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American Presidents 2003

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#21 the 'Hawk

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 11:29 AM

Jid, on Jul 28 2003, 12:24 PM, said:

Gotta love a man who can almost single handedly take Canada from a 11 billion dollar foreign debt to a couple hundred billion, I guess :unsure:  (Though Mulroney didn't exactly do a better job after he was gone)
Yeah, but he did it with style. Mulroney lacked style. ;)

Not to mention that as much as I love Mulroney :barf: at least the GST is a fair tax, as compared to Trudeau's waffling on wage and price controls, or Chretien's continued and baffling waffling (say that ten times fast) over repealing the GST---- a promise of his dating back TEN years now.

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Trudeau's only real legacy was the huge constitutional changes way back when. 

Indeed.... and that's not enough, because....?

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I'd cast my vote with Lester B. Pearson myself.  For all the things prolog said.  In terms of accomplishments provided by a government while under a single leader, I'd say he is head and shoulders above the rest.

I don't know about Pearson. I mean, I do admire him considerably --of that there is no question. He was like the Picard of Canada. But at the same time, healthcare isn't everything. I personally would put Trudeau over Pearson because while Pearson did a superlative job within the framework, Trudeau took the first steps towards making that framework our own. Plus, I honestly doubt that Pearson could've weathered the hellstorm of Quebec separatism, from Laporte and Cross to Levesque and back.

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I'd give the Dief a big ol' raspberry for cancelling the Arrow

As much as I love the old girl, the big white bird was a flying white elephant.

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and as for Mulroney being dead last....  do the names "Joe who?" and "Kim Campbell" ring any bells?  I'd rank them below Brian ;)

There were *far* worse than Mulroney in terms of scandal --I mean, Sir John A. himself resigned due to scandal on the CPR. Not to mention that Robert Borden and Chretien and quite a few other Canadian PMs from both parties haven't exactly been scandal-free. (And let's not forget sheer incompetence and inability to do anything effective, in which case R. B. Bennett holds quite a low spot in our country's history on both counts....)

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#22 the 'Hawk

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 11:42 AM

Sorry, Prolog-- I seem to have missed your post. Hope you don't mind me goin' backwards....

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Wafflin' Wilfrid Laurier was a good prime minister, but I don't know if I'd put him as the greatest.

I have *problems* with Laurier, don't get me wrong, ESPECIALLY over the Boer War. But at the same time, Canada didn't have sovereignty over its foreign policy until 1931. So his hands were tied. However, he wasn't exactly aces, either.

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As for King, what about the "Conscription if Necessary, but not necessarily conscription" deal?  The inability to take a stand and not apologize?

The first rule of politics is to never take a stand you can't weasel out of. King and FDR had a lot in common on that front.... but that's another story. ;)

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Trudeau?  The same one that plunged the country into deficit and debt?  In 1984, before the reigns were handed over to Turner (?), the debt was $128 billion, the deficit $25 billion - before he took office in his first term, there was $11 billion in debt, no deficit.

You'll forgive me if I consider debt and deficit to be a relatively minor concern, especially considering what Trudeau was faced with. I mean, I realize the import of business concerns and whatever, but the same rationale people use to justify Bush's deficit could apply to Trudeau just as readily --he was suffering from economic woes beyond his ability to control, and made the best of a bad situation by doing what he could. (I can be sneaky, eh? ;) )

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He also served to further western alienation. 

Whiny Alberta brats. They've been going on and on since before the thirties and they still haven't put their best foot forward. Trudeau focused his attention on his home province with good reason --not only did he realize that Alberta is full of oil (and thus, hot air) but that Quebec is by FAR a greater political powderkeg waiting to go off. I'm no Trudeau apologist for the War Measures Act or the 1980 referendum, but I do honestly believe that there was no other federal politician who was capable of navigating those waters as effectively as he did, plain and simple. Was he perfect? Of course not. But he did a better job than the other guy may have.

And say what you will about Trudeau, but he could delegate well. (Okay, except for that White Paper business. That was just a stupid idea all around.)

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I'll grant that he had a vision and had the balls to stick with it, and a number of good things came from his time in office (the charter, particularly), but unlike you, I have doubt in my mind. ;)

To the contrary, my dear prolog. The doubt is most certainly there. It's just that, for me, a mostly-unified country under a mostly-patriated constitution trumps everything.

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And yeah, Mulroney's at the bottom of the heap.  I can't believe that rat bastard got the Order of Canada.

The Order of Canada is no prize.... if anything, I could give you a good sized rant about the Order of Canada and how it only perpetuates the nonsense that is the Office of the Governor General ---of all the useless institutions in Canada.... must--- resist-- urge-- to rant!

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If it weren't for that idiot RCMP officer blabbing about the case in public, Mulroney likely would have been charged in the airbus scandal...

Airbus was, really, small potatoes made big for the time because it was "that rat bastard". I mean, Chretien lends Sheila Copps bus fare and it's a bigger scandal ;) Okay, not really. But you know what I mean.

Not to mention-- you're right. Mulroney should be in jail, as far as I'm concerned.

:cool:
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#23 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 01:49 PM

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Lil: While that may well have been the attitude of the political leaders of the Soviet Union, the Sovet General Staff was frequently quite convinced that they could win a pre-emptive nuclear attack. They may have been right.

Their estimates were totally off track then.  The Soviets were at a serious nuclear disparity compared to the United States at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis.  They had only a handful of ICBM deployed (exact number slips my mind but less than 50) but not a sufficient number to totally knock out the United States.  They could have done a lot of damage but considering those old weapons and the reliability of them it wasn’t enough for a killing blow.  Their bomber fleet was significantly smaller than that of the United States and far less capable.  In addition the air defenses of the United States would have had a ball with them.  Their submarine force at the time was at sea but none of them were carrying nuclear-armed missiles but rather conventional warheads.  They had some at sea with nuclear torpedoes but those are rather dubious weapons for attacking targets ashore.  

The real kicker was that the missiles based in Cuba were well within the intercept capability of the Nike-Hercules batteries that were deployed in Florida.  The Nike-Herc batteries with conventional warheads could have killed them and the nuclear-armed ones would have easily brought them down.  So the Soviets were playing with the capability to bloody up the United States badly and devastate Western Europe.  The United States on the other hand had the capability to utterly annihilate the Soviet Union.  It was still a few years away from this disparity going away and some sort of full MAD scenarios settling in.          

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Hawk: Three words: Pierre Elliott Trudeau. 'Nuff said.

You live dangerously Hawk…  You bait mystic and I both in the same thread…. :p


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Hawk: Whiny Alberta brats.

I happen to rather like some Albertans. :p ;)  Yep you are so cooked by her. :D
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#24 the 'Hawk

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 01:56 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Jul 28 2003, 10:39 PM, said:

You live dangerously Hawk…  You bait mystic and I both in the same thread….
The only way to fly! :lol:

Who else can I bait.... hmmm....

I know!

My grandmother can beat up John McCain! ;)

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#25 eryn

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 03:40 PM

Geez Hawk, know how to get my attention dont you?. :p

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Hawk wrote: ^ What are you on about? Three words: Pierre Elliott Trudeau. 'Nuff said

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Hawk wrote: Whiny Alberta brats. They've been going on and on since before the thirties and they still haven't put their best foot forward.

:blink:

First of all… ow. :p

Secondly, you’re from Central Canuckistan aren’t you?? ;)

Hawk, if you were to live western alienation you’d see what the “whining” is all about. The National Energy Program summarily sucked billions of dollars out of Alberta and out into the federal governments pocket to pay for their various socialist programs. (For people who have no idea what the NEP is:) The NEP was an intricate set of economic measures which kept the domestic price of oil below the world price. It was intended to protect Canadian consumers and the manufacturing centre in Central Canada from the high-energy prices of the early 80's. But most Westerners saw it as a grab for power and money, and federal government was looked at as trying to reassert their authority over the provincial government. The feds encouraged resource exploration in regions such as the Beaufort Sea by giving out special grants. The overall effect was to bring activity in Alberta to a halt as Western Canada became a less attractive place to invest and Provincial revenue was taken east. The NEP protected eastern consumers at the expense of western producers.

There was also Trudeau’s message to Alberta wheat farmers when they asked for help from the federal government. “'Why should I sell your wheat??”. He just didn’t like the West and frankly the West hated him right back.

Trudeau was greatly responsible (not totally mind you, a split has always existed here) for the divide that exists between the East and the West. The mistrust is still obviously here and it’s doubtful it’ll go away anytime soon. I mean look at Hawk, he calls us Albertans whiney Albertan brats just like we call Central Canadians federal lackeys. ;) (The insults just degenerate from there but I wont mention those ones. :cool:)

But I do have to agree with Hawk about the Order of Canada. ;)

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[prolog wrote: That's why, for all his faults, I have nothing but respect for Chretien regarding his views on 9/11 (see his CBC interview from about eight months ago (?)) and his government's refusal to join the US-led war against Iraq.

...I’ll just bite my tongue else I get myself into trouble. ;)

*mutters something about Chretien and his damned legacy* :p

(Insert more Albertan “whining” here)

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CJ wrote: I happen to rather like some Albertans.   Yep you are so cooked by her.  

Awww, and some of us Albertans like you Yankees too. ;)

mystic

Edited by mystic, 29 July 2003 - 04:02 PM.

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#26 the Pill

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 06:47 PM

William Henry Harrison.

#27 prolog

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:25 AM

Mystic: I don't like Chretien - hell, I'm very not fond of him - but I'll at least credit him for taking a stand on national TV on the subject.  But yeah, with regards to his damned "legacy", he should have stepped down ages ago.

Hawk: Comments like that make me question why Canada should remain intact.  Seriously.  I'm not from Alberta (born in BC, raised in SK), so it's not like it's your comment that rankled me, it's the attitude.  The point of a federal government should be to ensure that the interests of all areas of the country are considered in decisions.  Canada was, let's be honest, cobbled together at confederation.  Even today, it can be seen as a division of regions: the west, Ontario, Quebec, and the Maritimes.

I want to see Kyoto ratified, but I can see why Alberta was so pissed off: Chretien agreed and promised ratification without considering the ramifications of doing so.  Alberta's got a strong vested interest in oil, and to just summarily say, "okay, change it, or we'll hit you with fines so hard you'll sh*t bricks," is callous and inconsiderate.  Who do you think's going to absorb the cost?  The corporations?  BS.  As always, these sorts of things would be passed on to consumers.  We already pay a huge amount of money on heating bills in the winter - the result of fines and levies would be such that many families might be unable to pay heating costs due to the federal government.  That's downright criminal.

Part of the reason the west feels so much resentment is that in national elections, the west and the maritimes are irrelevant.  To win, you need Ontario, a bit of Quebec, and a few seats here and there.  The west (BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, for those not familiar with the term) has 88 seats total, a mere 13 more than Quebec.  The population of the west is about 9 million, compared to 7.4 in Quebec.  But the numbers would suggest seats roughly in line with population, you say!  What's wrong with that?  Well, considering that the maritimes have roughly 2.2 million people, and 27 seats, it would seem that's not the case elsewhere.  When one considers that the west and the Maritimes are largely irrelevant in electing a government, one can perhaps glimpse why the term "alienation" has been used.

To be fair, the west has always been seen as the bastard child by "upper Canada".  But given that almost a third of the population lives here, and that we sure don't have a third of the seats in parliament, or even much respect from the federal government, perhaps it's understandable that the bastard child is malcontent.

#28 the 'Hawk

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 06:42 AM

mystic, on Jul 29 2003, 12:30 AM, said:

you’re from Central Canuckistan aren’t you?? ;)
Self-Important Canuckistan, to be specific. ;)

(I love laying bait. Seriously, I *love* Alberta with all my heart. Ontario stinks. Just for the record.)

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if you were to live western alienation you’d see what the “whining” is all about. The National Energy Program summarily sucked billions of dollars out of Alberta and out into the federal governments pocket to pay for their various socialist programs.

The NEP did just that, but any source of revenue that the government can exploit is precisely what it'll do. That's why cigarettes are taxed and pot is legalized (and regulated)-- it costs more to legislate against the black market than it does to collect money from fines and taxes.

But I'd rather have the money go to the Crown than some random American corporation ripping the resources out of whatever province you can name-- not just Alberta....

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The overall effect was to bring activity in Alberta to a halt as Western Canada became a less attractive place to invest and Provincial revenue was taken east. The NEP protected eastern consumers at the expense of western producers.

Yeah, but by sheer weight of numbers alone, it was an imperative. Why? Because it's a short drive for the business lobby from Windsor or Toronto or Niagara or Kitchener-Waterloo to Ottawa. From Edmonton it takes a hell of a lot longer.

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There was also Trudeau’s message to Alberta wheat farmers when they asked for help from the federal government. “'Why should I sell your wheat??”. He just didn’t like the West and frankly the West hated him right back.

Please, point out to me someone who Trudeau *did* like, besides himself. ;)

Part of my major criticism of Trudeau is that charisma only gets you so far. What I find disappointing, however, isn't Trudeau. It's the sheer and baffling failure of the Progressive Conservatives to capitalize on his failings in three separate federal elections. The problem with the Canadian system of constitutional monarchy is that it's based on the British system. Look at the size of Britain. Now look at the size of Canada. And tell me how their system works for us. Please, by all means, lay it plain for me.  

The sad part is that federal politicians can simply appease Quebec & Ontario and, by sheer weight of gerrymandering and empty campaign promises, negate the entire Western, Eastern and Northern voting bloc. Perhaps if Toronto was in Nunavut this wouldn't be a problem. But as it stands.... Alberta's outnumbered.

So I completely sympathize with reform, even separatist movements, in the West. They have legitimate grievances and they have a very separate way of doing business. I'd just want them to emphasize reform over separation. I may not be all that pleased with the way this country is run. But I honestly believe it's better off together than apart.

And it disappoints me that Chretien isn't more progressive on this front. It disappoints me even more that Paul Martin isn't going to change anything.

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Trudeau was greatly responsible (not totally mind you, a split has always existed here) for the divide that exists between the East and the West. The mistrust is still obviously here and it’s doubtful it’ll go away anytime soon. I mean look at Hawk, he calls us Albertans whiney Albertan brats just like we call Central Canadians federal lackeys. ;) (The insults just degenerate from there but I wont mention those ones. :cool:)

Oh, I did that entirely in jest. Everyone across the country bitches at the federal government for not addressing their concerns. That's nothing new. Out East they have their pejoratives to throw about, too. The absence of a centralization of populace and of industry makes us highly regionalized --which makes me a strong advocate of limitations of federal power. I think sections 91 and 92 of the BNA act are in desperate need of re-writing: somehow the Constitution is still in the frame of guys who wrote it when everything centered around the St. Lawrence. That's both unfortunate for those who didn't even have a province when it was written, and depressing for those who did but realize that the system is woefully inadequate. There's some serious need for re-writes. But nobody's had the balls to do anything about it, except for Trudeau. That's why I admire him. Unfortunately, it's a short list-- but compare him to Bennett or King or Dief or the other guys we've seen take the PMO for themselves. They don't give a damn about anything but holding onto the PMO.

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But I do have to agree with Hawk about the Order of Canada. ;)

Excellent. And, for the record, yes, I was baiting the Alberta argument-- I was hoping Jid or Kevin would jump on it, but you're just as good, mystic. I hope I didn't seem too disagreeable. (I hope I don't presently seem too Machiavellian, either-- I just love a good argument.) ;)

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#29 the 'Hawk

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 06:42 AM

the Pill, on Jul 29 2003, 03:37 AM, said:

William Henry Harrison.
He died in thirty days!

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#30 Jid

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 06:48 AM

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I was baiting the Alberta argument-- I was hoping Jid or Kevin would jump on it,

No good, I'm not Albertan, I just have to live next to them. (Ew) ;)
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#31 the 'Hawk

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 07:01 AM

prolog, on Jul 29 2003, 01:15 PM, said:

I don't like Chretien - hell, I'm very not fond of him - but I'll at least credit him for taking a stand on national TV on the subject.  But yeah, with regards to his damned "legacy", he should have stepped down ages ago.
To be perfectly honest, I know precisely why Chretien is so obsessed with his bloody 'legacy'.

He hasn't done anything else. ;)

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Comments like that make me question why Canada should remain intact.  Seriously.  I'm not from Alberta (born in BC, raised in SK), so it's not like it's your comment that rankled me, it's the attitude.

What can I say. I played it very Trudeau, didn't I? ;)

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  The point of a federal government should be to ensure that the interests of all areas of the country are considered in decisions. 

But a quick analysis of the system doesn't permit that insurance to be carried out. If anything, a "rep by pop" without an effective regional check (in the form of the tired old and completely useless Senate) is doomed. Which is why I'm a strong advocate of reform. I'm not pleased with a lot of the pearls I see before the swine of the federal government. The sad part is, unless Ontario starts making some noise about its fraternal provinces in the Confederation family being dressed in rags so it can receive a coat of many colours.... well, nothing's going to happen.

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  Canada was, let's be honest, cobbled together at confederation.Even today, it can be seen as a division of regions: the west, Ontario, Quebec, and the Maritimes.

Who gets the lion's share of constitutional attention? Quebec. Who gets the lion's share of federal funding and federal stuff in general? Ontario. Who gets the shaft? Everyone else.

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I want to see Kyoto ratified, but I can see why Alberta was so pissed off: Chretien agreed and promised ratification without considering the ramifications of doing so. 

Not only that, but he did it unilaterally, without even so much as a word about consulting with the nation in general. Yet another kink in the Constitution: the little guy from Shawinigan can screw over folks from Vancouver to St. John's without them having so much as a word in edgewise. How to fix that? Better regional representation. One solution I've heard is a modification of the Cabinet, away from being based around the federal Ministries and instead towards having a Cabinet composed of regional representatives --two from each province, at least-- in order to, if not restrain, then to lend credence to the Government's position on controversial matters like Kyoto.

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Alberta's got a strong vested interest in oil, and to just summarily say, "okay, change it, or we'll hit you with fines so hard you'll sh*t bricks," is callous and inconsiderate.  Who do you think's going to absorb the cost?  The corporations?  BS.

The sad part is, the corporations are already riding sweetheart-deals from the fedgov. So whatever Alberta does to compensate remains Alberta's problem. Same with BC fish or the wheat farmers.

Understand that I'm not entirely certain that I agree with the liberal interpretation of the country's resources being available globally. I think we do ourselves a vast disservice by being so strongly rooted in the export economy. I don't know if it's all it's cracked up to be. Not to imply that Crown-owned industries are any better or worse-- it just seems like an alternative. Again, not a good one. But an alternative.

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As always, these sorts of things would be passed on to consumers.  We already pay a huge amount of money on heating bills in the winter - the result of fines and levies would be such that many families might be unable to pay heating costs due to the federal government.  That's downright criminal.

The sad part is, there's nothing that can be done-- the same families that freeze because they can't cover the bills in Ontario exist in Alberta and Newfoundland and Manitoba and all over. Not to imply that "things are tough all over, so why bother?" or anything of the sort, but rather, if this kind of thing is "criminal" when it occurs in the regional sense, why hasn't anyone done anything to correct it across the board?

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Part of the reason the west feels so much resentment is that in national elections, the west and the maritimes are irrelevant.  To win, you need Ontario, a bit of Quebec, and a few seats here and there.  The west (BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, for those not familiar with the term) has 88 seats total, a mere 13 more than Quebec.  The population of the west is about 9 million, compared to 7.4 in Quebec.  But the numbers would suggest seats roughly in line with population, you say!  What's wrong with that?  Well, considering that the maritimes have roughly 2.2 million people, and 27 seats, it would seem that's not the case elsewhere.  When one considers that the west and the Maritimes are largely irrelevant in electing a government, one can perhaps glimpse why the term "alienation" has been used.

Can't disagree with you here. Quebec's been against a rep-by-pop system since the country began --largely in order to safeguard its language and cultural interests. What no one seems to notice (and I intentionally overlooked) is that each province does, in fact, have its own cultural interests. You just have to look past the Plains of Abraham and realize that *everyone*, not just Quebec, has vested interests that the fedgov does a pisspoor job of helping with, that the fedgov treats on a national level, when there's so little in common that the notion of a "national" level exists mostly on paper, and barely at all in reality.

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To be fair, the west has always been seen as the bastard child by "upper Canada".  But given that almost a third of the population lives here, and that we sure don't have a third of the seats in parliament, or even much respect from the federal government, perhaps it's understandable that the bastard child is malcontent.

It's perfectly understandable-- but the sad part is, all the eggs are in Ontario's basket. Solution? No, don't nuke Ontario. Yet. (Let me get on a plane to Edmonton first. ;) ) But it couldn't hurt to reform the system. And unless that federation-of-provinces reform argument I extend as a sort of solution is taken up as a cause by both Western, Eastern, and Quebecois interest groups, in a coalition.... nothing will change.

And yes, for the record, my earlier argument was *entirely* facetious. I apologize if any offense was construed from those remarks.

:cool:
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#32 the 'Hawk

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 07:02 AM

Jid, on Jul 29 2003, 03:38 PM, said:

No good, I'm not Albertan, I just have to live next to them. (Ew) ;)
Damn. My gambit failed to pay off! Ah well. Where the hell is Kevin, anyway? I miss that guy. ;)

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#33 eryn

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 07:38 AM

I was hoping you were kidding about those comments Hawk, I thought they were a bit out of place coming from you. ;)

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hawk wrote: Please, point out to me someone who Trudeau *did* like, besides himself.

Well he seemed to like Castro well enough… Well that was more of a relationship built out of Trudeau’s desire to peeve off Americans.. ;)

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#34 the 'Hawk

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 07:47 AM

mystic, on Jul 29 2003, 04:28 PM, said:

I was hoping you were kidding about those comments Hawk, I thought they were a bit out of place coming from you. ;)
You know me-- they'll never pin ME down!! NEVAH! Tricky like Nixon, that's the 'hawk for ya! ;)

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Well he seemed to like Castro well enough… Well that was more of a relationship built out of Trudeau’s desire to peeve off Americans.. ;)

Yes, but let's not forget, Americans are peasants to Trudeau. He was the vanguard of this continent's intellectual aristocracy, you know.... those American plebeian slobs with their television and their sporting events.... bah. Trudeau was vastly, vastly superior, a living god among us.... ;)

(Thus, the bait is laid for yet another ambush!) :D

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#35 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 02:51 PM

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Hawk: The only way to fly! :lol:

Until you get nailed by a Nike-Herc with a special warhead. ;)

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Hawk: Ontario stinks.

Speaking as a New Yorker who lives downwind from that schmuck polluting province. :p  You have no idea how bad it stinks or for that matter how much you spread outwards.  The last time I checked the wonderful environmental regulations in Ontario happens to be a major reason why New York is suffering from such an acid rain problem.  Ontario is the third worse polluter in all of North America.  New York has cut our emissions and switched to a higher reliance over the years on our hydroelectric power sources; meanwhile Ontario has just kept building the smoke stacks taller to get the pollution across the border.    

Last I knew New York was actually taking legal action against Ontario through NAFTA for the air pollution.  Then there is the whole way the Canadian Government screwed New York with you illegally subsidized dairy products.  Last I knew there was legal action on the part of New York for that one too.  You know you guys have a great ability to tick off New York as much as you do the Western Provinces.  Look out though New York is bigger (our GSP rivals Canada’s GDP) and meaner then the Western Provinces. ;) :p

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Hawk: I may not be all that pleased with the way this country is run. But I honestly believe it's better off together than apart.

I’m sure the US would be happy to accept the Maritimes and Alberta as new states if they decided to split away. :D  I think BC on the other hand has the viability to make it as its own independent nation.  

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Hawk: As much as I love the old girl, the big white bird was a flying white elephant.

I actually think the Arrow was very fixable and Canada abandoned it after a few minor setbacks.  Their primary no brainer was going straight to production models rather than prototypes to work out the bugs.  The problems with the fighter as far as(and that is very little) I know were not insurmountable but rather expensive.  For a little perspective; the F-14 is consider to be among the best fighters in the world today.  We had every single one of the prototypes crash while it was under development and to boot they had terrible engines to start with.    

That said if Canada had deployed the Arrow they’d still be flying the old clunkers today along with the Sea Kings. :lol:

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prolog: It takes balls to stand up for your views when they differ from your larger, more influential neighbour. That's why, for all his faults, I have nothing but respect for Chretien regarding his views on 9/11 (see his CBC interview from about eight months ago (?)) and his government's refusal to join the US-led war against Iraq.

I’m not as smart as mystic when it comes to keeping quiet. ;)  Chretien did set his legacy in the US for that one the PM who managed to turn relations between the United States and one of her closest allies a tad sour for a little while.    

Canada is free to say what their government wants to say but that doesn’t mean they should expect the US to like it or reward them for it.  Chretien should remember the old saying about biting the hand that feeds you.  I wonder exactly how many of Chretien’s self-proclaimed “successes” would exist if the US wasn’t Canada neighbor?  I wonder how many of his happy socialist programs could be afforded if it was someone a tad disagreeable to the south.   I’m betting not very many of them and that many Canadians in this type of scenario would be hoping for a leader more like Bush than a moron like Chretien.  

Canada’s security is largely covered by having the US sitting directly south and by the sweat of the US military around the world.  Put an Iraq or Iran south of Canada and we’d see just how badly Chretien bit the hand that feeds his “legacy”.  Though I think the ultimate irony would b to put North Korea on their border; I’m sure Comrade Kim should be happy to give lessons in the “joys” of communism.  Canada would actually have to hold up her own side when it came to defense.  I’m betting National Health Care would be the first thing going out the window along with a host of other socialist programs that are adored by the very same liberals who bash the US.

Though I’m sure the Canadian Military as they are could more than handle North Korea.*  The CF-18s could easily control the air and bomb the North Korean Army to pieces while Canadian artillery wreaks havoc on them.  Oh yeah you actually need to buy ordnance for those systems to use on the enemy and that is something Canada doesn’t do.  What I’m attempting to get at is before Chretien goes on his next anti-US kick he should consider just how much of his political “successes” he owes to the fact that the United States is sitting right on the border rather than someone else.    

*The Canadian Military has a lot of spirit and expertise but you actually need to be funded to actually do anything more than they currently do.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#36 Jid

Jid

    Mad Prophet of Funk

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 03:28 PM

Quote

Then there is the whole way the Canadian Government screwed New York with you illegally subsidized dairy products.

All I'll say on this matter is HAH! while I gather my sources...

#37 the Pill

the Pill

    I really need to come here more often.

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 03:37 PM

the'Hawk, on Jul 29 2003, 02:32 PM, said:

the Pill, on Jul 29 2003, 03:37 AM, said:

William Henry Harrison.
He died in thirty days!

:cool:
Yep.  The most effective free government is one that doesn't accomplish anything.  We as Americans have all the freedoms that we could ask for.  Why complicate things with yet another law maker?  The difficulty is when people start splitting hairs on the original Bill of Rights.  

Check it out some time.  

http://www.law.corne...llofrights.html


-the Pill

#38 Kosh

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    Criag Ferguson For President!

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 11:08 PM

Quote

Seriously, I *love* Alberta with all my heart. Ontario stinks. Just for the record.)

Exchange West Virginia for Alberta, and Ontario with Ohio, and you too could be a Hillbilly.

Edited by Kosh, 31 July 2003 - 12:08 AM.

Can't Touch This!!

#39 prolog

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    The Merry Programmer

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Posted 31 July 2003 - 02:59 AM

Aegis: While Alberta would probably happily join the US, a case could be made for a country consisting of BC, AB, SK, and MN.  9 million people is small, but still larger than Sweden and Finland, and a West Canada hockey team could still compete with the best in the world. ;)

(all that said, I'd like it if Canada could stick together, at least for a while longer)



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