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US health care vote

ObamaCare 2010

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#121 JadziaDax

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 10:52 PM

The one thing I'd really like to know now that all of this has passed, is how is this going to cut my medical bills?

Ideally, I'd like to spend less then $1000 a year on medical crap, and that includes prescriptions AND premiums. At the moment, I have a $6000 out of pocket maximum per year with my plan (not counting the premium).....that's a lot of money....I tend to get close to it every now and then, but mostly because my POS insurance thinks that removing my tumors is cosmetic and not medical.

Everything I've read says for me, nothing will change, which makes me sad......because I'd like to lower my medical expenses...and beat the living crap out of my medical insurance provider, but I'm pretty sure that would be illegal ;).

Edited by JadziaDax, 25 March 2010 - 10:53 PM.

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#122 Hibblette

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 10:57 PM

View PostPalisade, on Mar 25 2010, 10:41 PM, said:

^ My parents got by without a car when they were first married. They were in a college town since one of them was finishing up school. They rode the bus system, and they took their groceries home from the store by pushing the grocery cart down the street.

And you don't even want to know my reaction to being told it's a life necessity that your car have an air conditioner. Lots of people in the tropics get by without air conditioners.

And when were your parents first married?  

Not many towns today (if any) have a reliable bus system especially here in Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Mississippi (ok the South) maybe on the East Coast-North.  

I went to college without a car and walked every where.  But I'm not talking about College-I'm talking about going to work and answering phones or flipping burgers or working in shipping/receiving or working in an office-you need a car.  I'm talking about the here and now.  

The tropics actually have nice breezes.  Never been to Texas-have ya.  We have sweltering hot heat.  

And all I was saying was it kept me from getting a job-but then again who cares, right?
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#123 Palisades

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 11:10 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on Mar 25 2010, 09:53 PM, said:

View PostPalisade, on Mar 25 2010, 09:06 PM, said:

^ Neither party is going to do the things that actually have to be done to fix health care. At best, all this bill does is apply a band-aid to a badly broken system that has market distortions all over the place. It will kick the can down the road, health costs will continue their rapid increase, and thus health insurance premiums will also continue their increase. I'd love to fix health care, but it's not going to happen so long as special interests control Washington and Congress depends on consultation with lobbyists for information about the problem it's addressing.

I think you make an interesting point.  Here's an assessment of a similar problem just recently fixed. Not sure if you'll agree with it as it's a liberal proposal, but it is an interesting outlook.

http://www.slate.com/id/2248377/

Quote

For student loan reform, Pearl Harbor occurred on Sept. 2, 1958, when President Dwight Eisenhower signed into law the Sputnik-inspired National Defense Education Act, which sent a torrent of cash to schools across America. Some of that money flowed to colleges and universities through a newly created student loan program, which was called (in the spirit of the larger bill) the National Defense Student Loan Program. Under the program, the government provided funding to colleges and universities, which in turn lent money to students in need. The idea came  from a left-wing economist named Milton Friedman.

The program worked so well that within a few years the government wanted to expand it. But this proved difficult to achieve because the loans showed up in annual federal budgets as expenditures rather than investments. The solution was to switch from making direct loans to guaranteeing loans made by private banks and nonprofits. That change was implemented under President Lyndon Johnson in the Higher Education Act of 1965. This legislation's enlargement of the government's stake in helping people attend college was roughly analogous to the health reform bill's enlargement of the government's stake in helping people get health care. So was its principal shortcoming: a reliance on the private sector to perform two tasks (cutting checks and collecting payments) at which the government was already reasonably proficient.

Quote

In 1993, newly elected President Bill Clinton signed a law gradually replacing private student loan guarantees with direct government lending in order to save money. But not long after, Congress halted the phase-out of private-loan guarantees and let the private lenders compete with the direct-loan program (much as proponents of a public option favor letting private insurers compete with a government health insurer). For the next decade and a half, the private lenders were winning, mainly because Sallie Mae leveraged its profits from guaranteed student loans by romancing members of Congress for more favorable terms—i.e., more costly to the taxpayer—while romancing college financial aid officers for more business. But after the credit markets went haywire in 2008, banks fled the program in droves, and schools started steering students to more cost-efficient direct loans, creating a perfect opportunity for President Barack Obama to propose ditching student loan guarantees altogether.

All of this is a liberal perspective, obviously, but I think it makes some interesting points, particularly about the potential corrupting influence of funnelling government money to private companies, and the inherent inefficiencies.

QT


My general opinion is that student loans are largely responsible for the high-cost of college because they let students afford what would otherwise be unaffordable. Thus, college costs keep skyrocketing because colleges have little incentive to control their costs since they know students can (and will) borrow the money. The tuition costs plus room and board alone would leave college graduates in most careers so deep in debt they'll have a hard time paying it back, even without interest. The problem is the high cost of college. I believe we have a college bubble, and all providing cheaper credit will do is allow college costs to go higher. It's kind of like saying that lower interest rates are the solution to mortgage payments that are too high.

Yes, some kids have affluent parents who pay their way, and a few get substantial scholarships. But over 60% of college graduates used student loans. And it's not just me blaming student loans for playing a large role in causing the high costs of college. Check out this report. It's kind of long, but Mish posted a summary here.

Interestingly, the Slate author thinks that the solution to both health care and student loans is for the government to start cutting checks and collecting payments while in both cases I've blamed the high costs of health care for the health insurance problem and blamed the high costs of college for the student loan problem. Also, in both cases I've identified market distortions that won't be fixed merely by having the government cut checks and make payments. The summary of the report I linked to contains more detail about how student loans distort the price of college and fuel an "arms race" as they try to out-compete one another. Also, I'm not sure if it's in the report I linked to, but now days colleges are replacing their traditional rooms with fancy suites. When I went to college, I shared a room with a roommate. The bathroom was down the hall, and the laundry facilities were in the basement. Certainly not a luxurious living arrangement, but much cheaper.


Student lending isn't something I know a whole lot about, but a couple facts from the Slate article seem odd to me:

Quote

But this proved difficult to achieve because the loans showed up in annual federal budgets as expenditures rather than investments. The solution was to switch from making direct loans to guaranteeing loans made by private banks and nonprofits.

Actually, the problem wasn't that the loans were showing up as an expenditure rather than an investment. The 'problem' was that since the government made the loan it was showing up on the government's balance sheet. So the government put the loans off-balance sheet by creating the government-sponsored enterprise Sallie Mae. Since the government was only guaranteeing the loans rather than making the loans, the loans didn't show up on the government's balance sheet. In 1995, Congress passed legislation privatizing Sallie Mae.

My understanding is that Sallie Mae operated similarly to Fannie and Freddie. That is, private lenders originate loans, sell them to Sallie Mae, and then Sallie Mae turns the loans into securities and sells them to investors. When Sallie Mae was a GSE, the government guaranteed payments to the investors who bought the securities; that is if the student didn't pay, the government would.

Edited by Palisade, 26 March 2010 - 12:14 AM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#124 Palisades

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 11:31 PM

View PostHibblette, on Mar 25 2010, 10:57 PM, said:

And when were your parents first married?

Not many towns today (if any) have a reliable bus system especially here in Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Mississippi (ok the South) maybe on the East Coast-North.
A while ago, but the city still has a nice bus system, as did every college town I went to when looking at schools for both undergrad and graduate. It's been a while since then, but I checked a sampling of them just now, and they still have their bus systems. The universities were in New England, in the Midwest, and on the West Coast. None of them were in the South though so that could be the difference.


Quote

I went to college without a car and walked every where.  But I'm not talking about College-I'm talking about going to work and answering phones or flipping burgers or working in shipping/receiving or working in an office-you need a car.  I'm talking about the here and now.
Yes, and college towns have jobs!


Quote

Not many towns today (if any) have a reliable bus system especially here in Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Mississippi (ok the South) maybe on the East Coast-North.
So carpool and pay gas money! Or get an apartment within walking distance of a grocery store and a place that's willing to hire you. Those are options. As I said, they're not necessarily convenient, but you can get by in the U.S. without a car if you care enough to do so. If you don't want to do that, then I guess you want the privilege of driving on the government road system so do what your state wants and show it that you can cover any damages you cause to others.


Quote

The tropics actually have nice breezes.  Never been to Texas-have ya.  We have sweltering hot heat.
If you roll the window down while you're driving, you'll get a breeze.
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#125 QueenTiye

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 11:59 PM

View PostPalisade, on Mar 26 2010, 12:10 AM, said:

Interestingly, the Slate author thinks that the solution to both health care and student loans is for the government to start cutting checks and collecting payments while in both cases I've blamed the high costs of health care for the health insurance problem and blamed the high costs of college for the student loan problem. Also, in both cases I've identified market distortions that won't be fixed merely by having the government cut checks and make payments. The summary of the report I linked to contains more detail about how student loans distort the price of college and fuel an "arms race" as they try to out-compete themselves. Also, I'm not sure if it's in the report I linked to, but now days colleges are replacing their traditional rooms with fancy suites. When I went to college, I shared a room with a roommate. The bathroom was down the hall, and the laundry facilities were in the basement. Certainly not luxuries, but much cheaper.


I tend to agree, at least theoretically with the way college tuition are inflated due to student loans.  I say theoretically, because there is a whole host of things I think that colleges should be doing and which need loads of money (I want less private research, and more public research, for instance.)  But having said that, if we're GOING to have student loans (the article takes that as a given), I think the article is making a good point. (The core argument between liberals and conservatives is right there... should there or shouldn't there be student loans?  But in that there are already student loans, the question is - should we keep pretending that this isn't a government service, or should we acknowledge that and make the program work as efficiently as it can, for the sake of good governance?)

Quote

Student lending isn't something I know a whole lot about, but a couple facts from the Slate article seem odd to me:

Quote

But this proved difficult to achieve because the loans showed up in annual federal budgets as expenditures rather than investments. The solution was to switch from making direct loans to guaranteeing loans made by private banks and nonprofits.

Actually, the problem wasn't that the loans were showing up as an expenditure rather than an investment. The 'problem' was that since the government made the loan it was showing up on the government's balance sheet. So the government put the loans off-balance sheet by creating the government-sponsored enterprise Sallie Mae. Since the government was only guaranteeing the loans rather than making the loans, the loans didn't show up on the government's balance sheet. In 1995, Congress passed legislation privatizing Sallie Mae.

My understanding is that Sallie Mae operated similarly to Fannie and Freddie. That is, private lenders originate loans, sell them to Sallie Mae, and then Sallie Mae turns the loans into securities and sells them to investors. When Sallie Mae was a GSE, the government guaranteed payments to the investors who bought the securities; that is if the student didn't pay, the government would.

That's about how the author described it. And then he went on to point out that the government is paying double because of outsourcing the program, and the bill that just passed undoes that pretense.

QT

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#126 Palisades

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 01:51 AM

View PostQueenTiye, on Mar 25 2010, 10:59 PM, said:

I tend to agree, at least theoretically with the way college tuition are inflated due to student loans.  I say theoretically, because there is a whole host of things I think that colleges should be doing and which need loads of money (I want less private research, and more public research, for instance.)

It's completely perverted for undergraduates to be shouldering the costs for the university being a world-class research institution since it benefits them very little. Even lending undergraduates the money at 0% interest is still having them pay for something they shouldn't be paying for. If the public wants the university to do public research, the public should pay the necessary taxes to fully fund the research and world-class research facilities. Don't stick the undergraduates with the bill for what you or society wants! Tuition-wise, the undergraduates should only be paying lecturer fees and for the educational facilities they actually use, along with a modest amount for university support staff and university infrastructure. Of course, it's not just research that's responsible for soaring college costs. From the report I linked to (pp. 31-32):

Quote

Some will note that increasing revenues for colleges is not necessarily bad. For some colleges, par-
ticularly two-year schools, I would tend to agree. But for the most part, I think diminishing returns
set in long ago, and that additional revenue is unlikely to be spent in ways that improve educational
outcomes, though perhaps I am giving too much credence to the following examples of how schools
have recently decided to spend money:

• The University of Illinois spent $6 million on the Irwin Academic Services Center which “helps
only about 550 of the school's 37,000 students” because it is restricted to athletes. But, “at
least four other schools have multimillion-dollar tutoring centers just for their athletes” in-
cluding the $12 million facility at the University of Michigan.54
• Princeton built a $136 million, 500-bed dorm ($272,000 per bed, much more than the median
home costs).55 MIT’s Simmons Hall cost $194,000 per bed.56
• “Framingham State College will spend more than $191,000 building a two-car garage and
stone patio for its state-owned president's house …even as the college's budget faces a poten-
tial $2 million cut”57
• The University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey “spent more than $80,000 in 2005
to shuttle the head of a volunteer advisory board from her home in Pennsylvania’s Po-
conos to the school’s Newark campus.”58
• “Students now get massages, pedicures and manicures at the University of Wisconsin in Osh-
kosh” and students at Indiana University of Pennsylvania can play “one of 52 golf courses
from around the world on the room-sized golf simulators”59
• Ohio State University spent $140 million60 “to build what its peers enviously refer to as the
Taj Mahal, a 657,000-square-foot complex featuring kayaks and canoes, indoor batting cages
and ropes courses, massages and a climbing wall big enough for 50 students to scale simulta-
neously”61
• The University of California gave 16 employees severance checks, and then rehired them. In
the most egregious example, one person “left her old job on April 30 and began her new one
on May 1.” She was given the same salary, but managed to collect a $100,202 severance pay-
ment anyway. And prior to this she was given “a $44,000 relocation allowance and a low-
interest $832,500 home loan, for which she was not otherwise entitled.”62
• In 2006-2007, 293 employees at private schools made more than $500,000. “[T]he highest-
paid college employee in the country was Pete Carroll, head football coach at the University of
Southern California, with $4.4-million in total compensation (pay plus benefits).”63

Perhaps I have not fully developed the requisite comfort level with cognitive dissonance to constantly
hear schools complaining about not having enough money and then witness them spending the
money they do have like this. The problems of higher education that lead to the arms race will ulti-
mately need to be addressed (by developing measures of outputs rather than inputs), but in the
meantime, the key issue with respect to financial aid is how to avoid exacerbating these problems.

I don't think taxpayers should be paying for any of that nonsense.

QT said:

The core argument between liberals and conservatives is right there... should there or shouldn't there be student loans?

I think you meant government-sponsored student loans since most conservatives would be entirely fine with entirely private loans.

Quote

But in that there are already student loans, the question is - should we keep pretending that this isn't a government service, or should we acknowledge that and make the program work as efficiently as it can, for the sake of good governance?

Actually, it was horrible governance that allowed student loans to get out of control, just as horrible governance allowed mortgages to get out of control. In any case, I think the larger question is how to structure the loans so they contribute as little as possible to fueling the rise in college costs. The report I linked to tried, but I have my doubts about how well the idea presented would work. If colleges with expenses near the median increase their costs, then the proposal would obligingly offer students larger loans for the universities to scarf up. So I think the cost containment mechanism might get gradually undermined as universities with expenses near the median see their peers increasing their costs and feel increasingly comfortable about larger cost increases. They'd probably think twice about funding the extravagances quoted above though so the proposed idea is better than what we have.

Edited by Palisade, 26 March 2010 - 02:01 AM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#127 Palisades

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 04:54 AM

me said:

My understanding is that Sallie Mae operated similarly to Fannie and Freddie. That is, private lenders originate loans, sell them to Sallie Mae, and then Sallie Mae turns the loans into securities and sells them to investors. When Sallie Mae was a GSE, the government guaranteed payments to the investors who bought the securities; that is if the student didn't pay, the government would.

Okay, I looked for information to verify what I wrote here, and I found this page. On the points relevant to this discussion, what I wrote is good enough, but I'm somewhat off. It looks like Sallie didn't start the  securitization until a while after it was established. It did establish a secondary market for government guaranteed student loans, thereby attracting private capital to fund the loans, but it used a simpler mechanism than securitization.

Edited by Palisade, 26 March 2010 - 08:02 AM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#128 Hibblette

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 06:07 AM

Carpool!  That's when you have a job.  And carpooling means having your own Car-you still need a car.

And if you have a job with strange hours more then likely that bus system is not all that convenient.

We are a country that is centered around TV's and cars.

Do you do without a car?
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#129 Palisades

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 07:00 AM

^ Carpooling just means sharing a ride. If you don't have a car, you can pay gas money. I've known people who carpool to get to work. It's possible.

You say buses and carpooling aren't convenient. So what? I didn't say getting by without a car was convenient; what I said was that driving is a privilege. Which it is.

Hibblette said:

Do you do without a car?

I wanted the privilege so I agreed to the requirements my state requires in exchange for granting the privilege. Throughout this thread, I've repeatedly said it's not convenient to go without a car. However, I've also said it can be done and that driving is a privilege. You have to earn the privilege, and if your state judges you an unsafe driver, your state can take the privilege away -- no matter how inconvenient to you that may be.

Edited by Palisade, 26 March 2010 - 07:14 AM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#130 QueenTiye

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 08:40 AM

Actually in some places it can't be done.  That's one of those dirty little secrets.  Even in places with bus service - the buses often only go to certain places, with other places entirely not accessible, and they stop running at times and days, rendering people completely immobile.  I know this because my car is out of commission right now and at the hour I need to be at the train to get to work (and at the hour I get back home) the buses aren't running - so I have to take a taxi, and if I need to travel on Sunday, I'm just out of luck.  Saying that driving is a privilege does nothing to ameliorate the fact that the state has not done enough to make the privilege not a necessity, and thereby forcing people to have what is being called a luxury - namely a car.  Worse, because insurance isn't federally regulated, states can have a requirement of insurance, without a similar available public option for when (sometimes due to state policy) the insurance companies aren't willing to do business in the state - something that happened in New Jersey for a while.

My objection here is the same as with the insurance mandate for health care - when private insurers act contrary to the needs of the state, the state has no fall back option, and the citizens are caught in the middle.

QT

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#131 Palisades

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 09:42 AM

^ I hope you get your car fixed soon.

Obviously, forsaking a car to escape the mandate will be more problematic in some places than others. Not having a car definitely cuts down on your options and freedom. For example, if you wanted to forsake driving, you might have to get a job with more normal hours. That might be quite a sacrifice. And faced with that choice, it becomes quite compelling to bow to the mandate and buy car insurance so you can drive.

If New Jersey requires insurance and something about New Jersey's state policy made the car insurance companies unwilling to do business there, to me that seems like New Jersey botched something up. I see that State Farm sells insurance in New Jersey now so New Jersey must have improved its wrongheaded policies.
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#132 Nonny

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 10:01 AM

View PostPalisade, on Mar 25 2010, 08:41 PM, said:

^ My parents got by without a car when they were first married. They were in a college town since one of them was finishing up school. They rode the bus system
Yeah, the good ole days, I remember them too.    :rolleyes:   I prefer my car.  

Quote

and they took their groceries home from the store by pushing the grocery cart down the street.
Which is illegal where I live, because of all the folks who don't bring the carts back, though how the thriving cart return services allowed that one to pass, I don't know.  

Quote

And you don't even want to know my reaction to being told it's a life necessity that your car have an air conditioner. Lots of people in the tropics get by without air conditioners.
The tropics are not the desert.  

I came here considering how to derail this thread and make it about homeless veterans, since my homeless veterans thread is an auxiliary health care thread now.     :sarcasm:

:headshake:
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#133 Palisades

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 10:20 AM

^ Your other thread was about using homeless Veterans to bash Republicans. In any case, the Bedouins lived in the deserts of Arabia without air conditioners. No one in the U.S. had an air conditioner prior to 1900, not even in their home. But in our spoiled modern times, suddenly it's a life necessity that cars have them. Weird.

Edited by Palisade, 26 March 2010 - 10:27 AM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#134 Nonny

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 10:34 AM

View PostPalisade, on Mar 26 2010, 08:20 AM, said:

^ Your other thread was about using homeless Veterans to bash Republicans.
No, my other thread was about Republicans using homeless veterans to bash Democrats.  

Quote

In any case, the Bedouins lived in the desserts of Arabia without air conditioners. No one in the U.S. had an air conditioner prior to 1900, not even in their home. But in our spoiled modern times, suddenly it's a life necessity that cars have them. Weird.
The Bedouins live a hard life of privation, with or without dessert, in the desert.  I live a life of relative comfort, unlike the life I lived before service connection, when I spent two decades trying to fend off always impending homelessness because of the policies of presidents like Reagan and governors like Wilson.  I wasn't always successful.  Sad.  

I'll take spoiled modern.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#135 Palisades

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 10:45 AM

Well, in the time it took you to compose that expression of victimhood with it ode to "spoiled modern," I'd already noticed my errant 's' and removed it.
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#136 Nonny

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 10:48 AM

View PostPalisade, on Mar 26 2010, 08:45 AM, said:

Well, in the time it took you to compose that expression of victimhood with it ode to "spoiled modern," I'd already noticed my errant 's' and removed it.
Speaking of victimhood, how nice to be reminded that I have to pace myself in order to type out something longer than the snappy comebacks that so many here dislike so much.  And how much my hands hurt when I bother.  

Good thing it's women veterans support group Friday.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#137 Palisades

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 10:50 AM

^ Yes, good thing.
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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#138 Balderdash

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 11:25 AM

View PostPalisade, on Mar 26 2010, 08:45 AM, said:

Well, in the time it took you to compose that expression of victimhood with it ode to "spoiled modern," I'd already noticed my errant 's' and removed it.


Victimhood!?  WTH?

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#139 Palisades

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 11:30 AM

^ She said she was a victim, did she not?
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#140 Balderdash

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 11:36 AM

View PostPalisade, on Mar 26 2010, 09:30 AM, said:

^ She said she was a victim, did she not?


Anybody who can read will be able to read past your parsing.

And actually, reading back over the posts in question, she didn't use the word victim, you did.

Edited by Balderdash, 26 March 2010 - 11:46 AM.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC




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