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Here we go: Obama's health care address to joint session of Congre

Health Care Obama Speech 2009

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#101 Drew

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 10:58 AM

View PostBalderdash, on Sep 10 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

How is that personal?

You focused on me. You made it personal.

Quote

And are you calling for my sanction or are you baiting me?

No, Baldy, you're the one flame-baiting. I'm trying to talk about policies. You're trying to start flame wars.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#102 Drew

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:00 AM

View PostBklnScott, on Sep 10 2009, 10:58 AM, said:

reuters said:

the bill states
that illegal immigrants are not eligible for the new taxpayer-funded
affordability credits

Nice (purposefully misleading and dishonest) chop-job. Here's the whole quote:

Reuters said:

As President Obama addresses the nation on health care reform, a new analysis by the Center for Immigration Studies estimates that 6.6 million uninsured illegal immigrants could receive benefits under the House health reform bill (H.R. 3200). While the bill states that illegal immigrants are not eligible for the new taxpayer-funded affordability credits, there is nothing in the bill to enforce this provision. Congress defeated efforts to require the use of the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) program. More than 70 other programs of this kind use SAVE.

Edited by Drew, 10 September 2009 - 11:05 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#103 Palisades

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:04 AM

^ Well, gee. I guess the Federal Reserve can just run the printing presses and that will solve everything. Illegals, come to America and get free health care as we continue to trash the dollar!
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

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#104 Balderdash

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:07 AM

View PostDrew, on Sep 10 2009, 08:58 AM, said:

View PostBalderdash, on Sep 10 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

How is that personal?

You focused on me. You made it personal.

Quote

And are you calling for my sanction or are you baiting me?

No, Baldy, you're the one flame-baiting. I'm trying to talk about policies. You're trying to start flame wars.


Well, I'll just let the mods sort it out.  I asked you a legitiamte question and you're not answering it.

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#105 Spectacles

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:09 AM

Quote

Drew: I don't think he sees it as destroying America. I think he is so convinced that big government is the answer to everything that he does not see the resulting problems as mattering one bit.

Which of the actions he proposed last night are big government? Are all regulations big government? Should government not regulate business at all? The health care plan is largely a gift to insurers. Sure, they'll be subject to some more regulations (with loopholes, no doubt) but they will gain millions of new clients thanks to the mandates. The administration and Congress have written these proposals WITH the health care industries.

Quote

The problem is, so many people who lean Democrat feel like they must support even the most dangerous political ideology because it comes from a guy on their side. (Just like Republicans felt they had to support George Bush because he was one of them.)

What dangerous ideology does Obama have?

Quote

But is he really? Really? How can you tell? What do his actions say? Think about the issues that matter most to you. What has he actually done? Actions, not words.

I do this daily. In health care reform, Obama's support of the weakened public option is lukewarm. That's the only government program in the proposals. And it is not going to pass. This is why Obama won't say he'll veto any plan that doesn't include it. He *knows* it won't pass. The Democrats are wooing the insurers and the pharmaceutical companies. They're getting mandates in return for some regulations and even more subsidies--either directly or indirectly as government gives them more customers and puts money in those customers' hands if they need it.

This is a "dangerous ideology" in action?
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#106 SparkyCola

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:12 AM

Please keep this on topic people. Post not poster. If you think someone is being unreasonable, maybe you just need to dig a little deeper for the reasoning behind the comment - it won't help anything to just dismiss someone's views out of hand because you don't understand where they are coming from.

Sparky
Able to entertain a thought without taking it home to meet the parents

#107 Spectacles

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:20 AM

View PostDrew, on Sep 10 2009, 12:00 PM, said:

View PostBklnScott, on Sep 10 2009, 10:58 AM, said:

reuters said:

the bill states
that illegal immigrants are not eligible for the new taxpayer-funded
affordability credits

Nice (purposefully misleading and dishonest) chop-job. Here's the whole quote:

Reuters said:

As President Obama addresses the nation on health care reform, a new analysis by the Center for Immigration Studies estimates that 6.6 million uninsured illegal immigrants could receive benefits under the House health reform bill (H.R. 3200). While the bill states that illegal immigrants are not eligible for the new taxpayer-funded affordability credits, there is nothing in the bill to enforce this provision. Congress defeated efforts to require the use of the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) program. More than 70 other programs of this kind use SAVE.

Reuters needs to do its homework. CIS is a front organization for the virulent, anti-immigration movement. Any CIS "analysis" is propaganda.

http://www.splcenter...ativist_cis.jsp
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#108 Dev F

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:26 AM

View PostSpectacles, on Sep 10 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

Reuters needs to do its homework. CIS is a front organization for the virulent, anti-immigration movement.
Actually, it isn't a Reuters article. It's a CIS press release -- note "/PRNewswire-USNewswire/" in the dateline.

#109 Spectacles

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:28 AM

View PostDev F, on Sep 10 2009, 12:26 PM, said:

View PostSpectacles, on Sep 10 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

Reuters needs to do its homework. CIS is a front organization for the virulent, anti-immigration movement.
Actually, it isn't a Reuters article. It's a CIS press release -- note "/PRNewswire-USNewswire/" in the dateline.

Ah! I wondered why it looked so odd. Thanks. Those guys are good. ;)
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#110 Drew

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:32 AM

^ But is it true? Is there a provision in the bill that would ensure illegal immigrants wouldn't be covered? (Let's ignore, for the moment, that the President is still talking about a "plan" that doesn't really exist.)
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#111 Nick

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:34 AM

View PostDrew, on Sep 10 2009, 12:00 PM, said:

View PostBklnScott, on Sep 10 2009, 10:58 AM, said:

reuters said:

the bill states
that illegal immigrants are not eligible for the new taxpayer-funded
affordability credits

Nice (purposefully misleading and dishonest) chop-job. Here's the whole quote:

Reuters said:

As President Obama addresses the nation on health care reform, a new analysis by the Center for Immigration Studies estimates that 6.6 million uninsured illegal immigrants could receive benefits under the House health reform bill (H.R. 3200). While the bill states that illegal immigrants are not eligible for the new taxpayer-funded affordability credits, there is nothing in the bill to enforce this provision. Congress defeated efforts to require the use of the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) program. More than 70 other programs of this kind use SAVE.

You just accused someone else of getting personal, now you call someone purposefully misleading and dishonest?

From HR 3200 itself:

Quote

SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.
Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

Quote

Subtitle E—Governance

SEC. 141. HEALTH CHOICES ADMINISTRATION; HEALTH CHOICES COMMISSIONER.

(a) IN GENERAL.—There is hereby established, as an independent agency in the executive branch of the Government, a Health Choices Administration (in this division referred to as the ‘‘Administration’’).
(b) COMMISSIONER.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—The Administration shall be headed by a Health Choices Commissioner (in this division referred to as the ‘‘Commissioner’’) who shall be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate.

. . .

SEC. 142. DUTIES AND AUTHORITY OF COMMISSIONER.
(a) DUTIES.—The Commissioner is responsible for carrying out the following functions under this division:

. . .

(3) INDIVIDUAL AFFORDABILITY CREDITS.— The administration of individual affordability credits under subtitle C of title II, including determination of eligibility for such credits.

In short, the bill unambigously states that illegal immigrants are not to get subsidized coverage, however it does not require a specific means to verify eligibility--that is to be determined upon implementation by the Health Choices Commissioner--who is still bound by law to decline illegal immigrants credits.

The Center for Immigration Studies is reaching.

#112 Spectacles

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:36 AM

http://prescriptions...re-legislation/
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#113 Balderdash

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:59 AM

View PostSparkyCola, on Sep 10 2009, 09:12 AM, said:

Please keep this on topic people. Post not poster. If you think someone is being unreasonable, maybe you just need to dig a little deeper for the reasoning behind the comment - it won't help anything to just dismiss someone's views out of hand because you don't understand where they are coming from.

Sparky


I never took it off topic.  How can you ask a poster something if it is about how the poster is doing what they are doing without directly asking the poster.  Post not poster is not always possible and it's not always wrong.  It's not always something that a person needs to be warned about or even nudged about or called on the carpet like a bad child.  I haven't done anything wrong.

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#114 Omega

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 12:02 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Sep 10 2009, 04:12 PM, said:

Please keep this on topic people. Post not poster. If you think someone is being unreasonable, maybe you just need to dig a little deeper for the reasoning behind the comment - it won't help anything to just dismiss someone's views out of hand because you don't understand where they are coming from.

Sparky

Repeating for emphasis.  If you think a post doesn't contribute to the conversation at hand, responding to it saying so is the last thing you should do.  All that's going to do is make things spiral.  Making vague statements that imply things which you know will upset people is also not productive conversation.

#115 Drew

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 12:10 PM

View PostNick, on Sep 10 2009, 11:34 AM, said:

You just accused someone else of getting personal, now you call someone purposefully misleading and dishonest?

If you think those are the same things, then go whine to Scott about it. He's a moderator. Let him ban me.

It won't affect our relationship one bit, I assure you. :cool:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#116 Bad Wolf

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 12:17 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Sep 10 2009, 09:36 AM, said:


Clear as mud.  (Not a comment at you Specs, just an observation about how murky this all remains).

Edited by Bad Wolf, 10 September 2009 - 12:22 PM.

Posted Image

#117 Omega

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 12:20 PM

/images/Stop.png


If you want to address another poster's style, do it in PM.  Leave it out of the thread.


Issued by Omega

Let's discuss the topic, people.  The back-and-forth is not helpful.

#118 Vapor Trails

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 04:35 PM

View PostOmega, on Sep 10 2009, 12:20 PM, said:

/images/Stop.png

Omega


Issued by
If you want to address another poster's style, do it in PM.  Leave it out of the thread.


Let's discuss the topic, people.  The back-and-forth is not helpful.

Or don't. Some people just aren't able to communicate with each other, no matter what-in ANY fashion. Sometimes, it isn't worth having a discussion-and in some instances it's just best to walk away from a thread and not come back.
Posted Image

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