Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

New York opens 1st public school for gay students

LGBT Education

  • Please log in to reply
114 replies to this topic

#81 schoolpsycho

schoolpsycho
  • Islander
  • 893 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 05:36 AM

Hello, QueenTiye...

I appreciate your position as well.

But, they built the school.

I believe anyone has the right to go wherever they like.

Do I like the fact they had to do this?

No, no, and no.

But they did.

And some kids felt they had to go.

And they have the right to go there.  And they are using it.

That's all I'm trying to say.

sp
Love is hard...and all there is.

#82 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,300 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 05:37 AM

Rhea, on Jul 29 2003, 02:20 PM, said:

QueenTiye, on Jul 29 2003, 11:10 AM, said:

I do NOT believe that gay kids getting harassed and bullied is any worse than any OTHER kid being harassed and bullied.
I disagree with this portion of your statement. The level of hysteria associated with anti-gay folk still amazes me. Even in cities like NY and San Francisco, where gay people have gained large acceptance, homosexuals are still routinely harassed and beaten up. Gay teenagers have a particularly hard row to hoe.

I can certainly see both the need and the desire for such a school, given that gay teens often face harassment far beyond that of any of their peers. However, I believe such a school should be private, not paid for with public funds.
Well... take a visit to a school in a drug infested neighborhood.  See how comfortable you are walking past drug dealers, and think about how it makes you feel if you look at them too long and they ask "What the F*** are you looking at?"  

Now be a kid trying to be good, walking through that environment every day.  

Yes - bigotry is ugly, and when it escalates to violence it is even worse.  But bigoted violence is not sufficient justification to build new schools.

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#83 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,300 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 05:40 AM

schoolpsycho, on Jul 29 2003, 02:26 PM, said:

Hello, QueenTiye...

I appreciate your position as well.

But, they built the school.

I believe anyone has the right to go wherever they like.

Do I like the fact they had to do this?

No, no, and no.

But they did.

And some kids felt they had to go.

And they have the right to go there.  And they are using it.

That's all I'm trying to say.

sp
In essence - you are restating the facts of the matter.  Nobody can dispute the facts.  Here's a fact you are leaving out.

Not ALL kids have the right/opportunity to go to this school.

And one more thing about the whole choice issue -

IF homosexuality is truly an identity issue and not a CHOICE - this school is not only wrong - it is BLATANTLY so.

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#84 schoolpsycho

schoolpsycho
  • Islander
  • 893 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 05:50 AM

In essence - you are restating the facts of the matter. Nobody can dispute the facts. Here's a fact you are leaving out.

Not ALL kids have the right/opportunity to go to this school.

And one more thing about the whole choice issue -

IF homosexuality is truly an identity issue and not a CHOICE - this school is not only wrong - it is BLATANTLY so.


Then I repeat what I said to Lil. If you think it's wrong, and BLATANTLY so, then you make sure another school like it isn't built. If you can. If you can't, then don't expect anyone to stand by and wait to be killed just because they wanted to go a school where others don't want them to, and would. Black, White, straight, or gay.

sp
Love is hard...and all there is.

#85 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,300 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 06:05 AM

schoolpsycho, on Jul 29 2003, 02:40 PM, said:

Then I repeat what I said to Lil. If you think it's wrong, and BLATANTLY so, then you make sure another school like it isn't built. If you can. If you can't, then don't expect anyone to stand by and wait to be killed just because they wanted to go a school where others don't want them to, and would. Black, White, straight, or gay.

sp
Where are these threats of being killed?  Any information on this happening?  LaughingVulcan (I think) mentioned the Laramie incident.  There are isolated other cases as well.  I'm interested in knowing about the statistics on this, the regularity, the probability of occurance.  I'm not being sarcastic - I'd really like to know.  

But even if that were the case - there are other solutions.  IF there is a problem of that magnitude, students can be moved to another school.  As Rhea pointed out, private institutions can create these schools if they really believe there is a need for them.  But as an average citizen, my job is to vote in people who aren't bigoted and who have a degree of sensitivity.  My job is to contribute to a better society by NOT being a bigot myself, and promoting tolerance to all in my acquaintance.  And the government's job, I repeat, is to enforce the law, and to make sure that nobody get's killed for any reason.

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#86 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 06:08 AM

schoolpsycho, on Jul 29 2003, 01:40 PM, said:

. . . don't expect anyone to stand by and wait to be killed just because they wanted to go a school where others don't want them to, and would.
No one here is saying that kids shouldn't be allowed to go to the Harvey Milk School. What most of us are saying is that it shouldn't be supported with public funds. Can you understand this distinction?
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#87 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 06:13 AM

QueenTiye, on Jul 29 2003, 01:55 PM, said:

As Rhea pointed out, private institutions can create these schools if they really believe there is a need for them.
The Harvey Milk School is a program of the Hetrick-Martin Institute. Warning: link contains much alphabet soup.

Edited by Drew, 30 July 2003 - 06:16 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#88 Jid

Jid

    Mad Prophet of Funk

  • Islander
  • 12,554 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 07:29 AM

Let me see if I have both sides right, more for my benefit, but also so I can look at both, then talk more ;)

So, this is a quasi-dialectical form of essay, sans a few things.

In favour of the school:

Teenagers can be quite cruel to each other.  This is quite possibly more true (or true with more frequency) for teens that also happen to be homosexual.  Therefore, it's only right to provide them the option of attending school in an environment that is theoretically safe from sexuality-based prejudicial treatment.  As such, it's perfectly legitimate for funding to come from a governing body to make this option possible for its constituents.

Against the School:

Segregationalist at worst, preferential at best, using public funding to set up a school that caters to a relatively small section of society is wrong.  It uses funds of the whole, to encourage separation of one group.  Thus, the use of public funding in this case gives tacit approval to the segregationalist policies social activists have been railing against for several decades.  With precedence set, the government is now open to being sued for funding of a school that caters only to a certain demographic, based on race, religion or sexuality.

My take:

The desire to protect a group of people who often take a large amount abuse from society at large, and especially from those in their own age group, is a noble desire.  I however, still lean more towards the "against" side of this argument.

Certainly, the school would afford a "safe haven" for people wishing to not be persecuted for their sexuality.  However, it would also in my opinion, likely become a buffer between students and the realities of life out in the "Real World."  

Humans, as a group, are often panicky, prone to hive mentality, and often close minded.  While no one certainly deserves any kind of exposure to torment at the hands of such as our species, the sad reality is, that all the school would really serve to do is delay (or at least minimize) the exposure to such unpleasant and often hateful behaviour often exhibited towards homosexuals in general.  Rather, instead of teaching kids how to cope with being treated like they're "different" when they're young and resilient, wait until they're older and less likely to be able to adapt to change.

I think, if anything, this could do more harm than good, unless some caring individual wishes to set up an all-homosexual university, and several all-homosexual companies situated in nice all-homosexual cities.

In other words, I think while the sentiment behind the school is at its heart, noble, it's addressing the symptoms, and not the root cause that eventually led to people thinking this school is a good idea.

In my not so humble opinion, the school is a bad idea, not that I wish to infringe on the RIGHT to have such a school, with one small caveat....

It would be my RIGHT to start my own school.  It would be my RIGHT to make it a haven for a certain demographic of society.   It would be my RIGHT to surround it with 12 foot tall concrete walls.  It would be my RIGHT to say anyone who didn't fit the mold I make for it could or couldn't attend given its intended purpose.  And these rights are all guaranteed.

However, nowhere, under any circumstances, is it my RIGHT to present the bill for doing all this, whole or in part, to the public coffers and say "pay up."

Nor would it be proper for me to accept an offer of public funds, should someone in the government think I'm on the right track with my idea.

Why?  Simply put, because I am not catering to the public at large.  My target is the small demographic I think has need of this school.  It wouldn't matter if I named it the "Harvey Milk School," or the "Martin Luther King Jr. School," or the "Jesus H. Christ in a Pink Convertible! School."  Public funds are meant to be used for the betterment of the public, not one special segment of it.

If we wish to address the incredibly poor and close minded treatment afforded homosexuals, and indeed, almost all minority groups, the solution isn't to use public funds to let them hide.  The solution is to make it so they needent hide at all.  Sure it's harder.  But getting a few simple laws passed wouldn't be tough, and it'd be a great first step.

Toughen up the penalties on crimes motivated by hate or animosity towards a minority, be it based on colour, race, sexuality, or religion.  In schools, toughen up punishments in a similar matter.  Promote diversity and acceptance in whatever ways possible so that it reaches the entire public.

Okay, my feet are tired from standing on this soapbox, so I'm getting down and shutting up now.  As for all of the above, well, it's all my opinion, as it's all I can really offer in a forum such as this.  Take it as you will, but be forwarned that as always, YMMV. :)

[Edited cause I mixed up "it's" with "its"] :blush:

Edited by Jid, 30 July 2003 - 07:38 AM.

cervisiam tene rem specta

#89 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,300 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 07:35 AM

Jid... Take a bow!  Thank you, thank you, and THANK YOU!!!

Especially this part:

Quote

If we wish to address the incredibly poor and close minded treatment afforded homosexuals, and indeed, almost all minority groups, the solution isn't to use public funds to let them hide. The solution is to make it so they needent hide at all. Sure it's harder. But getting a few simple laws passed wouldn't be tough, and it'd be a great first step.

Toughen up the penalties on crimes motivated by hate or animosity towards a minority, be it based on colour, race, sexuality, or religion. In schools, toughen up punishments in a similar matter. Promote diversity and acceptance in whatever ways possible so that it reaches the entire public.

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#90 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 08:58 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jul 29 2003, 06:53 AM, said:

It's the State ACTION.
Actually I canít find any information that says the government in Albany is involved in anyway whatsoever.  This looks to be a New York City situation.  Pet Peeve OnNew York City is not all of New York State. ;) Pet Peeve Off
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#91 Laoise

Laoise

    I am bounce around so well

  • Islander
  • 714 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 09:20 AM

I'm white, female, straight, and have straight long brown hair.  I got severly harrassed at school -- I recieved both death and rape threats.  In New York, could I have a school for just white straight females with straight long brown hair, on a public system's budget?

You don't have to be gay to be abused by your peers.

So unless every single person who was ever picked on at school gets a school for only people just like them, then neither should gays.  At least not on a publicly funded system.
Being Liberal means never having to say you're Tory.

#92 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 09:23 AM

{{{{{{{{Jid}}}}}}}}

I echo QT's praise.

Aegis, fine then.  It's GOVERNMENT action.

:p
Posted Image

#93 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 9,212 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 09:57 AM

Laoise, on Jul 29 2003, 02:10 PM, said:

I'm white, female, straight, and have straight long brown hair.† I got severly harrassed at school -- I recieved both death and rape threats.† In New York, could I have a school for just white straight females with straight long brown hair, on a public system's budget?

You don't have to be gay to be abused by your peers.

So unless every single person who was ever picked on at school gets a school for only people just like them, then neither should gays.† At least not on a publicly funded system.
*hugs Lao*

I always felt different in school too, I *still* feel different, odd, somehow. But, on the surface, I am "normal" (white straight female). Does this mean I was hurt less in school? I had little for mean people to pick on. I'm not ugly, or fat, or too shy, or part of a visible minority. A little introverted and actually liked learning ;) but last I heard, I am not part of a visible minority. An *in*visible minority perhaps, but no one pays attention to those, persicely because its not easily noticible. People still managed to find things to pick on though. I got threats as well. Quite a few were just mouthing off (even if they believe in what they were doing/saying they would never back it up with actions), but I got pretty scared a few times  :crazy: But I also was pretty good at advoiding/ignoring bullies and idiots and a-holes at school.

Edited by sierraleone, 30 July 2003 - 10:29 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#94 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 10:03 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jul 29 2003, 10:13 PM, said:

Aegis, fine then.  It's GOVERNMENT action.:p
That I can settle for you saying. ;)
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#95 MuseZack

MuseZack

    132nd S.O.C.

  • Demigod
  • 5,432 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 10:36 AM

Hmm... I'm sympathetic to the cause here (protecting gay students from abuse), but setting up a seperate school would seem to let the district off the hook in confronting the real problem-  a culture of tolerance toward bullying in the schools.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#96 Shalamar

Shalamar

    Last Star to the Left and Straight on till Morning

  • Forever Missed
  • 17,644 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 12:17 PM

Jid Please let me echo what QT, and Lil said.

{{{{{{ Jid }}}}}}}


Beautifully said! Thank you.

#97 Rhea

Rhea

  • Islander
  • 16,433 posts

Posted 30 July 2003 - 01:22 PM

MuseZack, on Jul 29 2003, 04:26 PM, said:

Hmm... I'm sympathetic to the cause here (protecting gay students from abuse), but setting up a seperate school would seem to let the district off the hook in confronting the real problem-  a culture of tolerance toward bullying in the schools.
Exactly.

And Jid: WORD!  ;)
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#98 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 31 July 2003 - 12:52 AM

In the search for statistics to back up the need for such a state-sponsored school, I've come up blank. I'd also like to note that the statistics at the website for the Hetrick-Martin Institute which runs the Harvey Milk School, all the statistics about gay youth are from 10 to 20 years ago.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#99 Julie

Julie
  • Islander
  • 777 posts

Posted 31 July 2003 - 05:03 AM

I'm actually a little surprised that gay rights activists consider this a victory.  

If I were one of them trying to stop the abuse of gay kids in schools, my advice to those kids would be not to boil their identity down to the one aspect that makes them different.  The people who hate gays do this already, and sending homosexuals to a 'gay school' is only reinforcing that.  When you can turn someone into one characteristic, be it gay or black or nerdy or stupid, you're making it easier for others to hate them, because they're hating one characteristic, not a person.

There's more to people than their sexuality, especially at that age when they're still defining who they are.  Seperating them based on their sexuality, instead of showing them how to intergrate themselves with the rest of society, will do more long-term harm than good.

#100 Chipper

Chipper

    Give it up

  • Islander
  • 5,202 posts

Posted 31 July 2003 - 05:12 AM

What Jid and Laoise said.

Until the root of the problem is weeded out, this school won't really help these kids feel safe.  No one who is harrassed anywhere, be it school or out of it, will feel safe until society accepts the diversity of the people in it.
"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?"

- Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: LGBT, Education

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users