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Health Care 2009

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#21 Bad Wolf

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 04:50 PM

I vote for the president based on platform and I do not apologize for that.  

I have pointed out time and time again that the issue is ACCESS and rather than address that very pertinent issue you go off on tangents based on political editorials without bothering to inform yourself of the facts and then you attack me because I have the gall to look beyond the popularity contest and vote on actual issues. I find your conduct in this discussion to be offensive.
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#22 Palisades

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 05:01 PM

^ You said nothing about access until after I had posted the op-ed. All you did in your first post was trumpet the survey ranking and post a snide remark.
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"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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#23 Bad Wolf

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 05:04 PM

Oh GIVE ME A BREAK PALISADE!  I said PLENTY about access in the speech thread and you know it (in fact you responded to it).  You know very well that access is my biggest concern so please dispense with the disengenous claim that you didn't know that was my issue.  YES the video is snide.  IT SHOULD BE.  THE US SHOULD AND CAN DO BETTER AND I'M APPALLED AT THE RABID OPPOSITION TO IT.
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#24 SparkyCola

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 05:12 PM

Ok enough.

/images/Stop.png

Think before you post


Issued by Sparky

I mean it. The personal remarks, the all-caps SHOUTING, the snide implications. Palisade, Lil, back off from this thread if need be. Palisade- please don't make such implications about another poster. It is uncivil and I don't think you would like it if someone said the same thing to you:

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Nah, you'll vote for Obama; all the while saying how much you hate it.

That doesn't contribute to this topic at all, it's just a "zinger" aimed personally, and rudely, at Lil.

Meanwhile: Lil, please don't use Caps, on the internet it's shouting and if you get to a point in a conversation where you're shouting, you should back out of it and calm down. It's impossible to have a reasonable conversation if someone is yelling.

Just remember the ideal of discourse- stating your views, and if you are interested in someone else's views, thinking carefully about them and either a) asking for more information or b) responding with why you agree/disagree. That's how it is meant to work. I know it's an emotive topic, but please try and stay calm and civil, it would be greatly appreciated.

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#25 Palisades

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 05:39 PM

View PostBad Wolf, on Sep 15 2009, 04:04 PM, said:

Oh GIVE ME A BREAK PALISADE!  I said PLENTY about access in the speech thread and you know it (in fact you responded to it).  You know very well that access is my biggest concern so please dispense with the disengenous claim that you didn't know that was my issue.  YES the video is snide.  IT SHOULD BE.  THE US SHOULD AND CAN DO BETTER AND I'M APPALLED AT THE RABID OPPOSITION TO IT.

Yeah, well, strangely when I saw this survey trumpeted yet again, I interpreted it in the context of how it's generally trumpeted; "Ha! Look! See! Ya'gods what an awful health care system the U.S. has." If you wanted to make a comment about access, it would have been helpful to say something about access rather than just making a comment about the French that referenced the Freedom Fries incident.
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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#26 Bad Wolf

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 05:42 PM

And you should stop acting as if you don't know what my issues with health care as.  I assume you possess the mental acuity to see that my bad attitude about all this is the result of my issues with access and my issues with you feigning ignorance of something you can't possibly be ignorant of.
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#27 Palisades

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 05:53 PM

^ I pretty much posted reflexively when I saw the WHO study pop up yet again.
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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#28 Bad Wolf

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 05:57 PM

Yes.  You did.
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#29 Nonny

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 06:25 PM

View PostPalisade, on Sep 15 2009, 03:39 PM, said:

If you wanted to make a comment about access, it would have been helpful to say something about access rather than just making a comment about the French that referenced the Freedom Fries incident.
It's not as if we're limited to the number of comments we may post.  I found the Freedom fries allusion helpful and to the point.
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#30 Bad Wolf

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 07:04 PM

View PostNonny, on Sep 15 2009, 04:25 PM, said:

View PostPalisade, on Sep 15 2009, 03:39 PM, said:

If you wanted to make a comment about access, it would have been helpful to say something about access rather than just making a comment about the French that referenced the Freedom Fries incident.
It's not as if we're limited to the number of comments we may post.  I found the Freedom fries allusion helpful and to the point.

It was also quite deliberate.  I absolutely AM commenting on the irony, indeed the hypocricy, of America accusing France of wrongdoing vis a vis war when it's so bad about making healthcare ACCESSIBLE to its own citizens.

Edited by Bad Wolf, 15 September 2009 - 07:04 PM.

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#31 Nonny

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 07:57 PM

View PostBad Wolf, on Sep 15 2009, 05:04 PM, said:

View PostNonny, on Sep 15 2009, 04:25 PM, said:

View PostPalisade, on Sep 15 2009, 03:39 PM, said:

If you wanted to make a comment about access, it would have been helpful to say something about access rather than just making a comment about the French that referenced the Freedom Fries incident.
It's not as if we're limited to the number of comments we may post.  I found the Freedom fries allusion helpful and to the point.

It was also quite deliberate.  I absolutely AM commenting on the irony, indeed the hypocricy, of America accusing France of wrongdoing vis a vis war when it's so bad about making healthcare ACCESSIBLE to its own citizens.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#32 Palisades

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 06:42 PM

View PostBad Wolf, on Sep 15 2009, 06:04 PM, said:

View PostNonny, on Sep 15 2009, 04:25 PM, said:

View PostPalisade, on Sep 15 2009, 03:39 PM, said:

If you wanted to make a comment about access, it would have been helpful to say something about access rather than just making a comment about the French that referenced the Freedom Fries incident.
It's not as if we're limited to the number of comments we may post.  I found the Freedom fries allusion helpful and to the point.

It was also quite deliberate.  I absolutely AM commenting on the irony, indeed the hypocricy, of America accusing France of wrongdoing vis a vis war when it's so bad about making healthcare ACCESSIBLE to its own citizens.

Actually, looking at the critique to which Scherzo linked, to the extent that the study measures access at all, it measures uniformity of access to a much greater extent than it measures access itself. Continue touting the results of this study if you wish, but be aware that it ranked Colombia ahead of Sweden, Germany, Israel, Canada, Finland, and Denmark. And, yes, as simplistic as it may be, a full 25% of the score is based on disability-adjusted life expectancy. 12.5% is 'responsiveness,' and the other 62.5% comes from three measures of uniformity. A country would do better in those three measures if things are uniformly awful for everyone than if things ranged from excellent to mediocre. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were aware of the problems with the study since you purport to "inform yourself of the facts" (before posting a viral video), unlike those of us who note absurdities in the rankings and post an op-ed that briefly outlines how those absurdities arose.

Edit: spelling

Edited by Palisade, 16 September 2009 - 09:02 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#33 Bad Wolf

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 11:14 PM

Palisade have you TRULY not been paying attention to what I've been saying?  Uniformity of access is PRECISELY the problem.  And if you look at the study you'll see that when they are discussing mortality they are talking about it in ways that specifically link to healthcare.  Things like infant mortality.  And I know it ranked Colombia high.  That astounds me.  But rather than simply refuse to entertain the idea that even in a country like Colombia there is more fairness in access to health care than here, I'm simply astounded.  I mean, it's not a valid counter argument to say "you don't seriously think Colombia has better health care", then quote a clearly partisan op ed as a factual source, then tout the fact that people seek medical care in this country as counter arguments to the idea that the US ranks so low in the area of access.  You can say "no it doesn't" until you are blue in the face, but that is not a logical counter argument.
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#34 Palisades

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 12:39 AM

^ AFAIK, infant mortality was not a component that went into the rankings. The WHO only computed the rankings you're talking about in the thread title in 2000 and then stopped. In 2000, they used life expectancy and 'responsiveness' plus three measures of uniformity to determine the ranking that placed the U.S. 37th.

And no, uniformity of access is not the problem. You're assuming that when things are uniform, they'll be uniformly good for everyone. That isn't necessarily the case. They could be uniformly bare bones for everyone. The 2000 rankings simply aren't measuring what you think they're measuring.
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#35 Bad Wolf

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 11:07 AM

Go to the link I posted and search for "infant".  You might also want to look for deaths occurring do to complications resulting from lack of or insufficient prenatal care.  

Look at the report instead of relying on blogs.
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#36 Palisades

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 12:15 PM

View PostBad Wolf, on Sep 17 2009, 10:07 AM, said:

Go to the link I posted and search for "infant".  You might also want to look for deaths occurring do to complications resulting from lack of or insufficient prenatal care.  

Look at the report instead of relying on blogs.

You posted the link to the 2008 report, which is not the one the rankings are from. As I said, they stopped the rankings in 2000. If you look at the 2000 report, WHO openly says multiple times that their measure of health was disability-adjusted life expectancy.
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#37 Bad Wolf

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 03:07 PM

Oddly enough, if you go to the 2000 report, search either natal or infant you will find them.  

On your issue of uniformity I have some questions.


Do you believe that the quality of medical care a person receives should depend on their income?  If so, why?  If a person is poor don't they deserve to have the same chance at health than a person who is rich?  If you don't think this then why?  Isn't uniformity of access just another way of saying equal access?  What's wrong with equal access?  The Constitution guarantees equal protection under the law.  What's wrong with applying that principal to the idea of healthcare?
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#38 Omega

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 03:40 PM

View PostBad Wolf, on Sep 17 2009, 08:07 PM, said:

Do you believe that the quality of medical care a person receives should depend on their income?  If so, why?  If a person is poor don't they deserve to have the same chance at health than a person who is rich?  If you don't think this then why?  Isn't uniformity of access just another way of saying equal access?  What's wrong with equal access?  The Constitution guarantees equal protection under the law.  What's wrong with applying that principal to the idea of healthcare?

You didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyway.  There are a few issues intertwined in that comment.

There is nothing inherently wrong with uniformity and equal access to health care.  What's wrong is defining those to be your goal, without further criteria.  A culture with no health care at all meets those standards better than any health care system ever imagined.  Measuring uniformity alone tells you nothing about whether anyone is actually receiving care, which would seem to be a much more interesting factor.

As for whether the quality of medical care should depend on income, I respond, why shouldn't it?  You're phrasing things in terms of what is deserved.  In the hypothetical world where someone with low income can get health care without paying for it, what about the people who are paying for it?  Don't they deserve the resources they earned?  That's the problem with phrasing things in terms of what is deserved.  How do you define what "should be"?  And what makes you think your definition matters?  The world is a cold, cruel, sucky place, and it's trying to kill you.  We can change that to some degree, but we are bounded by the unchangeable factors of limited resources and human nature.

And your comparison of equal protection under the law to equal access to health care is problematic.  Health care expends resources, which are inherently finite.  Equal protection under the law does not.

#39 Palisades

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 04:53 PM

View PostBad Wolf, on Sep 17 2009, 02:07 PM, said:

Oddly enough, if you go to the 2000 report, search either natal or infant you will find them.
That's nice. It's not a component in the rankings though. The closest thing is 'equity of child survival time.' I used to shop at Wal-Mart before I got sick of it. A high portion of the people there stuffed their carts full of potato chips, hot dogs, and sweets and were seen with fat children in tow. I'm willing to bet that those children will have shortened life expectancies thanks to their diet growing up. 25% of the score is determined by 'fairness' of health distribution among the population, and a large portion of that health distribution may have nothing to do with the health system.

With regard to how health attainment was ranked, the text of the report is clear enough on the matter, but if there's any doubt, go to the appendices. For example, the table on p. 176 (p. 185 of the pdf file) says "Annex Table 5 Health attainment, level and distribution in all Member States, estimates for 1997 and 1999." And if we look at "Level" the table helpfully says that "Level" is "Disability-adjusted life expectancy (years)."

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On your issue of uniformity I have some questions.
It's not my 'issue.' I was trying to tell you the components of the score used by WHO to determine that Colombia has a better health care system than we do. It's WHO's issue, not mine. I'm not the one who came up with their methodology.

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Do you believe that the quality of medical care a person receives should depend on their income?
I'm not getting into it, and that's not even what's measured in the study. It's measuring the uniformity of the percentage of household income that's spent on healthcare. The only part of the study that's actually measuring the quality of the medical system is 'responsiveness level' (12.5% of the final score), in which the U.S. finished first. This table is on p. 184. The table also lists the U.S. as tied for third in 'responsiveness distribution' behind the United Arab Emirates and Bulgaria. On p. 147, we see that 'responsiveness distribution' is distribution of responsiveness among disadvantaged groups, including the poor.

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The Constitution guarantees equal protection under the law.  What's wrong with applying that principal to the idea of healthcare?
The law isn't discriminating with regard to how the state provides health care benefits. If you think you have a case though, why don't you sue for socialized medicine in the Courts? You're a lawyer after all, and you claim to be aggrieved. And there are probably plenty of advocacy groups who would be willing to help fund your legal expenses, if they thought this gambit had a shot at success.

Edited by Palisade, 17 September 2009 - 04:58 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#40 Spectacles

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 05:43 PM

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Omega: As for whether the quality of medical care should depend on income, I respond, why shouldn't it? You're phrasing things in terms of what is deserved. In the hypothetical world where someone with low income can get health care without paying for it, what about the people who are paying for it? Don't they deserve the resources they earned? That's the problem with phrasing things in terms of what is deserved. How do you define what "should be"? And what makes you think your definition matters? The world is a cold, cruel, sucky place, and it's trying to kill you. We can change that to some degree, but we are bounded by the unchangeable factors of limited resources and human nature.


True that's all a matter of national priorities. As Obama said at the end of his address to Congress on health care, it's a question of how we define our national character. But accessible and affordable and reliable health care for all is not just a matter of people picking up the tab for low-income people. That oversimplifies and distorts the issue. The issue is that even people of moderate incomes are finding insurance increasingly unaffordable. Furthermore, even people who are insured are not assured that their policies will be honored if they get sick. Or they have been able to afford only bare-bones insurance.



http://www.cbsnews.c...in5064981.shtml

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CBS)  You may think personal bankruptcies are the result of job loss or wild credit card spending.

But a new study published in The American Journal of Medicine says the biggest reason for going into bankruptcy is medical debt.

Early Show national correspondent Hattie Kauffman reports the study says getting sick is a factor in 62 percent of personal bankruptcies -- an increase from just eight percent in 1981.

And among those who filed for bankruptcy, 75 percent reported having some type of medical insurance. But The Washington Post says people in bankruptcy with insurance were nearly $18,000 in the red. And those without insurance had an average of almost $27,000 in medical debt.

Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius pointed out on The Early Show Friday that many Americans who have health insurance have inadequate protection, and increasing out-of-pocket expenses are "crushing families and businesses."

The cold, cruel world doesn't respond well to libertarians' child-like faith in the free market as some sort of fair and moral force. (And they will always argue, like Stossel, that it would be fair and moral if only government wouldn't try to regulate it.)

These kinds of philosophical discussions are interesting, but the facts remain that all of us, regardless of income, are on shaky ground with insurance as it is currently constructed. This has to change.

Edited by Spectacles, 17 September 2009 - 06:08 PM.

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