abortions, except when the woman’s life would be endangered by a full-term pregnancy, or in cases of rape or incest. As of November 2006, 17 states used their own funds to subsidize abortion for poor women. (38) In actuality, however, about half of these states provide little to no funds to cover these services. (39)
How many states prohibit public funding of abortions?

A total of 32 states and the District of Columbia prohibit public funding of abortions, except in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest. South Dakota only provides public funding of abortions when necessary to protect the woman’s life, which is not in compliance with the federal Medicaid statute. (38)

and this is from another site:

Quote

In 2000, the cost of a nonhospital abortion with local anesthesia at ten weeks of gestation ranged from $150 to $4,000, and the average amount paid was $372

But that seems to still be the price range, but I can't find specific for any later than 2001ish

Edited by Shalamar, 08 July 2009 - 07:54 PM.

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#19 Palisades

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 08:12 PM

^ Okay, so let's take the average of $372 for an abortion at a low-cost clinic and multiply it by the 45% medical price inflation from 2000 to 2009.

We get $372 * 1.45 = $540.

See this page for the inflation calculator I used, which has information about the data sources the inflation rates are obtained from.

Edited by Palisade, 08 July 2009 - 08:13 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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#20 Shalamar

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 08:14 PM

I've got no problem with the most likely average being around $600 - but seriously this really does sound like some politicians using this as part of an anti abortion issue.

I am outraged at the thought of there being no exceptions.
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