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Should Davis be on the recall ballot?

California Gray Davis Recall election 2003

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 03:30 PM

The argument is simple:

The recall ballot is a two-step affair.

1) Should the governor be recalled?

2) If the governor is recalled, who should the new governor be?

<I'm paraphrasing>

Here's the problem: Hypothetically, 49.5% of the people could say Davis *shouldn't* be recalled... and then somebody else could be elected with 20% of the vote. This would mean that Davis, effectively, got more votes than the competition, and would still be recalled.

This strikes me as blatantly unfair. What do you think?
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#2 Drew

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 03:46 PM

I guess I assumed that he would be on the ballot unless he speciically chose not to. So you mean he's not?
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#3 Rov Judicata

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:02 PM

Drew, on Aug 7 2003, 01:46 PM, said:

I guess I assumed that he would be on the ballot unless he speciically chose not to. So you mean he's not?
That's correct. He's suing for the right to be on the ballot.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#4 Drew

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:04 PM

Weird. I guess when I hear "Recall" I think "Do-Over," and I just assumed he'd be part of it again. How else can the people who opposed the recall communicate that they still want him to be their leader? Practically speaking, the petition doesn't just force a recall, but forces his removal.

Edited by Drew, 07 August 2003 - 04:06 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#5 jon3831

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:10 PM

^There are two questions to decide on the recall.

1) "Shall Davis be removed from office?"

That's a yes or no answer. If the majority of voters say "no", then it's over. Davis continues, and it's status quo.

If they say "yes", then that's where the second part kicks in:

2) "If Davis is removed, then who shall replace him?"

Davis is trying to be on the ballot for people to replace himself.

Potentially, it leads to a situation where a majority of voters say he should be removed, and then a small portion successfully vote for Davis to be Davis' replacement.

Not entirely convinced that's what they had in mind when they wrote the recall law, but...
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#6 Rov Judicata

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:11 PM

Drew, on Aug 7 2003, 02:04 PM, said:

Weird. I guess when I hear "Recall" I think "Do-Over," and I just assumed he'd be part of it again. How else can the people who opposed the recall communicate that they still want him to be their leader? Practically speaking, the petition doesn't just force a recall, but forces his removal.
As mentioned, it's a two-part ballot.

If 50% + 1 votes NOT to recall him, then he stays. However, as it stands now, he can be recalled by 50 % 1, <Meaning that 49.9% wanted him to stay>, and be replaced by a candidate who receives 20% of the vote.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#7 Rhea

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:19 PM

Drew, on Aug 7 2003, 02:04 PM, said:

Weird. I guess when I hear "Recall" I think "Do-Over," and I just assumed he'd be part of it again. How else can the people who opposed the recall communicate that they still want him to be their leader? Practically speaking, the petition doesn't just force a recall, but forces his removal.
California has the goofiest recall laws in the country, and they've never been tested before. There are 5 or 6 suits currently outstanding on various portions of the recall law:

1) Can Davis be on the ballot (well, hell, I think he should be, too, but so far it's undecided, believe it or not)

2) Most of California counties are unprepared to do justice to an October recall (ye old government snailiness, meaning they can't get ready that fast).

3) There is a legitimate argument that if they DO vote to recall Davis the Lt. Governor should take over (that's kinda what he's there for ;) ).

And others that I've forgotten since I read about them over my morning coffee. :p :p
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


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#8 Bad Wolf

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:22 PM

Basically, if 50% plus one vote to recall Davis, he's out.  Which to me is just ridiculous.

:wacko:
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#9 Josh

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:22 PM

^

Wait a sec... 50% PLUS one vote? What the hell?

What happened just to 50%?
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#10 Bad Wolf

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:26 PM

Um.......it's supposed to be a majority??

:unsure:
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#11 jon3831

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:26 PM

Yeah, 50% isn't a majority. That's just half.

50%+1 is a majority.
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                    --General Russell E. Dougherty, USAF

WWCELeMD?

#12 Josh

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:28 PM

^

<turns his brain on>

Wow, that feels so much better! I can't believe I've spent my entire life with it off!
"THE UNICORNS ARE NOT TO BE TRIFLED WITH!" - John Burke.

#13 QuiGon John

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:35 PM

Rhea, on Aug 7 2003, 05:19 PM, said:

3) There is a legitimate argument that if they DO vote to recall Davis the Lt. Governor should take over (that's kinda what he's there for ;) ).
You know, that's the best point against this whole muddle that I have heard.  I mean, presumably the Lt. Governor in a case like this won't be very popular, as he's part of the administration, too... but still, there's a chain of command to be followed...

I like the idea of giving the people an option to recall a governor who's done a poor job... but it does seem California should have thought this through a little more beforehand... ;)

#14 Rov Judicata

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:38 PM

John Burke, on Aug 7 2003, 02:35 PM, said:

... but it does seem California should have thought this through a little more beforehand... ;)
... there may be a pattern here... ;) :angel:

*runs*
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#15 Josh

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:38 PM

^

Dude, it's FREAKIN' CALIFORNIA! :p :p :p

*runs with him*

This could get ugly. ;)
"THE UNICORNS ARE NOT TO BE TRIFLED WITH!" - John Burke.

#16 Chipper

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 05:07 PM

:rolleyes:

Anyone want a leash to catch those two?
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#17 Rhea

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 05:22 PM

Chipper, on Aug 7 2003, 03:07 PM, said:

:rolleyes:

Anyone want a leash to catch those two?
I figure Lil will be along to take care of those two shortly. She's the best at smiting. I'm the best at.... well, actually you already KNOW what I'm the best at.  ;)
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#18 Nick

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 01:13 PM

The door swings both ways tho . . . what about this possibility:

For the sake of illustration, let's say there's a landslide against Davis . . . 70% or something voting YES to recall him.

If Davis is allowed to be on the ballot again as a candidate . . . and he wins w/ 20% . . . when 70% were essentially voting for *anyone but him* . . . It kinda cripples the whole point of a recall in the first place.

-Nick

#19 Nick

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 01:13 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Aug 7 2003, 04:38 PM, said:

John Burke, on Aug 7 2003, 02:35 PM, said:

... but it does seem California should have thought this through a little more beforehand... ;)
... there may be a pattern here... ;) :angel:

*runs*
As a Floridian who got mocked by lots of my Californian friends over the whole presidential election thing . . . well . . . I just have to laugh now that California's election process is *soooo* much more of a circus than FL's!  :p

*sprints off towards Rov & Josh*

Edited by Nick, 19 August 2003 - 01:14 PM.


#20 HubcapDave

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 01:39 PM

Quote

As a Floridian who got mocked by lots of my Californian friends over the whole presidential election thing . . . well . . . I just have to laugh now that California's election process is *soooo* much more of a circus than FL's! [tongue.gif]

It's only a circus because the media is playing it up as such!

Here's why the vote makes sense the way it  is structured:

The fact that there may be more votes against the recall (that doesn't necessarily mean they are voting *for* Davis. My mother is voing against the recall, and she thinks Gray is a turkey!) than there would be for whoever might replace  Davis is irrelevant, because the majority still voted to recall Davis in the first place!

As for him not being able to place himself on the ballot, I think it would be absolutely stupid to let him on the ballot! He is not running against these other replacement candidates; he's basically running to keep his job! Him putting his name as a replacement would subvert the whole question of the recall in the first place, and would solve nothing that the recall is trying to solve.



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