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First openly gay bishop

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#41 Drew

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:09 PM

Josh, on Aug 6 2003, 02:58 PM, said:

Frankly, yes it is. What would happen if your scriptures said that being black was a sin? Would that be taken to heart as well?
If that's what scripture said (as ridiculous as that suggestion is) then I would expect anyone who claimed to follow that scripture to support that viewpoint.

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All I can see from my personal viewpoint is the discrimination against an entire group of people who simply ARE who they are... and who will spend the majority of their lives fighting against societal pressure which declares them alien to that same society.

Discrimination by whom? By a public body? By the federal government? No. By a religious organization which has its freedom guaranteed by the first amendment. Even the freedom to discriminate.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#42 ArmourMe

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:10 PM

Thank you, Lil!  Saved me some typing & temper fraying, that did  :)

#43 ArmourMe

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:11 PM

Josh, on Aug 6 2003, 07:58 PM, said:

^

Frankly, yes it is. What would happen if your scriptures said that being black was a sin? Would that be taken to heart as well?

All I can see from my personal viewpoint is the discrimination against an entire group of people who simply ARE who they are... and who will spend the majority of their lives fighting against societal pressure which declares them alien to that same society.

It's wrong.
Damn, and Thank you Joshy!  Beautifully said.

#44 Drew

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:12 PM

EDIT: Clone.

Edited by Drew, 06 August 2003 - 03:13 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#45 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:12 PM

You are most welcome AM.

You shoulda seen it BEFORE I edited it.

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#46 ArmourMe

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:14 PM

Drew, on Aug 6 2003, 08:09 PM, said:

Josh, on Aug 6 2003, 02:58 PM, said:

Frankly, yes it is. What would happen if your scriptures said that being black was a sin? Would that be taken to heart as well?
If that's what scripture said (as ridiculous as that suggestion is) then I would expect anyone who claimed to follow that scripture to support that viewpoint.

Why is it ridiculous???

#47 Drew

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:15 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Aug 6 2003, 03:12 PM, said:

You shoulda seen it BEFORE I edited it.
I suspect my unedited version was even more incendiary.  :p
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#48 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:17 PM

^

I think the better question is why is it so easy to dismiss the idea that someone's ethnicity can be a sin while so easily embracing the idea that someone's sexuality IS a sin.

Lil
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#49 Drew

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:17 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Aug 6 2003, 03:12 PM, said:

You shoulda seen it BEFORE I edited it.
I suspect my unedited version was even more incendiary.  :p
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#50 Drew

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:21 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Aug 6 2003, 03:17 PM, said:

I think the better question is why is it so easy to dismiss the idea that someone's ethnicity can be a sin while so easily embracing the idea that someone's sexuality IS a sin.
Racial identity is not the same thing as a sex act. I should think that would be obvious.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#51 Drew

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:22 PM

EDIT: Okay, the cloning is what's ridiculous.

Edited by Drew, 06 August 2003 - 03:23 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#52 Josh

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:25 PM

^

BULL. The identity of being straight is NO different than the identity of being gay. Just because they "MIGHT" have sex with members of the same race (and even then that's a leap as I know plenty of gay people who are SO FREAKING ASHAMED OF WHO THEY ARE THAT THEY REFUSE TO HAVE SEX) doesn't make them ANY more justified to be discriminated against.
"THE UNICORNS ARE NOT TO BE TRIFLED WITH!" - John Burke.

#53 Julie

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:25 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Aug 6 2003, 04:17 PM, said:

I think the better question is why is it so easy to dismiss the idea that someone's ethnicity can be a sin while so easily embracing the idea that someone's sexuality IS a sin.
I think the even better question is how you can take offense to being called part of a "hive mind" (which implies that you believe what you're told without thinking it through yourself) while saying that those who believe that homosexuality is a sin "so easily embrace the idea" (which implies that they quickly believe what they've been told without fully thinking it through).

#54 Drew

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:32 PM

Josh, on Aug 6 2003, 03:25 PM, said:

BULL. The identity of being straight is NO different than the identity of being gay. Just because they "MIGHT" have sex with members of the same race (and even then that's a leap as I know plenty of gay people who are SO FREAKING ASHAMED OF WHO THEY ARE THAT THEY REFUSE TO HAVE SEX) doesn't make them ANY more justified to be discriminated against.
I wasn't contrasting "gay identity" with "straight identity." I was contrasting it with racial identity.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#55 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:32 PM

Julie, on Aug 6 2003, 01:25 PM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Aug 6 2003, 04:17 PM, said:

I think the better question is why is it so easy to dismiss the idea that someone's ethnicity can be a sin while so easily embracing the idea that someone's sexuality IS a sin.
I think the even better question is how you can take offense to being called part of a "hive mind" (which implies that you believe what you're told without thinking it through yourself) while saying that those who believe that homosexuality is a sin "so easily embrace the idea" (which implies that they quickly believe what they've been told without fully thinking it through).
Only that's not what I said.

If you will review all the posts in this thread you will see that I am referring SPECIFICALLY to Drew.

Drew said:  

Quote

Racial identity is not the same thing as a sex act. I should think that would be obvious.

Oh and Drew, here I thought you drew a distinction between "homosexuality" and "homosexual acts".  I guess whichever one is convenient for you at the time aye? :rolleyes:

And well, as you know, I absolutely disagree with the argument that, for purposes of acceptance, morality or discrimination there is a whit of difference between sexuality and ethnicity.

Lil

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 06 August 2003 - 03:34 PM.

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#56 QuiGon John

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:32 PM

May I just say to both Lil and Drew (and to anyone else who did the same), thanks for editing out the most incendiary parts!  It's much appreciated, as it makes my life much easier and keeps discussion of this tricky issue as respectful to both sides as possible. :)

I love the ability to edit text.  I wish we had it in Real Life. ;)

#57 Drew

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:35 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Aug 6 2003, 03:32 PM, said:

Oh and Drew, here I thought you drew a distinction between "homosexuality" and "homosexual acts".
Where have I stated otherwise?

Quote

And well, as you know, I absolutely disagree with the argument that, for purposes of acceptance, morality or discrimination there is a whit of difference between sexuality and ethnicity.

And I can't place them anywhere near the same level.

Edited by Drew, 06 August 2003 - 03:38 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#58 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:37 PM

You are welcome John.


For my part I wish that people would not start accusing people of being part of a hive mind simply because they don't agree with them.  It is not productive or constructive and it's more than annoying.

Lil
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#59 ArmourMe

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:37 PM

BEING queer is NOT about DOING any act or not doing any act.  It is as much about identity as race, and as involuntary.  If being queer or straight was a choice, you could choose to have sexual feelings for men with a simple decision.

If this Bishop is allowed marital relations under his creed, he is, if he's NOT allowed any marital relations, if his creed expectes celibacy.....IS HE ANY LESS GAY?  Of course not.

#60 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 03:39 PM

Quote

Racial identity is not the same thing as a sex act. I should think that would be obvious.

You are comparing IDENTITY with ACTS in this post.

This is inconsistent with your many posts in which you have distinguished between homosexuality and the act of gay sex.

Lil
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