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Our troops did WHAT?

Iraq US Troops Kidnapping

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:15 PM

http://www.heraldnet...28/17267240.cfm

Quote

Col. David Hogg, commander of the 2nd Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division, said tougher methods are being used to gather the intelligence. Wednesday night, he said, his troops picked up the wife and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general. They left a note: "If you want your family released, turn yourself in."

Um... EXCUSE ME???

Remember we're supposed to be *helping* these people? Pardon me for being a naive civilian type, but doesn't abducting women and children *hamper* our goals, besides being a blatant violation of common decency? I realize that we're obliged to take drastic measures to achieve our goals in this era... but I don't think that there can be any justification for this.

The information that this guy is supposed to have better be damned good. :glare:. Yes, yes, they got the guy they were after. Hot damn.

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 29 July 2003 - 02:17 PM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#2 Bad Wolf

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:18 PM

Unbelievable.

Any chance this could be a hoax?

Lil
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#3 Rov Judicata

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:19 PM

^

I don't think so. I first heard the story on Fox News, which would be the *last* station to report news that impacts negatively on the war.

However, I'll dig up more sources.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#4 Rov Judicata

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:22 PM

http://www.msnbc.com/news/944890.asp

It's on MSNBC too. I hope it's a hoax... but I don't think so.

EDIT: And the Washington Post http://www.washingto...-2003Jul27.html

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 29 July 2003 - 02:25 PM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#5 MuseZack

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:26 PM

From the Geneva Convention, Protocol 1:

Art. 75.

2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents: (a) violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular: (i) murder; (ii) torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental; (iii) corporal punishment; and (iv) mutilation;

(b) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form or indecent assault; © the taking of hostages; (d) collective punishments; and (e) threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#6 the 'Hawk

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:26 PM

Nothing new there. This tactic is as old as intelligence-gathering itself. But at the same time, US troops being the ones making it happen.... yeah, somebody's head better roll over this. That's the left hand not knowing what the right hand is threatening with a bayonet.

:cool:
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#7 Rov Judicata

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:29 PM

Zack-- Thanks for referencing the relevant portion. If this is true-- and it appears it is-- this is a gross violation of the US's int'l obligations. :glare:.

Hawk--  Of course the tactic is ancient. But it has no place in modern warfare from a country that claims to be a light of civilization.

Maybe I'm naive... but I honestly didn't expect our commanders to be so STUPID as to perfom an illegal, unwise, and unpolitical action.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#8 Anakam

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:37 PM

Color me speechless.  :wacko: :grr:
Sailing free, boundless glimmer, golden whispers, fiery poise, delicate balance, grave and true, bound by earth, feared horizons, courageous steps unknown, shimmering future hidden yet unveiled....

I think you're the first female cast member to *insist* on playing a guy ;) - Iolanthe, on my cross-casting obsession.

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle, this earth of majesty, this seat of Mars, this other Eden, demi-paradise, this fortress built by Nature for herself... - John of Gaunt, Act II, Scene I, Richard II

"I think perhaps that was a sub-optimal phrasing for the maintenance of harmony within the collective." - Omega, here

"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?" - Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#9 usmarox

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:46 PM

IIRC, the US is not a signatory to the Geneva Convention.  They use the UCMJ instead, which I always understood to say much the same thing.  I can't see the UCMJ not making a similar provision, but the possibility is there nonetheless.

EDIT:  Some confirmation for you
UN States Party to the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols

You will observe that the US is not a signatory to Protocol 1.

Edited by usmarox, 29 July 2003 - 02:47 PM.

Miscellaneous ramblings and utter negativity - my LJ

You are not free, whose liberty is won by other, more righteous souls.  You are merely protected.  You suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return.  Now, the time has come for you to pay for that freedom, and you will pay in the currency of honest toil and human blood."

Inquisitor Czevak, Address to the Council of Ryanti.  

And no less true for being fictional.


Two ears, one mouth.  Use them in that ratio.

#10 Bad Wolf

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:49 PM

I don't give a flying frell if they are a signatory.

Kidnapping people and holding them hostage is simply wrong.

It's an act of terrorism and a violation of human rights.

This is appalling.

Lil
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#11 Rov Judicata

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:52 PM

Thanks for the clarification US. But....

You know, Lil nailed it.

This was an act of *terrorism*. If the 'bad guys' were to do this, then the media and the president would be screaming.

Let's read the quote again:

Quote

Such tactics are justified, he said, because, "It's an intelligence operation with detainees, and these people have info." They would have been released in due course, he added later.

It's okay to kidnap families so long as the figures you're targeting have 'information'.

I'm sure that same moral standard would be applied if the Iraqi's managed to nab the family of a US soldier. Right?
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#12 MuseZack

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:54 PM

usmarox, on Jul 29 2003, 03:36 AM, said:

IIRC, the US is not a signatory to the Geneva Convention.  They use the UCMJ instead, which I always understood to say much the same thing.  I can't see the UCMJ not making a similar provision, but the possibility is there nonetheless.

EDIT:  Some confirmation for you
UN States Party to the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols

You will observe that the US is not a signatory to Protocol 1.
See   http://www.adtdl.arm...m/27-10/CH8.htm  specifically 497 g.

This is from the US Army's Field Manual The Law of Land Warfare.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#13 Anakam

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:54 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Jul 29 2003, 04:42 AM, said:

I'm sure that same moral standard would be applied if the Iraqi's managed to nab the family of a US soldier. Right?
Oh, yeah, sure.... :rolleyes: :sarcasm:

AFTER we dropped some bunker busters on the individuals responsible.

*excess sarcasm*
Sailing free, boundless glimmer, golden whispers, fiery poise, delicate balance, grave and true, bound by earth, feared horizons, courageous steps unknown, shimmering future hidden yet unveiled....

I think you're the first female cast member to *insist* on playing a guy ;) - Iolanthe, on my cross-casting obsession.

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle, this earth of majesty, this seat of Mars, this other Eden, demi-paradise, this fortress built by Nature for herself... - John of Gaunt, Act II, Scene I, Richard II

"I think perhaps that was a sub-optimal phrasing for the maintenance of harmony within the collective." - Omega, here

"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?" - Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#14 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 03:01 PM

I’d say we need a lot more background information on this one before a judgment call can be made.  Now the question in my eyes would be what role this wife and daughter are holding in the search for this man.  The article is a tad vague to say the least.  For example I=f this man is a former regime member or was a threat to US forces in some manner and they were aiding him in remaining free then the Geneva Convention would allow their internment.  I notice in the section from what Rov quoted it was implied the mother and daughter had information.    

Quote

Art. 68. Protected persons who commit an offence which is solely intended to harm the Occupying Power, but which does not constitute an attempt on the life or limb of members of the occupying forces or administration, nor a grave collective danger, nor seriously damage the property of the occupying forces or administration or the installations used by them, shall be liable to internment or simple imprisonment, provided the duration of such internment or imprisonment is proportionate to the offence committed. Furthermore, internment or imprisonment shall, for such offences, be the only measure adopted for depriving protected persons of liberty. The courts provided for under Article 66 of the present Convention may at their discretion convert a sentence of imprisonment to one of internment for the same period.

That said if this was just a case of unjustified snatch and grab then some JAG will probably have someone’s head on a plate.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
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"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
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#15 Rov Judicata

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 03:04 PM

Quote

I’d say we need a lot more background information on this one before a judgment call can be made. Now the question in my eyes would be what role this wife and daughter are holding in the search for this man. The article is a tad vague to say the least. For example I=f this man is a former regime member or was a threat to US forces in some manner and they were aiding him in remaining free then the Geneva Convention would allow their internment.

The woman might *maybe* have some information. Potentially.

But... the child? I don't think so. It also doesn't explain why the family was released, if they were complicit... and allegedly would have been released anyway, even if the guy hadn't showed.

This *could* be something other than what it appears... but I doubt it.

For now, it remains in my outrage file.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#16 Bad Wolf

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 03:05 PM

From the Manual that Zack cited to:

Quote

497. Reprisals

g. Hostages. The taking of hostages is forbidden (GC, art. 34). The taking of prisoners by way of reprisal for acts previously committed (so-called "reprisal prisoners";) is likewise forbidden. (See GC, art. 33.)

I don't need any more background.

This is about as black and white as it gets.

What the hell good is it ousting a guy like Hussein if the occupying force is going to start disappearing people to get their way?

:glare:

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 29 July 2003 - 03:07 PM.

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#17 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 03:09 PM

Quote

Rov: But... the child? I don't think so. 

The article states daughter so do we even know how much of a child she is.  Does it give an age anywhere in the articile?  And shall we just drop the daughter in the street if she is young while we haul in the mother for her role.  I can see it now "US troops arrest mother for _______ while daughter starves from neglect".

Quote

Rov: This *could* be something other than what it appears... but I doubt it.

How many times since this conflict has something turned out to be more than what it appears to be.  I'd say we have a long running tradition of that trend.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 29 July 2003 - 03:12 PM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#18 jon3831

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 03:19 PM

I agree with CJ. It's far too soon to be making judgement calls when all we have is one quote quite possibly taken out of context. We need a *lot* more information.

On the surface, this seems horrible and unjustified, and it even delves into the realm of war crimes, and if that's the case, I sincerely hope those responsible are brought up on charges and if guilty, punished to the fullest extent of the law.

That being said...

Quote

But... the child?

Are we certain she *is* a child? I don't recall reading that. Let's look at the quote again.

Quote

...his troops picked up the wife and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general.

Not necessarily a "child". A "daughter".

Lil cites the manual in regards to "reprisal hostages". Again, we don't know the whole story. Again, we have *one* quote.

I'm marking it up in one to watch.
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WWCELeMD?

#19 Chipper

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 03:20 PM

Un-freakin-believable.

:mad:
"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?"

- Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#20 Rov Judicata

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 03:21 PM

Quote

The article states daughter so do we even know how much of a child she is. Does it give an age anywhere in the articile?

It doesn't specify, for reasons that are unclear.

Quote

And shall we just drop the daughter in the street if she is young while we haul in the mother for her role. I can see it now "US troops arrest mother for _______ while daughter starves from neglect".

The bottom line is still that we abducted two civilians and said "If you want your family released, turn yourself in.". The conjecture that maybe it's an adult child and maybe the mother knew something is just that-- conjecture.

If that turns out to be the case, this may turn out to be something other than it appears.

Quote

How many times since this conflict has something turned out to be more than what it appears to be. I'd say we have a long running tradition of that trend.

Repeatedly. And, usually, I've been the voice of 'Let's wait and see'. But we're hearing the US military *brag* about kidnapping a couple of civilians... in stark contrast to earlier situations where we merely had chaos on the ground and reporters pulling sources out of their butts.

Again... you could be right. Colour me skeptical.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.



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