Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

New York opens 1st public school for gay students

LGBT Education

  • Please log in to reply
114 replies to this topic

#41 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 11:28 AM

I can't even wrap my mind around the concept of comparing sexuality to a hobby or a field of study.

:blink:  :eek2:  :blink:
Posted Image

#42 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 11:31 AM

Oh and a question for those who think that a good motivation for this idea is to provide a "safe" haven for gay students, do you *really* think that the school won't be targetted?

Hey let's just paint a big red bulls eye on it.  Oh look, it's a whole BUNCH of them all in one place.  It's actually making it *easier* for people who'd do violence against gays.

It's a bad idea.

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 29 July 2003 - 11:39 AM.

Posted Image

#43 Josh

Josh

    He stares...

  • Islander
  • 13,774 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 11:35 AM

^

I agree. Plus, it's just planting one gigantic label on them as well...

"What school? Oh, it's a GAY school."

Although I guess I'm just a bad representation of the gay community in general. I don't want to be labeled as "gay." I would rather be labeled as "human."
"THE UNICORNS ARE NOT TO BE TRIFLED WITH!" - John Burke.

#44 the 'Hawk

the 'Hawk
  • Islander
  • 5,281 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 11:45 AM

Cardie, I would agree with you if "gay" were on the curriculum.

It's not.

And so a magnet school for queer studies might work. (And yes, I'm using this term in the academic, people-I-know-who-are-gay-use-this-term-to-self-identify, way, NOT the pejorative.) But this isn't about academics at all. This school is a bomb shelter for these kids. Nothing more.

As I said before, as Lil said-- bull's-eye.

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#45 DWF

DWF

    Dr. Who 1963-89, 1996, 2005-

  • Islander
  • 48,287 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 12:00 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jul 28 2003, 08:21 PM, said:

Oh and a question for those who think that a good motivation for this idea is to provide a "safe" haven for gay students, do you *really* think that the school won't be targetted?

Hey let's just paint a big red bulls eye on it.  Oh look, it's a whole BUNCH of them all in one place.  It's actually making it *easier* for people who'd do violence against gays.

It's a bad idea.
I was going to mention that, this is one the main reasons why, this is a bad idea for me. And I really don't see, what this school could teach a child, that they couldn't learn in a regular school.  :unsure:  :(
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#46 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 01:06 PM

Another bit of backwards logic coming out of wonderful NYC. ;)  Honestly only that part of the state is off the deep end that far.  An interesting note is I don’t see any mention of Albany providing funding for it or any suggestion what the reaction has been there.  For that matter how the NYS Board of Regents views it.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#47 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:29 PM

Well, now that it's supposedly just fine for colleges to determine student acceptance based on race, basing it on sexuality isn't going to be far behind, and we all know which kind they'd favor... so just wait until a straight kid wants to enroll at this school just for the college-entrance advantage, and dates opposite-sex significant others from outside the school and such... like that Jew in the Catholic school in "School Ties".

#48 schoolpsycho

schoolpsycho
  • Islander
  • 893 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 04:41 PM

Hello again.

I see nothing wrong if these kids go to the school.

There are many different schools for boys. girls, religions, men, women, and, yes, color. The issue for me is choice.

These kids are now given a choice, or their parents are, of putting their kids in a school where they will be accepted for who they are.

Yes, segregation is an issue. But, I'm comfortable with the fact that if some choose to go where there are others like them, then why not?

I went to a handicapped school when I was little. And when I left, I didn't feel different.

When I stepped on the parking lot on a regular school, I did. Of course, it was obvious, I just didn't feel it until then. I miss my school now, a lot more than I thought I would.

These kids now have the opporunity to feel like they're just like everyone else. Because they know they might not be treated that way anywhere else.

sp
Love is hard...and all there is.

#49 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 04:53 PM

This feels like old times.;)

Quote

I see nothing wrong if these kids go to the school.

I have a big problem with the State sponsoring a segregated school.  Homosexuality is not a physical disability.  Or it damned well should not be treated as one.

Quote

There are many different schools for boys. girls, religions, men, women, and, yes, color. The issue for me is choice.

The issue for me is state sponsored segregation and the added danger of painting a big bright target for hate groups.

Quote

These kids are now given a choice, or their parents are, of putting their kids in a school where they will be accepted for who they are.

Accepted for who they are or separated from "normal" kids because you know, there's something wrong with them?

I understand the value of support groups and the like.  But promotion of separatism is not the answer (imo of course).

Quote

Yes, segregation is an issue. But, I'm comfortable with the fact that if some choose to go where there are others like them, then why not?

Because it's state sponsored.  If the state has the power to cull out students based on sexuality what's next?  Gold stars for Jews?

Quote

I went to a handicapped school when I was little. And when I left, I didn't feel different.

In my view homosexuality is not a physical handicap.  Accordingly, I don't agree with your comparison.  The ADA requires reasonable accomadations for disabled people.

The only way to compare a handicapped school with this issue is to say that homosexuality is a physical handicap.

I cannot agree with that proposition.

Again, my view.



Quote

These kids now have the opporunity to feel like they're just like everyone else. Because they know they might not be treated that way anywhere else.

On the contrary.  They now have the opportunity to hide.  To not face the prejudices that are out there.  To decide to separate themselves from their peers instead of being part of the process that eliminates bigotry based on sexuality.

As stated above, my views.

Lil
Posted Image

#50 schoolpsycho

schoolpsycho
  • Islander
  • 893 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 05:44 PM

This feels like old times. ;)

;)

I have a big problem with the State sponsoring a segregated school. Homosexuality is not a physical disability. Or it damned well should not be treated as one.

However, homophobia is physical and mental danger to the well-being of gays and lesbians everywhere who are taunted, teased, discriminated against, beaten, raped, killed, and left to feel inhuman.

The issue for me is state sponsored segregation and the added danger of painting a big bright target for hate groups.

The hate groups always hate. The kids have targets already. That's the reason why the school was created.

Accepted for who they are or separated from "normal" kids because you know, there's something wrong with them?

Both. Because I've felt both ways.

I understand the value of support groups and the like. But promotion of separatism is not the answer (imo of course).

If they want to go to a regular, "straight" school, they still can. They now have an option they didn't have before. They didn't say, "All gay students must go to this gay school." They say, (imo) "if you are gay, and if you want, you can go to this school." And some said yes. There is a difference.

In my view homosexuality is not a physical handicap. Accordingly, I don't agree with your comparison. The ADA requires reasonable accomadations for disabled people.


The only way to compare a handicapped school with this issue is to say that homosexuality is a physical handicap.

I cannot agree with that proposition.


I didn't say that homosexuality was a disability. I only meant to show how different I felt by others, and how I felt about myself. And still do. At times. The ADA requires, not all comply.

On the contrary. They now have the opportunity to hide. To not face the prejudices that are out there. To decide to separate themselves from their peers instead of being part of the process that eliminates bigotry based on sexuality.

One can never hide from prejudice. Those who experience it will always have it. It's always there. They'll always know. The jokes. The stereotypes. The history. They face it every day. Bravery is not always measured by action, nor cowardice inaction. Maybe they are part of the process. Maybe not. But, they know they never hide, prejudice won't let them. But, you said, "to decide." They've decided what's best for them.

sp
Love is hard...and all there is.

#51 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 05:49 PM

^

And nothing that you've said addresses the issue of State backed segregation.  Or state backed separatism based on sexuality.  Or the dangerous precedent being set.

The socio/cultural issues you raise are valid.

But they miss my point.
Posted Image

#52 schoolpsycho

schoolpsycho
  • Islander
  • 893 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 05:59 PM

^

That's just it, Lil. Everything is about how people hate the state doing this, we gotta pay for that, and on and on.

I know money is important, and we don't want to give it up.

But, people make it sound like it's everything.

I hope it's not.

sp
Love is hard...and all there is.

#53 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 06:03 PM

^

It's not the money.

It's the State ACTION.

It's giving them permission to encourage separation of people based on whatever.  Today it's to allegedly (and I mean allegedly because I foresee very bad things at this public school) promote safety of gays.

Great, what's next?  Yellow stars on Jews?

How about promoting all black schools to prevent racial tension?

To me it's a big picture issue and what I see here is that some well intentioned people with legitimate concerns about hate filled harassment and violence against gays are going off half cocked without thinking it through.

Lil
Posted Image

#54 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 9,215 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 07:18 PM

Someone said something connecting the idea of this school for homosexuals as some how encouraging sexual activity somehow... huh? How does talking/supporting/hiding (whatever we think this school is suppose to do) promote sexual activity? Sexuality, perhaps....  :suspect:  *goes to find the relevant quote*

It was QueenTiye:

Quote

And what happens if a straight student wants to attend? AND - what is this business of kids being allowed to make sexuality a standard for educational choices anyway? Aren't we supposed to be discouraging sexual activity for minors??? (Or is that just my prudishness showing...)

Just because we put a whole group of Homosexuals together does not mean we are purposely encouraging sexual activity, thought it may be easier argueable for them to find boy/girl-friends (even if it doesn't lead to sex). Though, by that arguement, almost all public schools could be considered encouraging sexual activity just by having the two genders together  :p  :D Though you seem to agree with segregation of the genders as well.

Quote

BTW - there used to be a Boys High. Lots of effort went into making it Boys and Girls High... and THAT'S a move I disagree with. How come it's alright to have a Gay High now?

Encouraging discussion on sexuality does not neccessarily encourage sexual activity. Unless you think the gay students are going to think, here its easy to hook up, and we don't need to work about Pregnancy, lets get on with it :p  :) Any discussion should be informative with facts as well anyways.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#55 schoolpsycho

schoolpsycho
  • Islander
  • 893 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 07:28 PM

It's not the money.


It's the State ACTION.


It's giving them permission to encourage separation of people based on whatever. Today it's to allegedly (and I mean allegedly because I foresee very bad things at this public school) promote safety of gays.


Why are they there? Because [b[they[/b] need to feel safe. Of course, there are no safe places anywhere, really. But, compared to where they were, they'd feel safer at this school. They made the choice to go. Because they feel they have no choice but to go. Some are afraid for their lives. They know they may be killed. If this prevents any harm, it had to be considered. It's because of them being harrassed that they felt they needed to be separated. The State has an obligation to provide an education, in a safe environment.

To me it's a big picture issue and what I see here is that some well intentioned people with legitimate concerns about hate filled harassment and violence against gays are going off half cocked without thinking it through.

Maybe. But, I think of all the kids who were murdered and committed suicide because they had to go to a school where they were harassed and nothing was done. How many more kids will be put in a situation where they'll suffer? This isn't a perfect solution, granted. But considering the alternatives they have...

I wish for desegregation and equality like most. But, I also know that those will never fully be unless we protect those who are being harassed. This might blow up, yes. But it might save lives as well. They felt they had to do something. Not perfect, but something.

sp
Love is hard...and all there is.

#56 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 07:44 PM

Quote

They felt they had to do something.

Did they now. So, what *other* measures did they try first?  Did they, for example, come down hard on harassment in the schools?  Did they change school policies to mandate harsher consequences?  What, precisely, did they attempt before they elected to go the "let's get them out of the way" route?

I'll wager it was not a whole lot.

Sorry sp but in my view this is a knee jerk, potentially catastrophic, and completely shortsighted "solution" that these people have come up with.

Lil
Posted Image

#57 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 9,215 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 08:00 PM

^ but, but LIL its  so much   easier just to put them somewhere else, than deal with the   actual problems  :p  ;)  :D

Frankly, its like putting the bullied in other schools, while the Bully has no negative consequences to their behavour, and I have heard of this happening. Do you call it a "choice" when a Bullied kid *has* to go to another school to get away from a bully and nothing is being done against the bully? Or risk being hurt every day? If they face that sort of harrasment, then it really isn't a *choice* anyways. I feel for any bullied kid, I do, but pretending it doesn't happen by ignoring it, putting the bullied kid in another school or protection/etc, doesn't actually solve the problem. The bully will likely just find another victim  :unsure: So, put all the "gay" kids in one school, and the bully will pick someone else to pick on, I guarentee it. The don't usually pick on someone just because they disagree with something about the other kid (though thats what they tell themselves and everyone else) but often something that is wrong with themself, that they won't face, so they bully others to take out their frusterations/feel perversly better about themselves.  :(

Edited by sierraleone, 29 July 2003 - 08:11 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#58 ZipperInt

ZipperInt
  • Islander
  • 1,825 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 08:47 PM

While having a separate school for gay students does nothing in the way of promoting acceptance in the rest of society, those who feel that it is neccessary should have the opportunity to learn in a place where they feel safe and accepted. The argument that the school district should be going after the bullies and not moving the gay students out of the way is a reasonable one, but does not address the fact that many attempts to stop bullying are largely ineffective and that since the students can choose whether they want to attend or not, they aren't really being moved out of the way (more like being given an option).
  The solution of a separate school is not long-term or desirable - the serious bullies will find other targets and the gay students won't have a chance to contribute to those that would accept them, but if the students in this district feel that there is a need for this school, why not give it to them?
The second greatest podcast in the history of ever:
http://geeksonaplain.blogspot.com/

#59 Uncle Sid

Uncle Sid

    Highly impressionable

  • Islander
  • 1,414 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 08:49 PM

There's really no point to arguing that his is anything but segregation, and state-sponsored at that.  Is that a problem?  Yes.

I seem to be hearing that this is for the "protection" of gay children.  And I actually believe that they mean it, since it's probably sponsored by like-mineded individuals and those sympathetic.  The point that Lil is making, however, is that if you can create a publicly funded school on the basis of being a group, even a protected minority group, then you have to allow it for everyone.  You *also* make it government policy that it is an acceptable practice to segregate yourselve if you feel threatened.  That means that whites in the inner city could do it, blacks could do it, anyone could do it.  

There's many bad things that can happen from this, but let's start with the basics.  If you're in an all-gay high school, then you lose out on a lot of socialization with people who are not.  Diversity works both ways.  In the real world, you're not going to be living in an all-gay state and working at an all-gay workplace.  Going to Gay High is just putting off the inevitable.  The longer you go without picking up survival skills for the real world, the harder it's going to be.  

Secondly, there's the obvious point that if people know you go to Milk High, they know you're gay.  And that does paint a bullseye on you.  You may be safe inside, but your sexuality is now a matter of public record.  That in and of itself, is something that should make these people uncomfortable.  If being gay is really *that* dangerous, then that high school is like living in a Jewish settlement in the middle of the West Bank.  Wall yourself off all you like, but those places still take mortar fire from the outside.  

Next, even though it's the people trying to protect gays who are working on this now, they're certainly providing a convenient excuse for people who might want to segregate gays, "for their own safety", except that they have a very different idea of what "safety" means.  A lot of regimes tend to use that as cover to marginalize and mistreat minorities.  Often, when trying to pass such laws, repessive governments use that line, but over in NYC, they've already got the law ready for them.  

Further, gays have problems with attacks and such, but they are not an economically disadvantged group.  Parents are going to look at this and not only see an segregated school, but basically what amounts to a prep school on public funds.  Except only gays get to go there, or perhaps, people who have to pass a litmus test as to their feelings on the matter.  Thus, it can add an element to jealousy that didn't exist before.  People who could care less either way about gays, but do care that their little Johnny isn't getting the educational resources they they think he should have are not going to be happy with that school, and that could translate itself into not liking gays in general.  

Last but not least, it's also a convenient way to pass the buck.  If a gay kid is being attacked or taunted in a regular school and the administration is tearing their hair out trying to deal with that, wouldn't it be really tempting to just look at Milk High and suggest that the student go there?  No muss, no fuss.  No messy lawsuits, no extra work, and best of all, no contraversy.  Of course, no progress towards a tolerant student body either.

Yes, there are gays who get attacked abused and hurt due to their preference.  There are also women who get attacked, and minorties who get attacked and a lot of other groups.  The solution is not sticking there people in a ghetto of their own making.  Do you think attacks are going to stop when gays stop being in schools where straight kids can see them as humans?  No way.  If anything, it makes it easier to keep them at arm's length and ignore them or worse, ignore their problems.  It's a really bad idea to have people who desire inclusion to practice exclusion.
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey

#60 Kosh

Kosh

    Criag Ferguson For President!

  • Islander
  • 11,147 posts

Posted 29 July 2003 - 09:35 PM

Quote

$3.2 million is being spent by the City to expand it to take 100 students. Named after a gay San Francisco politician assassinated in 1978, the school will be funded jointly by the city education department and a gay rights youth advocacy group.

Is there no difference  since NY City is putting up half the money instead of NY State?
Can't Touch This!!



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: LGBT, Education

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users