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What do you think of the new Starbuck?


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#1 Cylon Centurion

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 08:31 AM

I know this issue has been very controversial within the Galactica fandom but I just wondered what fans of science fiction in general thought of the gender change. Is the change to drastic or are you curious to see how the change plays out?
Posted Image
Pic not seen on Gateworld.Net, Official Battlestar Galactica Website or Genreonline.net

Starbuck link on Gateworld to confirm the validity of my statement:
http://www.gateworld...ers/trace.shtml

Link to Pictures from the Official Battlestar Galactica Website:
http://www.scifi.com...star/downloads/

Link to Pictures from GenreOnline.Net:
http://www.genreonli...a_1_Sci-Fi.html

Edited by Cylon Centurion, 14 August 2003 - 08:39 AM.

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#2 MovieImp

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 08:59 AM

I think we have taken to calling her "Stardoe" around here.  As for me, IMHO, I seriously don't like the change in gender.  Starbuck was a guy and my favorite character and should have stayed that way.  It's the one major major hangup I have about the nuGalactica.
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#3 Cylon Centurion

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 09:09 AM

I have seen the "Stardoe" reference at other places. There is an interesting story as to how Kara Thrace earned the callsign "Starbuck". It is mentioned in the mini but I won't play spoiler even though I want to. :p

Edited by Cylon Centurion, 14 August 2003 - 09:10 AM.

"All of a sudden, my e-mails went through the roof. Suddenly I was accused of teaming up with Ron Moore and creating just a slap in the face of all these people, and I didn't want to slap anybody." - Edward James Olmos

#4 MovieImp

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 09:16 AM

Oh feel free to play spoiler. ... Just give it lot's of spoiler space and label to so people can look or not look if they want to or not.  

I am curious as I saw absolutely no need to change the genders of either Starbuck or Boomer to females.
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#5 Drew

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 09:21 AM

I don't know what's sillier--the unnecessary changes made to the BG premise and characters, or the overwrought reactions from the fans. Makes me want to sit on the sidelines and jeer everyone.  :cool:

No, I think Starbuck and Boomer should have remained male. If they wanted a hot-shot female pilot, Sheba was available. Heck, they could have made Cassiopeia into a pilot, if they'd wanted, and I wouldn't have cared too much. (Though I prefered her as the Mary Magdalen character she was in the original--the "dirty solicitor" who cleans up her act.)
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#6 CBGSpender

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 09:23 AM

MovieImp, on Aug 14 2003, 02:16 PM, said:

Oh feel free to play spoiler. ...
Oh yes Ted please do. Tell us how it all happens! We just have to know. C'mon Ted You can do it.

Tell us how it's done.

Edited by CBGSpender, 14 August 2003 - 09:25 AM.


#7 Cylon Centurion

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 09:27 AM

These are a couple of explanations that the two producers made online:

Here is the answer from producer David Eick:
"In truth, there was less agonizing over this decision than you might imagine. We wanted to demonstrate how men and women fight alongside each other in this world (which, to further my "contemporary reality" reference above, reflects a modern truth that's different than it was in 1978), and how their loyalty to each other as soldiers and warriors supersedes stereotypical relationship dynamics (sexual tension, etc.).

In the original Battlestar Galactica, Starbuck and Apollo are the quintessential "brothers in arms" a nod to the great male/male relationship descendants of William Goldman's Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. So changing Starbuck to a woman while maintaining the nature and energy of the Starbuck-Apollo relationship seemed an appropriate way to make our point about warrior loyalty in a new way."

Here is an answer from Ron Moore:
"I've gone into this before, but to briefly restate it, I felt that making Starbuck a woman would provide greater creative opportunities in the show and was a way of avoiding what I felt would be cliches in the "rogue pilot with a heart of gold" once Dirk Benedict (whose personal charm was such that he made the cliches go down a little easier) was removed from the equation. Boomer was a similar process, but given the deeper truth about Boomer in the mini, turning the character into a woman provided other opportunities down the road.

I felt that adding Sheba into the mini would a) destroy the essence of who Sheba was, namely the daughter of Cain, and a squadron leader in her own right who's been doing the role of Apollo off on another battlestar when the Galactica finally catches up to them somewhere down the road -- put in Sheba now and you can forget about doing the story of the Pegasus later; and b) she would be fighting for a role to play other than sitting in the cockpit and shooting at Cylons given that Starbuck & Apollo have their own storylines, Boomer has hers and what would another major pilot role do in the mini? The character of Athena also presented problems in that they never seemed to figure out what she should do even in the original show other than be beautiful and provide a love interest for Starbuck."

In the script the reason that Kara Thrace earned the callsign is somewhat explained in this dialogue in the early draft script:
Kara (30s) is a loner, which makes her an oddity among the tight-knit pilots. She's as
undisciplined and rebellious out of the cockpit as she is calculating and precise in it. Her mouth
has definitely held back her career. And she dislikes Tigh. She tosses in a stack of chips.
Tigh (40s) pours himself another drink. He's well into his cups by now. He's the ship's executive
officer (or XO). He's tightly wound, moody, prone to outbursts of temper. And he dislikes Kara.
He studies his cards, looks up at Kara...
TIGH
(derisive)
"Starbuck". Now there's a call sign. Starbuck. How'd
you get that nickname, anyway? Never did hear the full
story.
(takes a drink)
Was it before you got thrown in the brig as a cadet for
drunk and disorderly or after?
KARA
After.
TIGH
After. That's right, it was after.
(tosses in chips)
Thirty and thirty more.
KARA
(casual)
How's the wife?
The room goes deathly silent. Glances between the other pilots. Tigh freezes for a beat. She's
definitely touched a sensitive and dangerous nerve.
"All of a sudden, my e-mails went through the roof. Suddenly I was accused of teaming up with Ron Moore and creating just a slap in the face of all these people, and I didn't want to slap anybody." - Edward James Olmos

#8 Christopher

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 09:48 AM

Dirk Benedict's Starbuck was just about my least favorite BG character, so I welcome the change.
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#9 gaius claudius

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 09:59 AM

Changing Starbuck into a woman I can live with....I loved Dirk Benedict's portrayal, but this new version isn't going to kill.....I was more upset with Col. Tigh and Boomer being changed from being Black....let me tell ya..its more then annoying to be a black fan of sci-fi...and in most mainstream sci-fi...especially scenes of the future...minorities have all just mysteriously disappeared..Star Trek being the major exception that comes to mind. :glare:
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#10 Cylon Centurion

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 10:08 AM

I wish they had kept Colonel Tigh Black. The only black cast member in the series who plays a role in the story is Dualla.
Posted Image

She is played by Kandyse McClure and I think she is a very attractive woman.
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"All of a sudden, my e-mails went through the roof. Suddenly I was accused of teaming up with Ron Moore and creating just a slap in the face of all these people, and I didn't want to slap anybody." - Edward James Olmos

#11 Norville

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 10:12 AM

Well, whoever you are, my contempt toward certain details of this new production includes:
- Starbuck and Boomer as women (and Boomer as Asian, not black)... couldn't just create new female characters and improve the characters that were already there, right?
- Tigh as white and hated by the pilots because he's a drunk...
- Apollo hating Adama and blaming him, I guess to create a bit of dysfunctional family fun (can't have a good, strong family in these times; it's considered unnatural now)...
- The Cylon being a sexpot chick and seducing Baltar...

Oh, whatever. It sounds utterly tiresome, but sure, I'll give it a chance. (Mind you, I don't get the Sci-Fi Channel, so won't even see it until I get someone to provide me with a tape. I'm not sure I'll go to the trouble.)

CC or Ted, whoever you are, instead of using up bandwidth, could you post links to your photos, please? Thanks. (Frankly, I don't want to see a huge shot of Stardoe here, but that's not the only reason...)

Edited by Norville, 14 August 2003 - 10:13 AM.

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#12 ultraviolet

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 10:27 AM

I'll leave my final judgement until after I watch the mini-series (even though I think a BSG remake is not needed and it goes too far from the original).     i do think Sci-Fi would have made everyone happier if they did a sequel to the original series or a spin-off.     The remake (and reimaging) just doesn't sit well with many BSG fans.    And given the screwed up development process (and corporate exec meddling), I think SCI-FI should have never made this remake at all.    They should have just waited for Signer and DeSanto, and went back to the original plans those two have (before exec medddling).    It is too clear, that everyone involved is trying to make the concept their own by changing it too much and using the BSG name to do it.     I think this is the biggest mistake everyone could have made and they betrayed the original source material.    They are basically saying the original BSG fans aren't important.

Whether the new BSG was a remake or a sequel (or spin-off), they should have respected the material and give the BSG fans something that was as good as teh original BSG.   No matter how much I like or hate the new mini-series, I know the remake is just a bastardization that the fans didn't want at all.

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#13 Cylon Centurion

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 10:27 AM

Norville, on Aug 14 2003, 03:12 PM, said:

- Starbuck and Boomer as women (and Boomer as Asian, not black)... couldn't just create new female characters and improve the characters that were already there, right?
- Tigh as white and hated by the pilots because he's a drunk...
- Apollo hating Adama and blaming him, I guess to create a bit of dysfunctional family fun (can't have a good, strong family in these times; it's considered unnatural now)...
- The Cylon being a sexpot chick and seducing Baltar...
1.The Starbuck/Boomer gender change was a creative change by Moore. It is Battlestar Galactica and has said from the beginning he has reimagined the series. To simply turn Starbuck and Boomer into minor background characters and introduce two new women characters in their place would go further than reimagining. Moore explains his changes in the post I made earlier.

2. Have you seen "In Harm's Way"? Colonel Tigh's character is very similar to Kirk Douglass's character in that film. However, when the chips were on the line, Tigh and Kirk's character performed their duties well. I do not find the fact that he is an alcoholic to be a detraction. Quite to the contrary, I think him fighting his alcoholism and rising to perform his duties in humanity's time of need is more compelling. There is a scene where he thinks about picking up one last drink but when Starbuck tells him that he did what he did, he decided not to take that drink. Battling inner demons like Garibaldi did in B5 will make this character very interesting.

3. I know alot has been made by fans that Apollo and Adama are estranged at the beginning of the story. However by the end, the two have made amends and Apollo realizes that it was not entirely his father's fault. Personally, I think repairing old wounds was a nice touch in how Moore played off the death of Zak.

4. How many James Bond movies have female spies who sleep with Bond to try and get info? Number Six was just doing what she had to do to complete her mission to destroy humanity. She played on Baltar's weakness which is a good looking woman. Now, you know many great men in history have fallen to the guiles of beautiful women so Baltar falling and being used by a woman is an interesting play on how Baltar betrayed humanity.

Once again, these are my opinions and I am not an official representative of the production. I am just a Battlestar fan with a different perspective.
"All of a sudden, my e-mails went through the roof. Suddenly I was accused of teaming up with Ron Moore and creating just a slap in the face of all these people, and I didn't want to slap anybody." - Edward James Olmos

#14 Drew

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 11:10 AM

Cylon Centurion, on Aug 14 2003, 10:27 AM, said:

4. How many James Bond movies have female spies who sleep with Bond to try and get info? Number Six was just doing what she had to do to complete her mission to destroy humanity. She played on Baltar's weakness which is a good looking woman. Now, you know many great men in history have fallen to the guiles of beautiful women so Baltar falling and being used by a woman is an interesting play on how Baltar betrayed humanity.
M'eh. I choose to view it as a cynical attempt to introduce sex 'n' sleaze to the series.

Hi, Soton. I see you lurking in this thread. Will you come out of hiding and say hello, already?!  :cool:

Edited by Drew, 14 August 2003 - 11:11 AM.

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#15 larocque6689

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 01:15 PM

Cylon Centurion, on Aug 14 2003, 02:09 PM, said:

There is an interesting story as to how Kara Thrace earned the callsign "Starbuck". It is mentioned in the mini but I won't play spoiler even though I want to. :p

I seriously doubt it has anything to do with Moby Dick. Or a Cup of Joe. Interesting name given that most of the other names in the original series had more classical origins.

#16 larocque6689

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 01:18 PM

Cylon Centurion, on Aug 14 2003, 03:27 PM, said:

2. Have you seen "In Harm's Way"? Colonel Tigh's character is very similar to Kirk Douglass's character in that film.
Yeah, I have! Rather than duplicate content, here's a link to the topic at www.scifi.com

http://www.scifi.com...se.php?aid=4988

#17 Cylon Centurion

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 01:26 PM

John,

I am glad someone else picked up on the In Harm's Way reference to the Tigh character. What I like most about the characters in this BSG, is that all of them have some sort of personal demons just like real people but when they need to pulll together for the common goal despite their differences they do. I think the Starbuck/Tigh scene at the end really ties things up with how even personal disputes can be put aside for the common good. Remember, Starbuck does deck Tigh in the beginning and has made no so secret of how little she respects him but after the Cylon attack, she comes to Tigh and says he did the right thing. She didn't have to do that but she did. So to me, the story says that people can put differences aside for the common good and achieve greater things.

Ted

Edited by Cylon Centurion, 14 August 2003 - 01:36 PM.

"All of a sudden, my e-mails went through the roof. Suddenly I was accused of teaming up with Ron Moore and creating just a slap in the face of all these people, and I didn't want to slap anybody." - Edward James Olmos

#18 larocque6689

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 01:43 PM

All the same, In Harm's Way spotlights yet another despicable three-dimensional character from Kirk Douglas.

Moore seems to  have borrowed more than a bit for the new Tigh. In "Harm's Way", Douglas's  wife has been cheating on him. In the opening sequence of the movie (which begins with the Pearl Harbor attack), she and her lover are strafted by Japanese bullets. Later Douglas is asked to identify the body. He boozes, and he even commits rape, impregnating the fiance of John Wayne's son in the movie. HIs one "redemptive" act is the the suicide mission from which he would undoubtedly die. A heroic punishment for an evil deed. Not quite heroism in the conventional sense, quite a dislikeable character but compelling.

Again, not my favourite John Wayne movie, but worth a watch, if just to see Kirk Douglas play one of his best  "heel"  characters. Good Duke acting as always, even if he doesn't fire a gun!

#19 Cardie

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 01:49 PM

Apropos In Harm's Way links, the BSG mini airs on December 7, Pearl Harbor Day. Probably a conscious choice by the network, although fodder for many more swipes as well.  :blink:

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#20 Cylon Centurion

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 02:00 PM

larocque6689, on Aug 14 2003, 06:43 PM, said:

All the same, In Harm's Way spotlights yet another despicable three-dimensional character from Kirk Douglas.

Moore seems to  have borrowed more than a bit for the new Tigh. In "Harm's Way", Douglas's  wife has been cheating on him. In the opening sequence of the movie (which begins with the Pearl Harbor attack), she and her lover are strafted by Japanese bullets. Later Douglas is asked to identify the body. He boozes, and he even commits rape, impregnating the fiance of John Wayne's son in the movie. HIs one "redemptive" act is the the suicide mission from which he would undoubtedly die. A heroic punishment for an evil deed. Not quite heroism in the conventional sense, quite a dislikeable character but compelling.

Again, not my favourite John Wayne movie, but worth a watch, if just to see Kirk Douglas play one of his best  "heel"  characters. Good Duke acting as always, even if he doesn't fire a gun!
Absolutely true about how Kirk's character was a heel but his act of redemption did say the lives of many more. Many of the greatest heroes in history did not live platonic lives or were angel's by any stretch of the imagination. All were human who made decisions in real life. Let's not forget that General Grant was an alcoholic but yet he help lead the Union to victory. Let's not forget that General Patton was an adulterer, anti-semetic, did not believe in equal rights for negros in the Army, and a believer in Anglo-Saxon superiority(several quotes by Patton about the Russians and the Japanese being subhuman have been well documented) but yet he led the American Third Army to victory in the Battle of the Bulge (Ardennes Offensive). There are many heroes in history with flaws and to overcome them makes them even more compelling.

Edited by Cylon Centurion, 14 August 2003 - 02:00 PM.

"All of a sudden, my e-mails went through the roof. Suddenly I was accused of teaming up with Ron Moore and creating just a slap in the face of all these people, and I didn't want to slap anybody." - Edward James Olmos


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