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Healthcare Reform

Health Care Reform 2009

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#1 Balderdash

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:49 AM

Here is the link to Whitehouse.gov where you can find what the administration is doing about healthcare reform: http://www.whitehous...es/health_care/

If you have any facts and I mean facts, you have to make some effort to back up what you find as a fact and post it here. Perhaps we can find a way to have our own townhall meeting without all of the shouting and rhetoric. We need healthcare reform and we don't need either sides arm twisting and we certainly don't need any shills for big business and the Insurance industry.

Edited by Balderdash, 07 August 2009 - 08:49 AM.

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#2 Balderdash

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:03 AM

Here's some stuff from AARP: http://aarp.convio.n.../Myths_vs_Facts

Quote

Myth: Health care reform is socialized medicine.

Fact: Health care reform will preserve the employer-based health care system, meaning an estimated 200 million Americans will continue to get their coverage through their employers.

Fact: For people buying coverage for themselves, there would be a range of private health plans to choose from. Also, the so-called "public plan" option would seek to give American consumers another choice if they can't find affordable, quality coverage in the private insurance market. The goal of the "public plan" is to give consumers the best value for their money and force greater competition among insurance plans for our business.

Fact: Every proposal that Congress is considering would allow people to choose their own doctors and hospitals.

Bottom Line: Health care reform isn't about a government takeover. It's about guaranteeing all Americans a choice of health care plans they can afford.

Myth: Health care reform means rationed care.

Fact: None of the health reform proposals being considered would stand between individuals and their doctors or prevent any American from choosing the best possible care.

Fact: Health care reform will NOT give the government the power to make life or death decisions for anyone regardless of their age. Those decisions will be made by an individual, their doctor and their family.

Fact: Health care reform will help ensure doctors are paid fairly so they will continue to treat Medicare patients.

Bottom Line: Health reform isn't about rationing; it's about giving people the peace of mind of knowing that they will be able to keep their doctors and that they will always have a choice of affordable health plans.

Myth: Health care reform will hurt Medicare.

Fact: None of the health care reform proposals being considered by Congress would cut Medicare benefits or increase your out-of-pocket costs for Medicare services.

Fact: Health care reform will lower prescription drug costs for people in the Medicare Part D coverage gap or "doughnut hole" so they can get better afford the drugs they need.

Fact: Health care reform will protect seniors' access to their doctors and reduce the cost of preventive services so patients stay healthier.

Fact: Health care reform will reduce costly, preventable hospital readmissions, saving patients and Medicare money.

Fact: Rather than weaken Medicare, health care reform will strengthen the financial status of the Medicare program.

Bottom Line: For people in Medicare, health care reform is about lowering prescription drug costs for people in the "doughnut hole", keeping the doctor of your choice, improving the quality of care, and eliminating billions in waste that is causing poor care and medical errors.

Myth: Health care reform is too expensive – we can't afford it.

Fact: The President and Congress have committed to producing legislation that will be paid for so it won't saddle our children and grandchildren with debt.

Fact: If we do nothing to fix health care, families with Medicare or employer-based health coverage will likely see their premiums nearly double again in the next seven years.

Fact: If we do nothing to fix health care, the share of your income spent on health care will nearly double in the next seven years.

Bottom Line: When one in three Americans say someone in their family skipped pills, postponed or cut back on needed medical care due to the cost; when countless bankruptcies are related to medical expenses; when the number of uninsured approaches 50 million; when government spending on health programs rises so rapidly that it jeopardizes other priorities; and when employers struggle to pay for the costs of health care, the fact is, we can't afford not to fix health care.

Myth: Health care reform means the government can make life-and-death decisions for you.

Fact: Health care reform will NOT give the government the power to make life-and-death decisions for anyone regardless of their age. Those decisions will be made by individuals, their doctor and their family.

Fact: No one, including the government or your insurance company, will be given power to make life-and-death decisions for you.

Bottom Line: Health care reform isn't about putting the government in charge of difficult end of life decisions. It's about giving individuals and families the option to talk with their doctors in advance about difficult choices every family faces when loved ones near the end of their lives.





Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



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#3 Mark

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:12 AM

Balderdash:

Quote

Fact: The President and Congress have committed to producing legislation that will be paid for so it won't saddle our children and grandchildren with debt.

Mark:
Fact: Only the first 10 years have been factored in paying for the program. After that, the bottom drops out, and the government can no longer support the program without more money from tax payers.

I heard that this morning watching C-Span as a Sen. from Arizona spoke.
Mark
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#4 Palisades

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:22 AM

Fact: This program is a pointless exercise in bureaucracy to make it look like Congress is doing something. To get the cost down to $1 trillion over the first 10 years, the health insurance will only pay 65% of the insurees' medical bills, leaving the insurees responsible for the other 35%. So, the taxpayers pay up $1 trillion to subsidize this mess, insurees pay premiums depending on income, and the insurees still are left with having to pay 35% of their medical bills out-of-pocket. Guess what 35% of a major medical operation costs? Enough to induce bankruptcy among people who need subsidized insurance in the first place, I'd wager.

Can you say, "boondoggle"?

Edited by Palisade, 07 August 2009 - 09:28 AM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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#5 Balderdash

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:26 AM

View PostMark, on Aug 7 2009, 07:12 AM, said:

Balderdash:

Quote

Fact: The President and Congress have committed to producing legislation that will be paid for so it won't saddle our children and grandchildren with debt.

Mark:
Fact: Only the first 10 years have been factored in paying for the program. After that, the bottom drops out, and the government can no longer support the program without more money from tax payers.

I heard that this morning watching C-Span as a Sen. from Arizona spoke.


heh!  Senators say anything on the floor, doesn't make it a fact.

Fact: President Obama has lowered the taxes for most Americans.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#6 Balderdash

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:29 AM

View PostPalisade, on Aug 7 2009, 07:22 AM, said:

Fact: This program is a pointless exercise in bureaucracy to make it look like Congress is doing something. To get the cost down to $1 trillion over the first 10 years, the health insurance will only pay 65% of the insurees' medical bills, leaving the insurees responsible for the other 35%. So, the taxpayers pay up $1 trillion to subsidize this mess, insurees pay premiums depending on income, and the insurees still are left with having to pay 35% of their medical bills out-of-pocket. Guess what 35% of a major medical operation costs? Enough to induce bankruptcy among people who need subsidized insurance in the first place, I'd wager.

Can you say, "boondoggle"?


I'm sorry but your link doesn't link to any facts.  You can have an opinion but I'm only looking for facts here.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#7 Palisades

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:30 AM

^ My link links to the thread where I excerpt the relevant paragraphs and give a link to the full article. The two excerpted paragraphs in the other thread are from page 5 of the article, IIRC.
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#8 Balderdash

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 10:12 AM

View PostPalisade, on Aug 7 2009, 07:30 AM, said:

^ My link links to the thread where I excerpt the relevant paragraphs and give a link to the full article. The two excerpted paragraphs in the other thread are from page 5 of the article, IIRC.


Quote

This is good news for UnitedHealth, which benefits when patients pick up more of the tab. In late spring, the Finance Committee was assuming a 76% reimbursement rate on average, meaning consumers would be responsible for paying the remaining 24% of their medical bills, in addition to their insurance premiums. Stevens and his UnitedHealth colleagues urged a more industry-friendly ratio. Subsequently the committee reduced the reimbursement figure to 65%, suggesting a 35% contribution by consumers—more in line with what the big insurer wants. The final figures are still being debated.

None of that is fact, it's all conjecture.  But I will applaud you for posting the link to the heinous goings on that the Insurance Industry and lobbyests like UnitedHealth and the Lewin Group.  All of our ears should perk up when we hear from the Lewin Group, they are the biggest and loudest (for now) lobbying group for insurers out there and whatever way they can f*ck us over and get more money from us they will do, thus the need for reform.  I hope that President Obama will stick to his guns.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#9 Mark

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:17 AM

View PostBalderdash, on Aug 7 2009, 08:26 AM, said:

View PostMark, on Aug 7 2009, 07:12 AM, said:

Balderdash:

Quote

Fact: The President and Congress have committed to producing legislation that will be paid for so it won't saddle our children and grandchildren with debt.

Mark:
Fact: Only the first 10 years have been factored in paying for the program. After that, the bottom drops out, and the government can no longer support the program without more money from tax payers.

I heard that this morning watching C-Span as a Sen. from Arizona spoke.


heh!  Senators say anything on the floor, doesn't make it a fact.

Fact: President Obama has lowered the taxes for most Americans.

Mark:
Do you deny his accusations then?
Mark
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#10 Palisades

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:18 AM

@Balderdash:

Yes, the final figures may be different, but that doesn't mean the current ones are conjecture. The Senate Finance Committee is assuming that the proposed health insurance plans will only reimburse insurees for 65% of their medical bills. That's their benchmark, what they're aiming for.

Speaking of conjecture, isn't it conjecture on the AARP's part that the proposed health insurance reform would preserve the employer-based health insurance system -- rather than encourage employers to stop offering their health insurance plans and instead throw their employees into the taxpayer-subsidized insurance program?

Edited by Palisade, 07 August 2009 - 11:20 AM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#11 Balderdash

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:39 AM

View PostMark, on Aug 7 2009, 09:17 AM, said:

View PostBalderdash, on Aug 7 2009, 08:26 AM, said:

View PostMark, on Aug 7 2009, 07:12 AM, said:

Balderdash:

Quote

Fact: The President and Congress have committed to producing legislation that will be paid for so it won't saddle our children and grandchildren with debt.

Mark:
Fact: Only the first 10 years have been factored in paying for the program. After that, the bottom drops out, and the government can no longer support the program without more money from tax payers.

I heard that this morning watching C-Span as a Sen. from Arizona spoke.


heh! Senators say anything on the floor, doesn't make it a fact.

Fact: President Obama has lowered the taxes for most Americans.

Mark:
Do you deny his accusations then?


Yes.  The President has already lowered most peoples taxes and the only taxes that he says he will raise are for the top 1 or 2 %.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#12 Balderdash

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 12:09 PM

http://www.whitehous...er-protections/

That is the link to what I guess President Obama is proposing in the way of consumer protections.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#13 Mark

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 12:33 PM

View PostBalderdash, on Aug 7 2009, 10:39 AM, said:

View PostMark, on Aug 7 2009, 09:17 AM, said:

View PostBalderdash, on Aug 7 2009, 08:26 AM, said:

View PostMark, on Aug 7 2009, 07:12 AM, said:

Balderdash:

Quote

Fact: The President and Congress have committed to producing legislation that will be paid for so it won't saddle our children and grandchildren with debt.

Mark:
Fact: Only the first 10 years have been factored in paying for the program. After that, the bottom drops out, and the government can no longer support the program without more money from tax payers.

I heard that this morning watching C-Span as a Sen. from Arizona spoke.


heh! Senators say anything on the floor, doesn't make it a fact.

Fact: President Obama has lowered the taxes for most Americans.

Mark:
Do you deny his accusations then?


Yes.  The President has already lowered most peoples taxes and the only taxes that he says he will raise are for the top 1 or 2 %.


Mark:
No, I mean do you deny that this new Health Care Reform bill has only been researched for total cost only for the next 10 years, and no further? The Senator from Arizona made a pretty compelling argument about this issue.
Mark
Discussion is an exchange of knowledge: argument is an exchange of ignorance.
Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it.
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#14 Balderdash

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 12:38 PM

View PostMark, on Aug 7 2009, 10:33 AM, said:

View PostBalderdash, on Aug 7 2009, 10:39 AM, said:

View PostMark, on Aug 7 2009, 09:17 AM, said:

View PostBalderdash, on Aug 7 2009, 08:26 AM, said:

View PostMark, on Aug 7 2009, 07:12 AM, said:

Balderdash:

Quote

Fact: The President and Congress have committed to producing legislation that will be paid for so it won't saddle our children and grandchildren with debt.

Mark:
Fact: Only the first 10 years have been factored in paying for the program. After that, the bottom drops out, and the government can no longer support the program without more money from tax payers.

I heard that this morning watching C-Span as a Sen. from Arizona spoke.


heh! Senators say anything on the floor, doesn't make it a fact.

Fact: President Obama has lowered the taxes for most Americans.

Mark:
Do you deny his accusations then?


Yes. The President has already lowered most peoples taxes and the only taxes that he says he will raise are for the top 1 or 2 %.


Mark:
No, I mean do you deny that this new Health Care Reform bill has only been researched for total cost only for the next 10 years, and no further? The Senator from Arizona made a pretty compelling argument about this issue.


Can you provide anything at all about what this Senator said?  You're not even telling me what his name is.  Proof, I want proof not some Senators jabbering.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#15 Balderdash

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 12:42 PM

From the OMB, Office of Management and Budget: http://www.whitehous...scalDiscipline/



Quote

Friday, May 29th, 2009 at 10:47 am<H2 style="MARGIN: 0px 0px 10px">Health Care Reform and Fiscal Discipline</H2>Peter R. Orszag, Director

When I give public talks on health care reform, the question I receive most often is "given the government's fiscal situation, how can it make sense for the government to take on new spending commitments as part of health reform?"  The answer is two-fold.  First, health care reform has two components: cost containment provisions and expanded coverage.  In the near term, the impact of expanded coverage will temporarily dominate, and health care reform will therefore temporarily increase government spending.   Over time, however, the impact of the cost containment provisions will accumulate, and the net impact will be a reduction – and perhaps a dramatic one – in government spending.  Second, while we are waiting for the cost containment provisions to take hold, we are insisting that health care reform be deficit neutral.  In other words, the Administration is committed to a health care reform that is at least deficit neutral over 10-years -- and deficit-reducing, potentially to quite a significant degree, over the longer term. The two figures below represent stylized versions of health care plans similar to those being discussed in Congress.  The first figure shows the impact of reform on federal health care spending.  The solid line shows baseline federal spending on Medicare and Medicaid under the assumption that health care costs continue to grow at historic rates.  The three dotted lines show health care spending under reform.  In the three reform scenarios excess health care cost growth is reduced by 0.5, 1.0, and 1.5 percentage points, respectively.  With health care reform, spending initially increases because health care coverage expands, but reform also slows the growth of health care spending.  What we see is that it takes only 10 to 16 years after reform for Federal health care spending to be lower than it would have been in the absence of reform.
Posted Image
The second figure shows the impact of health reform on the budget deficit.  Within the 10-year budget window, the impact of health care reform is negligible because the plan is fully paid for; the short-term increase in spending will be offset with additional revenues.  Over the longer term the budget situation improves considerably – because health care spending declines and because taxable compensation increases.
Posted Image

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#16 Palisades

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 12:46 PM

^ What does the proposed legislation do to contain costs? AFAIK, it does very little.

Edited by Palisade, 07 August 2009 - 12:46 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#17 Balderdash

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 01:03 PM

View PostPalisade, on Aug 7 2009, 10:46 AM, said:

^ What does the proposed legislation do to contain costs? AFAIK, it does very little.

I'm looking for it but may not get to it today, I'm at work.  :whistle:

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#18 Balderdash

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 01:28 PM

http://edlabor.house...oices-act.shtml

and then this: http://edlabor.house...eficit-ne.shtml

CBO Scores Confirms Deficit Neutrality of Health Reform Bill

Quote

Washington, D.C. -- The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) released estimates this evening confirming for the first time that H.R. 3200, America’s Affordable Health Choices Act, is deficit neutral over the 10-year budget window – and even produces a $6 billion surplus.  CBO estimated more than $550 billion in gross Medicare and Medicaid savings.  More importantly, the bill includes a comprehensive array of delivery reforms to set the stage for lowering the future growth in health care costs.

:blink:  Wow, that is certainly different from what the Republicnas want us to believe.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#19 Bad Wolf

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 01:40 PM

The other day on some news channel a senator (republican) was being interviewed and he made a statement that if an American is dissatisfied with the insurance coverage he or she has then they can simply go get different insurance.  The out of touchedness of this statement floored me and to me is indicative of the sort of ostrich mentality of anyone denying that there needs to be reform.

I think there needs to be reform.  Whether Obama's proposals are good ideas for effecting that reform is debatable.

One thing that I often hear detractors objecting to is the idea of giving the government control over healthcare decisions.  But don't insurance companies already excercise this control?  And with their motive being profit is it likely that they truly have health as a first priority?  

Another concern is the creation of government bureacracy to administer the reform.  I think this concern is not out of left field but SOMEONE has to administer this stuff.

Another concern (and the most valid one imo) is how is it to be paid for?

For me the goal of reform is not just the reduction of cost.  It's accessibility for those who don't have insurance but surely it's also the more effective care for those who already have it.

I don't think there are any easy solutions.
Posted Image

#20 Balderdash

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 01:49 PM

View PostBad Wolf, on Aug 7 2009, 11:40 AM, said:

The other day on some news channel a senator (republican) was being interviewed and he made a statement that if an American is dissatisfied with the insurance coverage he or she has then they can simply go get different insurance. The out of touchedness of this statement floored me and to me is indicative of the sort of ostrich mentality of anyone denying that there needs to be reform.

I think there needs to be reform. Whether Obama's proposals are good ideas for effecting that reform is debatable.

One thing that I often hear detractors objecting to is the idea of giving the government control over healthcare decisions. But don't insurance companies already excercise this control? And with their motive being profit is it likely that they truly have health as a first priority?

Another concern is the creation of government bureacracy to administer the reform. I think this concern is not out of left field but SOMEONE has to administer this stuff.

Another concern (and the most valid one imo) is how is it to be paid for?

For me the goal of reform is not just the reduction of cost. It's accessibility for those who don't have insurance but surely it's also the more effective care for those who already have it.

I don't think there are any easy solutions.

Read the last links that I put up, they are directly to the committee that did HR 3200 and the CBO (Congressional Budget Office) says that not only is the Bill deficit neutral but will also produce a surplus.
I didn't know that part, it would be in our best interests if we made sure that we informed ourselves.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC




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