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Islamic tradition and text messages

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 01:02 AM

http://story.news.ya...alaysia_divorce

Quote

KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - Malaysian Muslim men can divorce their wives through text messages on mobile telephones, the New Straits Times daily reports, quoting a religious adviser to the government.

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~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#2 Enmar

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 01:22 AM

Actually, with all due respect to modern technology, I think to bottom line is the important one:

Quote

Islamic law permits a man to divorce his wife by declaring "I divorce you" three times.

And even in modern days, this falls under "freedom of religion", in an un-addressed conflict with the woman's rights.
Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.

#3 QueenTiye

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 02:10 AM

In a long standing tradition that goes back to the Qur'an itself - the right i question is being talked about as a right of men, but is in fact a universal right.  In Islam, saying something three times is an oath.  Men and women marry that way, and they BOTH divorce that way.

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#4 Enmar

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 02:15 AM

^ I think you're wrong, it's only the man's right :angry:
Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.

#5 QueenTiye

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 02:34 AM

Enmar, on Jul 26 2003, 11:05 AM, said:

^ I think you're wrong, it's only the man's right :angry:
No - it's not.  Relevant quote coming.  But - in all fairness, many islamic countries seem to have found lots of ways to make stuff up to recind the rights that Muhammad gave women....  :angry:

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#6 Enmar

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 02:57 AM

That's interesting. I tried to search myself, but I can't tell which websites are credible :(

Edited by Enmar, 27 July 2003 - 02:58 AM.

Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.

#7 GiGi

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 03:21 AM

QueenTiye, on Jul 26 2003, 07:24 AM, said:

Enmar, on Jul 26 2003, 11:05 AM, said:

^ I think you're wrong, it's only the man's right :angry:
No - it's not.  Relevant quote coming.  But - in all fairness, many islamic countries seem to have found lots of ways to make stuff up to recind the rights that Muhammad gave women....  :angry:
Indeed the Koran has been interpreted in all sorts of manner including that music is evil and should be abolished!

I have read parts of it, but in English of course so that is only as good as the translation.  I have been told that some of the parts that relate to the treatment of women and children is for their protection in a desert environment.  It is the interpretation of some of this by the male clerics in power that create the inequality in that system.

The book is actually very poetic and an Imam that was at a Mosque that I visited have figured out on the computer that the Koran has an incredibly intricate number system embedded in it.  There are certain repetitions of words, letters and so forth that are based on the number 18 (or maybe 19, I forget) If one letter or one word had been changed, the whole number system would collapse.  That is pretty amazing, considering Mohammad was illiterate!!
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#8 QueenTiye

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 07:15 AM

From the Qur'an - Chapter 2

226. Those who intend to divorce their wives
                shall wait four months (cooling off);
if they change their minds and reconcile,
                then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

227. If they go through with the divorce,
then GOD is Hearer, Knower.

228. The divorced women shall wait
three menstruations (before
marrying another man). It is not
lawful for them to conceal what
GOD creates in their wombs, if
they believe in GOD and the Last
Day. (In case of pregnancy,) the
husband's wishes shall supersede
the wife's wishes, if he wants to
remarry her. The women have
rights, as well as obligations,
equitably.
Thus, the man's wishes
prevail (in case of pregnancy).
GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

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#9 Delvo

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 09:03 AM

Since that statement of women's rights and obligations being "equitable" is immediately followed by a statement that the man's wishes are the final order in case of pregnancy, and it's even stated in such a way that the latter (where the man is the final authority) is directly derived from the former (the "equitable" thing), I don't see how that former statement can be read as meaning that women have the same rights as men for the preceding paragraphs. And without that kind of "Oh ya, it goes both ways" afterthought being applicable, all we have is a statement about what the man has the right to do.

Of course, although it doesn't seem to mean that she has the same rights as a man, I don't know what ELSE it could mean, since that is what it seemed to mean until the sentence after it proved that impossible...

#10 QueenTiye

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 10:29 AM

Thats an easy one.. :p

Only women CAN be pregnant - so it is essentially saying that men have a right to have some say over the baby - not just the woman.  In every other respect where there are no distinctions between men and women - the same rules apply.

In fact - the ONLY reason for ANY restrictions on women concerning divorce is this issue of pregnancy.  It is the reason for the three month wait before she can remarry, and the Qur'an gives the father the right to dictate to the mother that she nurse a baby for up to two years.  Beyond that - the husband has no rights over the woman - and in fact, Qur'anic law stipulates that if the woman wants to stay in the house where she lived with the man - the man has to leave - he can't put her out.

Editing to add: That's what's meant by "equitably" as opposed to "equally."  Other translations use such phrases as "similar"... women can't be tossed out, and can't be made to give back anything she got during the marriage (wedding gifts, dowries, etc.), but she can be imposed upon if she is carrying the man's child.  Moreover - the man can be imposed upon for financial support in case of divorce up until she marries someone else.  So the Qur'an asserts that both men and women have equitable (but not equal) rights and responsibilities.

QT

Edited by QueenTiye, 27 July 2003 - 10:37 AM.

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#11 Rhea

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:14 AM

QueenTiye, on Jul 26 2003, 04:19 PM, said:

Thats an easy one.. :p

Only women CAN be pregnant - so it is essentially saying that men have a right to have some say over the baby - not just the woman.  In every other respect where there are no distinctions between men and women - the same rules apply.

In fact - the ONLY reason for ANY restrictions on women concerning divorce is this issue of pregnancy.  It is the reason for the three month wait before she can remarry, and the Qur'an gives the father the right to dictate to the mother that she nurse a baby for up to two years.  Beyond that - the husband has no rights over the woman - and in fact, Qur'anic law stipulates that if the woman wants to stay in the house where she lived with the man - the man has to leave - he can't put her out.

Editing to add: That's what's meant by "equitably" as opposed to "equally."  Other translations use such phrases as "similar"... women can't be tossed out, and can't be made to give back anything she got during the marriage (wedding gifts, dowries, etc.), but she can be imposed upon if she is carrying the man's child.  Moreover - the man can be imposed upon for financial support in case of divorce up until she marries someone else.  So the Qur'an asserts that both men and women have equitable (but not equal) rights and responsibilities.

QT
QT, I don't see anything in that passage about women divorcing men. Is there another relevant passage? I ask because it's been many, many years since I read the Qur'an (it was still called the Koran when I read it last :p), and I remember being struck by how few rights women have.
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- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#12 QueenTiye

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:36 AM

Women have ALL the same rights as men except as regards some specifics that Islam views as pertinent to women's station - for instance the infamous allowance of 4 wives is specifically dealing with women who cannot take care of themselves financially - the recommendation is to attempt to do right by these women without marrying them, but if the guy just can't help himself, there's no blame if he marries them (up to four).

The important thing to remember about reading the Qur'an (specifically) is that Muhammad is talking throughout to men.  So, for instance - there is a passage that says that during Ramadan everyone must fast, and that men can have sexual relations with their wives after sundown... o.k. so obviously women are likewise to have sexual relations with their HUSBANDS after sundown - but it doesn't say that. LOL!

QT

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#13 QueenTiye

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 04:48 AM

Here is a site of American Muslim Women attempting to clear the silver from the dross on issues concerning women in Islam:

http://www.mwlusa.or...rs/divorce.html

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#14 sierraleone

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 05:33 AM

^ Thanks for the link
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#15 QueenTiye

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 06:02 AM

GiGi, on Jul 26 2003, 12:11 PM, said:

The book is actually very poetic and an Imam that was at a Mosque that I visited have figured out on the computer that the Koran has an incredibly intricate number system embedded in it.  There are certain repetitions of words, letters and so forth that are based on the number 18 (or maybe 19, I forget) If one letter or one word had been changed, the whole number system would collapse.  That is pretty amazing, considering Mohammad was illiterate!!
It's 19.  And I've seen some of the writings on this subject.  Some of it is very iffy.  Some of it is pretty cool.   And - it is rather debatable this business of Muhammad being illiterate.

QT

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#16 Rhea

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 08:03 AM

sierraleone, on Jul 28 2003, 11:23 AM, said:

^ Thanks for the link
Me too. Thanks, QT.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#17 QueenTiye

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 09:01 AM

You're welcome sierraleone & Rhea!

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#18 Norville

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 12:38 PM

Quote

And - it is rather debatable this business of Muhammad being illiterate.

I question that, myself, although it's claimed that when Allah told him to "Recite!", he protested that he couldn't read. Supposedly, he was quite a good businessman. I imagine it's possible that he was good with numbers while not being able to read, but I question the myth.
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#19 tennyson

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:53 AM

I know of a lot of cases in the historical literature of merchants in the Middle East  in as far back as Sumerian times being decent at the kind of math and the abacus needed for commerce but still being functionally if not completely illiterate. Until relatively recently in most of the world reading was only an activity of a tiny elite that kept records and generally worked for the government. It was expensive and time consuming to send someonw to school at what we would consider even the most basic level for a long time.
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— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#20 sierraleone

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 06:17 AM

^ education is still expensive :p *looks sadly at her tuition....* ;) :D

And there are taxes to support elementary and highschool... People don't pay for it directly, thats all ;) :)
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html



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