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First openly gay bishop

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#81 prolog

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 04:57 PM

ArmourMe, on Aug 6 2003, 09:15 PM, said:

Its awfully easy to determine whether its inherant or not - straight people out there!  Try to become queer!  Just see if you start to like it!  Its all just a decision after all!   Or IS it?  :devil:  :angel:  :p
Ack!  What is this?  I can't turn gay!  Girls...too...hot!   Mind...wandering... ;)

#82 Drew

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 04:59 PM

Quote

You then started in with the "this is a Christian thing so go away if you're not Christian" type of thing . . .

Did not. I said . . . (Sigh) . . . I said that it was an internal matter, and not a matter of public (i.e., government) policy. I never said "go away." Please don't put words in my mouth.
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#83 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 05:02 PM

^

I wasn't putting words in your mouth (note the words "type of thing") but letting you know how it came across.

And Drew it really did come off that way to me.  I reminded me of an adult telling little kids to make themselves scarce so the grownups could talk.  Again, not putting words in your mouth but informing you of how they came across to me.
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#84 Nick

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 05:12 PM

Drew, on Aug 6 2003, 02:52 PM, said:

In the portion you quoted, I was talking about sex outside of marriage.

However, the hive-mind seems to think that having an actively homosexual Episcopalian bishop is unquestioningly a Good Thing™.
I applaud this decision by the episcopal church because they are the first mainstream denomination to have an openly homosexual man in such a high position.  Now, as an Agnostic, I'm in no way a part of this church, so it doesn't affect me directly, nor do I have a whole lot of say in the matter.

I started this thread, and continue to think this is a good thing, simply because this man is being accepted regardless of his sexual orientation.  Now, if I'm understanding one of the main points of the argument against this man--it's that scripture forbids pre-marital sex--so regardless of *who* he's having sex with, he isn't married, and that is, by definition, a sin.

I won't argue that point beyond the fact that it wasn't stated *what* his sex life is, or if he's chosen to remain celibate.  Just because the man is gay doesn't mean he's going out to clubs after every sermon, and hooking up with men left and right, or even having sexual interaction with men at all.

As has been mentioned, sexual identity is different from sexual acts.  How does a heterosexual know they're straight before they've had sex?  The same way a homosexual knows they're gay before they've had sex.

Here's the clincher: There exist many openly gay, and certain of that fact, VIRGINS.

I'm not suggesting this bishop has never performed a sexual act with another man, simply that he can be an openly gay man, tho may not be sexually active at present.  It just simply hasn't been stated.

But on the grounds of him being gay alone, all else being equal, you're damn right I think it's a good thing.  It's mainstream acceptance of something I really wish *weren't* an issue anymore.

-Nick

#85 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 05:16 PM

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But on the grounds of him being gay alone, all else being equal, you're damn right I think it's a good thing. It's mainstream acceptance of something I really wish *weren't* an issue anymore.

LONG LOUD ENTHUSIASTIC APPLAUSE!!!!!!!!!!

Beautifully summed up sir!

:D

Lil
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#86 Josh

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 05:18 PM

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But on the grounds of him being gay alone, all else being equal, you're damn right I think it's a good thing.  It's mainstream acceptance of something I really wish *weren't* an issue anymore.

BRAVO!!!!

////Nick
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#87 Rhea

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 05:25 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Aug 6 2003, 01:12 PM, said:

You are most welcome AM.

You shoulda seen it BEFORE I edited it.

Lil
Damn! I go away and miss all the good stuff! :p :p

{{{{{{{{{Lil}}}}}}}}}}
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#88 Rhea

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 05:28 PM

Josh, on Aug 6 2003, 01:55 PM, said:

Quote

If it could be proven without a doubt that homosexual urges are genetically determined, you might have a point. However, race is definitely genetically determined. No question there. And as such, it can't be considered equal to sexual identity.

Only the people who are gay can tell you that they didn't choose it... and of course, you wouldn't believe them anyway because that would mean accepting that GOD created them which would of course mean that the scriptures could actually be WRONG! NO, THAT CAN'T BE POSSIBLE!

I look forward to the day when it is proven that being gay has genetic roots. A lot of people will be eating crow.
{{{{{{{{{Josh}}}}}}}}}

**smooch**

Oh, yeah! And {{{{{{{{{{AM}}}}}}}}}} also a *smooch*
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#89 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 06:04 PM

Rhea, on Aug 6 2003, 03:25 PM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Aug 6 2003, 01:12 PM, said:

You are most welcome AM.

You shoulda seen it BEFORE I edited it.

Lil
Damn! I go away and miss all the good stuff! :p :p

{{{{{{{{{Lil}}}}}}}}}}
Nah, I edited before I even posted it.

That's right.  :eek:

;)

Lil
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#90 Drew

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 06:12 PM

Lil, ironically, you're probably the only person with an opposing viewpoint who's been posting here today with whom I feel there's a possibility of having a reasonable discussion on this issue.

Now why is that?

Edited by Drew, 06 August 2003 - 06:14 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#91 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 06:17 PM

:blush:

Well thanks!

I kinda think that we're all capable of discussing this reasonably though.

Maybe you and I have been on the sparring rollercoaster for so long that we've gotten past certain things.

I dunno.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment.:)
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#92 Drew

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 06:49 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Aug 6 2003, 04:41 PM, said:

I kinda think that we're all capable of discussing this reasonably though.
Oh, I don't.  :pout:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#93 Uncle Sid

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 09:34 PM

I wasn't going to comment on this, but since it made it to three pages of posts, I might as well.  

First off, as a private organization, the Episcopal Church has a right to ordain anyone they want to, gay, bi, straight, male, or female, married or celibate.  As long as they don't start committing crimes, that's fine.  

Can I consider it a good thing?  For the Episcopal Church, I'm not sure.  I can't really say that I'm overly surprised, though.  I expected this for quite awhile, especially when people saw that the church didn't fall apart after they ordained women.  That certainly would have made people significantly braver in regards to making other so-called progressive changes.  

If I can divorce my personal views from the matter, I can see a significant problem, which is at the crux of the debate.  

Now, let's face it, ordaining someone openly gay is significantly different than ordaining a woman or married priests.  For one thing, the reason that in the Catholic Church woman and married people are not ordained is not because being a woman or married is a sin, but more of a traditional sort of thing.  They are strong traditions, but they are not in place because of prohibitions on being either female or married.  Certainly there are married priests in the Catholic Church even today, and it used to be perfectly acceptable for the first few centuries of Christianity.

On the other hand, whether you like it or not, there is doctrinal and scriptural evidence that supports the position that acting as a homosexual (not necessarily simply *being* homosexual in inclination) is a sin.  This would apply not only in the Catholic Church, but a case for it could be made in the Episcopal Church as well.  The two churches are not hugely different in doctrine.  

Taking that into account, then, it's not a problem for a church that believes that way to employ gay individuals as bishops, per se.  After all, I can't imagine a priest who is anything more than human in terms of having committed sins.  However, when they practice what may well be considered sinful actively and openly, then it is matter for pause.  It's not a matter of traditions, as it would be with celibacy or women, it's a matter of consistency in teaching.  By consecrating an openly gay bishop, who makes not even the pretense of being contrite and most definitely has a partner, the Episcopal Church is not only saying that they have a gay bishop, but it's good to be gay since a bishop is not only a role model, but also a teacher with great individual authority.   Approving someone to that post is a very strong statement, even if the bishop is rather subdued about his activities afterwards.  And that is a serious situation which is much more worthy of schism than any number of women or married priests and bishops.  

Again, it's not a question of whether a gay person is more evil than any other person.  I have no doubt that this bishop is probably a good man relative to quite a few people.  Evertheless, the question turns into whether that church has now overstepped it's bounds by making this pronouncement.  Christianity isn't the United States government.  Not even a 3/4th vote in three legislative bodies can change the law of God.  If that church raises leaders who could be argued to be sinning openly and actively, a large number of the adherents might well wonder why they are following them.  The Catholic Church learned that lesson the hard way too.  

As for me personally, it's an unfortunate turn of events.  I had been hoping that in the next century or two the Episcopal Church and the Orthodox Church would be able to re-integrate with the Catholic Church.  The differences between them are a lot less than one might think, and many could be settled now that most of the fingers of religion have been removed from the temporal pie.  Unfortunately, the Catholic Church isn't going to bend very easily at all on the matter of homosexuality and that will likely make any re-unification that much more difficult.  Well, the one thing that was never promised by Christ was unity, I guess.
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#94 ArmourMe

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 09:37 PM

Rhea, on Aug 6 2003, 10:28 PM, said:

{{{{{{{{{Josh}}}}}}}}}

**smooch**

Oh, yeah! And {{{{{{{{{{AM}}}}}}}}}} also a *smooch*
Its a lovefest :D :D :D  *smoooooooooooch* Rhea!  :)

#95 ArmourMe

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 09:39 PM

Drew, on Aug 6 2003, 09:21 PM, said:

I'll just say this. "Diversity," "tolerance," and "acceptance" are not one-way streets.
Drew - I'm incredibly tolerant.  Where in this thread or in any thread do I condemn your right to your faith?  I"m not trying to challenge you - I'm trying to honestly understand where you are comming from.

I've never understood discrimination.  I never will - I've gotta stop banging my head on this particular wall, cause it just pisses me off to talk to people who believe, at the end of the day, that I shouldn't have the same rights they do because of my ABILITY TO LOVE.

#96 ArmourMe

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 09:40 PM

Nick, on Aug 6 2003, 10:12 PM, said:

But on the grounds of him being gay alone, all else being equal, you're damn right I think it's a good thing.  It's mainstream acceptance of something I really wish *weren't* an issue anymore.

-Nick
THANK YOU Nick!!!!  Well said!

#97 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 09:41 PM

Quote

By consecrating an openly gay bishop, who makes not even the pretense of being contrite and most definitely has a partner, the Episcopal Church is not only saying that they have a gay bishop, but it's good to be gay since a bishop is not only a role model, but also a teacher with great individual authority.

Yeah.  And I LOVE it.

See Drew I TOLD you that someone who agreed with you would chime in!

:)

Lil
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#98 Drew

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 09:59 PM

ArmourMe, on Aug 6 2003, 09:39 PM, said:

I've gotta stop banging my head on this particular wall, cause it just pisses me off to talk to people who believe, at the end of the day, that I shouldn't have the same rights they do because of my ABILITY TO LOVE.
Becoming a bishop in the Episcopal church is not a right.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#99 DWF

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 10:06 PM

I think way too much attention is being devoted to this, if people are going to leave the parish, or church this'll be a convenent excuse. :(
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#100 Drew

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 10:13 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Aug 6 2003, 09:41 PM, said:

See Drew I TOLD you that someone who agreed with you would chime in!
Actually, you may not have realized it, but I never really gave my opinion on the decision itself.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."



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