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New York opens 1st public school for gay students

LGBT Education

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#61 Drew

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 12:36 AM

ZipperInt, on Jul 29 2003, 04:37 AM, said:

The solution of a separate school is not long-term or desirable - the serious bullies will find other targets . . .
And what about the bullies' new targets? (I note that there isn't a bit of statistical information regarding the preponderance of bullying, abuse, or whatever to back up this decision. I'm surprised. Statistics are usually part of the first philosophical salvo.) I mean, all kinds of kids get bullied and abused. It doesn't just happen to the gay kids. (Again . . . can anyone point out statistics that suggest that gay kids get bullied more often than, for example, the "geeks" or "nerds," and to a degree that really cries out for a special school for them.)

How many of us were bullied and abused in school? How many of us could have used a safe haven for learning? ::: raises hand ::: Is segregation ever an answer?

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Secondly, there's the obvious point that if people know you go to Milk High, they know you're gay. And that does paint a bullseye on you. You may be safe inside, but your sexuality is now a matter of public record. That in and of itself, is something that should make these people uncomfortable. If being gay is really *that* dangerous, then that high school is like living in a Jewish settlement in the middle of the West Bank. Wall yourself off all you like, but those places still take mortar fire from the outside.

An excellent point. Not unlike rounding up all these kids and making them wear pink triangles. It'd be just like the old days. Y'know, in [censored to avoid invoking Godwin's law]. In fact, I can conceive of some pretty insidious things that could be done here in the name of providing a safe haven. (We're putting you in this camp for your own protection . . . )

Whoops. I hit Godwin's law after all, didn't I? :cool:

Oh, so did Uncle Sid:

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Next, even though it's the people trying to protect gays who are working on this now, they're certainly providing a convenient excuse for people who might want to segregate gays, "for their own safety", except that they have a very different idea of what "safety" means

Edited by Drew, 30 July 2003 - 12:40 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#62 Delvo

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 12:40 AM

Imagine if heterosexuals had proposed this... with precisely the same "justification" for it.

#63 Bad Wolf

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 02:11 AM

actually I hit Godwin's law first when I made my point about yellow star for Jew.:p

Anyways:

Uncle Sid said:

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The point that Lil is making, however, is that if you can create a publicly funded school on the basis of being a group, even a protected minority group, then you have to allow it for everyone. You *also* make it government policy that it is an acceptable practice to segregate yourselve if you feel threatened. That means that whites in the inner city could do it, blacks could do it, anyone could do it.

Yes.  Thank you.

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#64 Drew

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 02:34 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jul 29 2003, 10:01 AM, said:

actually I hit Godwin's law first when I made my point about yellow star for Jew.:p
Yes, but I figured that if we didn't draw attention to it, the Guardians of Proper Discourse™ might not notice.  :cool:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#65 Bad Wolf

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 02:37 AM

Drew, on Jul 29 2003, 08:24 AM, said:

Yes, but I figured that if we didn't draw attention to it, the Guardians of Proper Discourse™ might not notice.  :cool:
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's a good thing I'd put my coffee cup down!

:lol:  :devil:  :lol:

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#66 schoolpsycho

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:02 AM

Did they now. So, what *other* measures did they try first? Did they, for example, come down hard on harassment in the schools? Did they change school policies to mandate harsher consequences? What, precisely, did they attempt before they elected to go the "let's get them out of the way" route?

I'll wager it was not a whole lot.

Sorry sp but in my view this is a knee jerk, potentially catastrophic, and completely shortsighted "solution" that these people have come up with.


They built the school.

So, they obviously felt it was needed.

And maybe they did try everything else.

It's 2003.

And yet, there it stands.

sp
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#67 Bad Wolf

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:07 AM

So what you're saying is that anytime someone does something, it's because they feel it's needed?

How does that make it okay?

I'm sure many people in the South thought that slavery was a necessary component of the economy, that it was needed.

So?

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#68 schoolpsycho

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:22 AM

The point that Lil is making, however, is that if you can create a publicly funded school on the basis of being a group, even a protected minority group, then you have to allow it for everyone.

Fine. I'm not saying don't do it for everyone else if you do it for them.

You *also* make it government policy that it is an acceptable practice to segregate yourselve if you feel threatened. That means that whites in the inner city could do it, blacks could do it, anyone could do it.

It would be my *right* to do so. It's just as much their *right* to segregate themselves if they felt threatened or harassed.

sp
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#69 Jid

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:25 AM

^ The real question is though:

Is it your RIGHT to have this segregation paid for (even partly) by someone else?

I think not.

#70 Bad Wolf

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:25 AM

This whole discussion has raised an issue that's been bugging me for a while.

Most "minority" groups claim to want nothing more than to be treated like everyone else.

How does insisting on being treated "differently" than everyone else further this goal?

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#71 Drew

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:33 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jul 29 2003, 12:15 PM, said:

Most "minority" groups claim to want nothing more than to be treated like everyone else.

How does insisting on being treated "differently" than everyone else further this goal?
That question goes right to the heart of Affirmative Action controversies as well.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#72 QueenTiye

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:45 AM

Drew, on Jul 29 2003, 09:26 AM, said:

And what about the bullies' new targets? (I note that there isn't a bit of statistical information regarding the preponderance of bullying, abuse, or whatever to back up this decision. I'm surprised. Statistics are usually part of the first philosophical salvo.) I mean, all kinds of kids get bullied and abused. It doesn't just happen to the gay kids. (Again . . . can anyone point out statistics that suggest that gay kids get bullied more often than, for example, the "geeks" or "nerds," and to a degree that really cries out for a special school for them.)
I'll repeat it again.  Without having the statistical information to make this anything but anecdotal - the problems facing gay students in NYC are not so pronounced as the creation of an entire school just for them would suggest.  There are kids at far worse risk in other areas.

And 'Hawk raised just the right point about "Gay High."  If this were simply a matter of curriculum preferencce in pursuit of certain ACADEMIC goals, it would not be such a problem.  But then - it ALSO wouldn't be restricted to GAY students.  ANY Student wanting to be in a more open, gay-tolerant school environment should be allowed.

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#73 schoolpsycho

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:45 AM

So what you're saying is that anytime someone does something, it's because they feel it's needed?

No.  But, it's there.

How does that make it okay?

It doesn't. But, it's there.

I'm sure many people in the South thought that slavery was a necessary component of the economy, that it was needed.

They did. And they still do.

So?

It is what is, Lil. Whether you like it, don't like it, can't accept it, won't accept it, infuriates you, makes you cry, makes you despair. These kids needed this place, or else they wouldn't have gone. Do you really think they wanted to enroll? Of course not. They would have loved to have been treated just like everybody else. To be themselves without worrying about their safety, just cuz they want to want to go to school. They *can't*. They just can't. That's why it's there, Lil. It's there. The real issue for me is not the State building the school, but that it was built, and why it needed to be. You hate it. Good. Then, make sure another one isn't built. If you can. We know, don't we?

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#74 Drew

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:54 AM

QueenTiye, on Jul 29 2003, 12:35 PM, said:

I'll repeat it again.  Without having the statistical information to make this anything but anecdotal - the problems facing gay students in NYC are not so pronounced as the creation of an entire school just for them would suggest.  There are kids at far worse risk in other areas.
Oh, in case you didn't realize it, QT, I agree with you about this issue.  :upside:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#75 Drew

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:57 AM

schoolpsycho, on Jul 29 2003, 12:35 PM, said:

These kids needed this place, or else they wouldn't have gone.
When does the level of "need" rise to the point where the government must step in and provide?
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#76 schoolpsycho

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 05:02 AM

When does the level of "need" rise to the point where the government must step in and provide?

When doesn't it?

But, it's all about the money here.

sp
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#77 Drew

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 05:11 AM

schoolpsycho, on Jul 29 2003, 12:52 PM, said:

When doesn't it?
When I "need" a new car. When I "need" a new job. When my church "needs" a larger building. When I "need" lunch.

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#78 QueenTiye

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 05:20 AM

schoolpsycho, on Jul 29 2003, 01:35 PM, said:

It is what is, Lil. Whether you like it, don't like it, can't accept it, won't accept it, infuriates you, makes you cry, makes you despair. These kids needed this place, or else they wouldn't have gone. Do you really think they wanted to enroll? Of course not. They would have loved to have been treated just like everybody else. To be themselves without worrying about their safety, just cuz they want to want to go to school. They *can't*. They just can't. That's why it's there, Lil. It's there. The real issue for me is not the State building the school, but that it was built, and why it needed to be. You hate it. Good. Then, make sure another one isn't built. If you can. We know, don't we?

sp
schoolpsycho... I appreciate your compassion.  But just because some kids feel like they need a school all to themselves doesn't make that a reality.  

1. Kids in high school OFTEN feel different from their peers, and like they don't belong/fit in.  

2. NY has a very high tolerance for homosexuality.  There is an entire section of the city (The Village) that is predominantly homosexual based... ANY school in the district is likely to be very tolerant of homosexuality.  This is the section where some CHURCHES reach out to the homosexual community very proactively and acceptingly.  

3. In short - I do NOT believe that there is ANY special need for a school that excludes others. I do NOT believe that gay kids getting harassed and bullied is any worse than any OTHER kid being harassed and bullied - and I think that in MOST cases, the danger faced by kids in drug zones is far worse - the excuses being used to give preferential treatment (yes I'm calling it that) to a very small segment of the gay student population.

4. Speaking of WHAT IS... you know how kids get INTO those schools? A lot of time - it's based on where you live, and who you happen to know.  

QT

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#79 QueenTiye

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 05:28 AM

schoolpsycho, on Jul 29 2003, 01:52 PM, said:

When does the level of "need" rise to the point where the government must step in and provide?

When doesn't it?

But, it's all about the money here.

sp
No it's not all about the money.  It's all about who decides what is needed and what isn't, and whether or not someone has the right to expect preferential treatment from the government.

If there is a NEED to segregate a segment of the population for some reason - then let them get together and segregate themselves.  I think it would not go over well, and I think it would invite more hostility.  But they could do it.   Instead, their NEEDS have now taken precedence over the needs of others  - being met BY the Government, as if the government had any obligation whatsoever to be meeting their private needs.

You speak of need.  EVERYBODY needs to be safe.  Lil was talking about law enforcement.  That's the government's responsibility.  It applies to everyone EQUALLY.  Gays have no special need to be safe that is different from any other person.  And while they may (at this time in history) be more prone to attack - that just means that the law enforcement system needs to make an adjustment to meet that need.  

Which goes to the whole "hate crimes" thing, and I'm sorry to be off-topic now - but what the heck difference does it make to label a thing a "hate crime?"  

Anyway - being compassionate about someone else's situation doesn't require government action.

QT

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#80 Rhea

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 05:30 AM

QueenTiye, on Jul 29 2003, 11:10 AM, said:

I do NOT believe that gay kids getting harassed and bullied is any worse than any OTHER kid being harassed and bullied.
I disagree with this portion of your statement. The level of hysteria associated with anti-gay folk still amazes me. Even in cities like NY and San Francisco, where gay people have gained large acceptance, homosexuals are still routinely harassed and beaten up. Gay teenagers have a particularly hard row to hoe.

I can certainly see both the need and the desire for such a school, given that gay teens often face harassment far beyond that of any of their peers. However, I believe such a school should be private, not paid for with public funds.
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