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Our troops did WHAT?

Iraq US Troops Kidnapping

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#21 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 03:42 PM

jon3831, on Jul 29 2003, 04:09 AM, said:

Not necessarily a "child". A "daughter".
Agreed.  And a Lt. General isn't exactly a rank of a young man who would be more likely to have young children.

Quote

Jon: I agree with CJ. It's far too soon to be making judgement calls when all we have is one quote quite possibly taken out of context. We need a *lot* more information.

All we have to think about is how the Guardian managed to within hours spread a quote that was taken out of context all over the news sources.  We don’t know if this came from a single source, the value of that source, or if it came from multiple reporters.
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#22 Rhea

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 03:49 AM

I'm sorry, but I've checked everywhere, and that is a direct quote from Hogg. No matter how you try to paint it, the fact is that we picked up a man's wife and daughter and held them hostage in order to force him to turn himself in.

As far as I'm concerned, we aren't fighting them, we're BECOMING THEM. This is completely unacceptable.
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#23 Cardie

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:11 AM

I wonder if this commander caught Jack Bauer's similar ploy on 24.

Awful as this is, I'm sure that the only difference from business as usual is that someone talked to the media about it. If you think our forces aren't pulling these sorts of stunts on a regular basis, there's a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

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#24 Rhea

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 05:31 AM

^Agreed. Still doesn't make it right.
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#25 Godeskian

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 05:41 AM

I really hope this isn't what it's appeared to be.

After all, wasn't attacking the families of people he objected against one of the things we claimed was so bad about the Hussein goverment?

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#26 the 'Hawk

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 07:05 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jul 28 2003, 11:19 PM, said:

Of course the tactic is ancient. But it has no place in modern warfare from a country that claims to be a light of civilization.
As Cardie put it (before I could get back online to say it myself), if you don't think it happens more often than it's reported, I'll trade her that bridge in Brooklyn for one in San Francisco....

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#27 prolog

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 07:12 AM

^ The issue doesn't seem to be whether or not we do it; it seems to be, "is such a thing acceptable?"  There's a lot of things that the military could get away with away from the public eye, but that doesn't mean that they *should* do those things.

#28 the 'Hawk

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 07:20 AM

^ But too often, military actions don't even greet the news.

It's never a matter of what *should* be done. It's a matter of what *has to* be done.

And if this is something that the commanding officer feels to be something that has to be done, you can moralize all day and it'll still happen, because the orders will be carried out.

C'est la guerre. The responsibility for the battalion's conduct is the battalion's officer. And if it's being condoned by this fellow, in the names of bringing this lieutenant-general to task, well, the ends never justify the means. So one can only hope this story will be followed by a full military tribunal and inquiry. It's too late to ask questions about what troops should do after they've already gone this far. All we can hope for is a speedy resolution and for common sense to prevail over future military conduct.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but hey, at least it's being reported. Who knows how often this sort of thing has happened --how often it's happening right now-- WITHOUT it gracing our TV screens and computers. At least this time we know it's happening, especially where it clearly shouldn't. Maybe that'll prevent in the future.

But then, maybe not.

*edit because I sounded too dismissive *

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Edited by the 'Hawk, 30 July 2003 - 07:23 AM.

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#29 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 08:50 AM

We have what basically amounts to a whole whopping two sentences of information in every single report.  Sure that is enough to draw your total conclusion from. :blink:  We don’t know the involvement of these two in any way yet people jump to direct conclusions about the story.  Under the Geneva Convention if these two were committing an offense or the situation warranted a direct threat to US troops then interning them until the situation is resolved is completely legal.

Where are the mass stories by the vanguard of the liberal press attacking the US military for being a big bully?  Where are the mass of stories by news agencies who are interested in attacking US policy?  For that matter where is the big story in the Guardian on it?  The lack of mass coverage on this one very much suggests to me there is a lot more to the situation than what meets the eye.  Of course anyone can feel free to pass judgement based on a whole two sentances of information.
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#30 NeuralClone

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 09:34 AM

^

Well said. :) I'm also not willing to jump to any conclusions about this until more information is released, assuming that ever happens. :unsure:
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#31 Anakam

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 12:59 PM

^
I'm not holding my breath.

And how would this quote be more positive *in context*?  That is, giving it the most positive spin possible, how could putting it in context change anything to make the behavior the quote indicates acceptable?  Errr, I didn't phrase that very well, but I think you get the idea.

Cardie--yep.  And that really stinks.....
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#32 Rhea

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 01:09 PM

Ok, so how do you put a positive spin on this?

Quote

Col. David Hogg, commander of the 2nd Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division, said tougher methods are being used to gather the intelligence. Wednesday night, he said, his troops picked up the wife and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general. They left a note: "If you want your family released, turn yourself in." 

How does pulling in someone's family and then using them to blackmail someone to turn themselves in equal anything positive, ever???

I must be missing something somewhere.

Edited by Rhea, 30 July 2003 - 01:10 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#33 Anakam

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 01:15 PM

^
I have no idea how it could, Rhea.  That's why I was asking.... because Aegis and Jon seemed to think there was something more there.  Or something like that.  :eh:
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"I think perhaps that was a sub-optimal phrasing for the maintenance of harmony within the collective." - Omega, here

"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?" - Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#34 Delvo

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 02:11 PM

The way this could be not-bad is if the two women are themselves subjects to be arrested and interrogated for information like anyone else who might know stuff about the old regime. You can't get information from someone without capturing him/her first. But it would mean that they weren't captured for the purpose of getting at someone else.

Even if it is just to get at him, this still isn't becoming the Baathists. There's no torture involved. But it might be the top of a slippery slope.

For those of you selling bridges: Get real. You've obviously let some pretty bizarre prejudices and hatred or maybe bitter political resentment over the war in Iraq blind you to common sense and a grasp of reality if you can spout off stuff like that about American soldiers and expect anyone to fall for it. Your "evidence" made up to support itself.

Edited by Delvo, 30 July 2003 - 02:14 PM.


#35 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 02:47 PM

Quote

Rhea: How does pulling in someone's family and then using them to blackmail someone to turn themselves in equal anything positive, ever????

Well let’s for the big fact that fact that who knows how many American soldiers and Iraqi civilians are alive tonight because of that.  I’d say the lives of our soldiers and a bunch of civilians is pretty important wouldn’t you?  Secondly that people who were carrying out some attempt to disrupt any successful attempt to reconstruct Iraq were captured and the Baathist are one step close to eradication.  

The fact that we don’t even have a clue what the note actually said because some people are taking this as a literal translation.  Somehow I doubt we left something quite as blatant and short as that note on the door.  The Colonel could have left a note saying “we’ve interned your wife and daughter for their [or planned] role in your [blank] illegal activities and they shall remain in custody until you are captured and are no longer a threat to our troops.  

Of course when someone speaks to a reporter they aren’t always going to say exactly what the note said.  Instead they are going to shorten it into the best sounding sound byte.  Our soldiers aren’t trained in how to deal with the press.  They are trained to kill people and break things.  That role doesn’t exactly cover how to look out for the press spinning things when you use the type of language that is effective to talking amongst the troops.

In case someone hasn’t noticed aid and abetting a fugitive is still a crime these days.  We had at least one soldier who was killed because someone strapped a bomb to his or her child and it exploded on him.  The only reason that more aren’t dead including civilians is because he shielded the explosion with his own body.  So yeah we have some real monsters running around Iraq grabbing people up in the night and eating them out back. :blinks:  

People seem to be forgetting some of the real nasty things that the Baathist are still pulling in Iraq and just how popular it is to use women and children in attacks now.  We have no idea how this mother and daughter were involved.  Were they hiding the father, were they plotting in attacks with the father, or did Daddy intend to use them as bait in an attack.  No of course we don’t know if any of this is true.

I think it is the highest height of hypocrisy that the exact same people I have seen who claim there wasn’t enough evidence to go into Iraq are now prosecuting the US military on a whole whopping two sentences of information.   Good work buying into the theory that the US Military is evil incarnate and out to commit war crimes left and right.  The Guardian isn’t even prejudiced and bias enough to able to spin a yarn like that for this one.  The US can’t even blink in Iraq without them complaining and they haven’t yet.  Of course evidence doesn’t matter to many people as long as the military ends up being the bad guy in their mind.  

I ask who needs innocent until proven guilty or any of the concepts that this country was founded on when they can prosecute with a whole two sentences of information?
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"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
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#36 Rov Judicata

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 02:52 PM

While I remain unpersuaded by the conjecture to justify this (note that there's no indication that the women themselves were dangerous, as the military officer said they would have been released in any case... that strongly points to them being innocent bystanders), I don't think it's fair to extrapolate that this is happening on a regular basis.

It *could* be, but we really have no evidence of that.
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#37 eryn

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 02:56 PM

I'm going to go with CJ, Jon, and Sisko on this one, I don't think there is enough infomation and I'm not going to jump to any conclusions.

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#38 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 03:00 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Jul 30 2003, 03:42 AM, said:

While I remain unpersuaded by the conjecture to justify this (note that there's no indication that the women themselves were dangerous, as the military officer said they would have been released in any case... that strongly points to them being innocent bystanders), I don't think it's fair to extrapolate that this is happening on a regular basis.

It *could* be, but we really have no evidence of that.
We have two sentences of information not indicating much of anything either way.  Where are the stories by the press that have been so good at bashing every step the US military has taken so far if such an abuse occurred here?  Why do we have just two sentences devoted to the topic and then they are sentences that are highly slanted in their wording without any solid background to draw conclusions on?  

Under the Geneva Convention you can only intern someone until the direct threat against the occupying force is over.  Meaning if the Lt. General was the direct threat in plotting and executing something then once he was brought in we’d have no more legal justification under the convention to hold them.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 30 July 2003 - 03:01 PM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#39 the 'Hawk

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 03:08 PM

Delvo, on Jul 29 2003, 11:01 PM, said:

For those of you selling bridges: Get real. You've obviously let some pretty bizarre prejudices and hatred or maybe bitter political resentment over the war in Iraq blind you to common sense and a grasp of reality if you can spout off stuff like that about American soldiers and expect anyone to fall for it. Your "evidence" made up to support itself.
Well, bless you too.

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#40 G1223

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 05:29 PM

I will say while against the ROE as I understand it if it saves lives it has to be looked at.  I know it would be nice if the whole world played by the same rules I mean if this was the Russians the women would have been raped and murdered if they were not important. If important then sent and tourtured by all means possible but not raped.

The fact of the matter is the system will take action against the officer that did this. I know it's so much easier not to say nicer to kick our servicemen about for trying to take shortcuts that might not get them killed than try to ask why this action was taken and did it get resualts that keep our soilders alive.
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