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[Vapor Trails]

This is a rant. Anyone who knows about my postings knows that I'm probably the most vocal critic of religion on this board. My views have really angered people here in the past. And some people, frankly, have grown a bit tired of these postings. So, for those people-don't read this posting, because you're gonna feel those same emotions. If you still decide to do so, you read on at your peril.

A very select few here know of the adversity that I've been going through the last couple of years. Fate has not been kind. And I've been through enough adversity now to not get too complacent when things go well. I've developed this habit of psychologically looking over my shoulder, wondering when the next crisis is going to come up. This attitude of "looking over my shoulder" is not constantly at the forefront-but it's always there, if nothing else, humming in the background. When you go through a lot of adversity, you realize just how tenuous things are.

My mom is in her early 80s. She's a sweet, decent person. She's deeply religious. I long since abandoned the Catholic faith. But I don't tell her that. During our darkest periods, she prayed her rosary, cried to God for help. When we somehow get through our troubles, she tells me, "See? God didn't let us down!"

I smile and nod. Inside I scream, "BULLSH!T!!!!"

Listening to NPR one day, I heard a phrase that struck me hard, to the innermost core of my being. And it was this:

"Jesus is a trick played on poor people."

The truth of this statement hit me like a Peterbilt. I saw it every day in my mother. I see it in people who are so desperately poor that this is the only recourse they have to keep from going insane. It's what grounds them. Religion is what grounds many people. My understanding of why this is can be read in the first few posts of this thread. This might be an aid to those who are new to my rants against religion.

And yet-there are realities so horrific, so profound in their scope that for me, they fly in the face of these beliefs. They make these beliefs, in my eyes, profound ignorance-placebos to placate their troubled minds, to give them some sense of relief. As Mark Twain once said, to paraphrase-if one looks around and sees the condition of the world, one comes to the inescapable conclusion that if there is a god, he is a divine thug.

The most recent thing that is so raw in my mind is the Arizona massacre. And in particular, a 9-year old child. An innocent. Dead at the hands of a raving lunatic. There's a part of me that wants to ask my mother-"God won't let us down, huh? This 9 year old child is dead. Why would God help us and not this child?!"

But I can't do it. My mom's been through too much hardship, and has health issues. That placebo keeps her sane.

We are apes with delusions of grandeur. The only thing that separates us from other animals is our delusional sense of self-worth, that we are somehow more "evolved". "Give a monkey a brain, and he'll swear he's the center of the universe"-an apt title of a record by the rock band Fishbone. We can do wondrous things, but we are also prone to horrific, unspeakable acts. We are terrified of the unknown. We are aghast when things like the Arizona massacre and the 9/11 attacks happen. Some of us turn to that "god" in the sky, and ask, "Why?"

I remember going with my mom to Mass, shortly after 9/11. She wanted to go, so I took her. The priest said, during the homily, "A lot of you are probably wondering why God allowed these attacks to happen." He lowered his head. "The truth is-I don't know."

At that moment, an unspeakable rage shot through me.  I wanted to hit him. I wanted to take that bible he had and smack the crap out of him with it-the arrogance of him standing there, trying to be a "spiritual leader", when he was just as clueless as the rest of us.

I don't know if there is any sort of "intelligence" out there that created the cosmos. All I know is that we have to struggle through the gauntlet of life, and we set up these psychological placebos, like religion, to get us through the day. But placebos aren't the real thing. If some folks want to live their lives with their heads in the sand-go on ahead, if it gives you comfort. To me, that's what religion is in one sense-sticking your head in the sand and using it to bring comfort during life's darkest, most insane moments-such as when a girl is held a sexual prisoner for 20 years...when a group of people is shot dead by some nut-job, including a 9-year old girl...when kids are sold into prostitution...child soldiers...genocides like Rawanda...

"Have faith in God-he won't let us down."

That is the height of naivety. It goes into the realm of absolute silliness. And even if life were to turn around for me and I became awash in incredibly good fortune-I'd ALWAYS wonder about those who are far less fortunate, like the examples I gave above.

"God" didn't let me down, huh? And that little child, being trafficked as a sexual prisoner from pervert to pervert. What makes me worthy of "God's" favor, and not this child?

Edited by Analog Kid, 12 January 2011 - 08:57 AM.

[Vapor Trails]

Why this latest rant?

I suppose I just needed to vent. My mom's constant statements of "God won't let us down" just make me grind my teeth. I love her dearly, but it's a bit much.

[QueenTiye]

There is a Gospel song that I absolutely love - called "God's Got It."  It's an upbeat, cocky, in-your-face-faith kinda song.  Lyrics say "Whatever you want, God's got it. Whatever you need, He will supply. Whatever you want, God's got it! It's yours!"  And, I understand the theology it comes from (Black Gospel is experiential more than theological, but this was an 80's song, so it intersects with the prosperity doctrines that took hold in Christianity at that time.).  Its a great song but I find myself kinda worried about the message it sends, because while it is entirely true, it is also the wrong way to think about God.  

At some level of faith, we think about God as a candy dispenser, who, when we pray for things, dispenses goodies to us, and if we don't get goodies, its because they weren't really good for us, or we weren't good enough to get the goodies.  The prosperity doctrine argues that God is a magic box - you say the right words, the right way, and you get what you want.  But a more thorough reading of scripture suggests that God is very sometimesy about dispensing goodies that we ask for, very liberal about dispensing goodies that we don't ask for, and more likely than not to dispense goodies that we don't see as goodies at all.  If we spend our time thinking about what God gives and doesn't give, we are going to have a very distorted relationship with God.  

I think a good way to think about this is to think about our own personal relationships.  We would have a very skewed relationship if we based our relationship on someone's ability to give us stuff, or to bail us out of our troubles when we get into trouble.  We know to ask for things from friends, family, partners, and we know to expect that if they can help us, they will, but our relationships aren't about that - they are about the joy of being in relationship with someone else. Period.  That's pretty much the way God asks us to relate to Him, but we, because of God's definitional power, think we are supposed to get something else from the deal.

Right now in my life, I'm beginning to come in touch with (JUST BEGINNING!) the idea that being in relationship with God is "enough."  That is - it enables me to detach from other things, and to find comfort in the relationship with God.  That, if you can stay there for any amount of time, is profoundly liberating.  The same way that you might find comfort, and strength from a spouse, where you say - "Whatever we go through, if we go through it together, I can make it, and I can get through it, and I can see my way safely to the other side" that kind of strength, empowerment and inspiration, is available in a relationship with God, and has the benefit of not being dependent on anyone else.  It also has the benefit of not requiring God to do anything but be near - we can do for ourselves on the strength of knowing God is with us - because, based on the inherent, defininional power of God, we can reasonably expect that as we march forward, God will help.  That's very different from an expectation of God to do stuff for us - but rather, an expectation that we will do for ourselves, and God will help.  And when you have that kind of faith, you can see where and how God helps.  Sometimes its just the inspiration to go the next mile when you might have given up.

I think a lot of people say, "Well, but then I can do that without God." I'm pretty sure they are right.  God didn't make human beings helpless and unable to do for themselves.  One of God's titles is The Self-Sufficient.  If humanity is created to reflect God, then we have that as an attribute as well.  But I will say that we can get through life without relationships too... but it makes our lives quite a bit poorer not to have close relationships with others.  

QT

[Vapor Trails]

QT:

Quote

At some level of faith, we think about God as a candy dispenser, who, when we pray for things, dispenses goodies to us, and if we don't get goodies, its because they weren't really good for us, or we weren't good enough to get the goodies. The prosperity doctrine argues that God is a magic box - you say the right words, the right way, and you get what you want. But a more thorough reading of scripture suggests that God is very sometimesy about dispensing goodies that we ask for, very liberal about dispensing goodies that we don't ask for, and more likely than not to dispense goodies that we don't see as goodies at all. If we spend our time thinking about what God gives and doesn't give, we are going to have a very distorted relationship with God.

I think a good way to think about this is to think about our own personal relationships. We would have a very skewed relationship if we based our relationship on someone's ability to give us stuff, or to bail us out of our troubles when we get into trouble. We know to ask for things from friends, family, partners, and we know to expect that if they can help us, they will, but our relationships aren't about that - they are about the joy of being in relationship with someone else. Period. That's pretty much the way God asks us to relate to Him, but we, because of God's definitional power, think we are supposed to get something else from the deal.

That's a faulty analogy, in my opinion-because you're talking about your relationship with other humans-not the so-called All Powerful Creator Of The Cosmos™. In particular, given the fact that many people have talked about how God "loves" us, this being has a pretty odd way of displaying its so-called "love". As I said in the other thread I linked to-what do the victims get out of the suffering and abuse, in particular, the most horrific cases?

In my view-suffering and abuse. Just that. They are left to struggle with what happened to them. Some rise above the adversity. Others don't.

[Nonny]

Analog Kid, on 12 January 2011 - 09:07 AM, said:

Why this latest rant?

I suppose I just needed to vent. My mom's constant statements of "God won't let us down" just make me grind my teeth. I love her dearly, but it's a bit much.

{{{{{{{{{{{Saul}}}}}}}}}}}

I do much of my ranting during sessions with my VA clinician.  She's in much the same position that you are, with an aging mother who is a staunch believer, having "lost" her faith herself.  I don't think of faith as something I have "lost" but as something that was forced on me as a child.  I'm beginning to realize that the threats and cajoling used to force that faith on me when I was too young to understand was not civil discourse at all.  I had no part in it but to listen, and they threatened and punished me for daring to ask questions.  I'm also being to think of it as child abuse.  

Take care of yourself.

[Nonny]

Analog Kid, on 12 January 2011 - 11:01 AM, said:

QT:

Quote

At some level of faith, we think about God as a candy dispenser, who, when we pray for things, dispenses goodies to us, and if we don't get goodies, its because they weren't really good for us, or we weren't good enough to get the goodies. The prosperity doctrine argues that God is a magic box - you say the right words, the right way, and you get what you want. But a more thorough reading of scripture suggests that God is very sometimesy about dispensing goodies that we ask for, very liberal about dispensing goodies that we don't ask for, and more likely than not to dispense goodies that we don't see as goodies at all. If we spend our time thinking about what God gives and doesn't give, we are going to have a very distorted relationship with God.

I think a good way to think about this is to think about our own personal relationships. We would have a very skewed relationship if we based our relationship on someone's ability to give us stuff, or to bail us out of our troubles when we get into trouble. We know to ask for things from friends, family, partners, and we know to expect that if they can help us, they will, but our relationships aren't about that - they are about the joy of being in relationship with someone else. Period. That's pretty much the way God asks us to relate to Him, but we, because of God's definitional power, think we are supposed to get something else from the deal.

That's a faulty analogy, in my opinion-because you're talking about your relationship with other humans-not the so-called All Powerful Creator Of The Cosmos™. In particular, given the fact that many people have talked about how God "loves" us, this being has a pretty odd way of displaying its so-called "love". As I said in the other thread I linked to-what do the victims get out of the suffering and abuse, in particular, the most horrific cases?

In my view-suffering and abuse. Just that. They are left to struggle with what happened to them. Some rise above the adversity. Others don't.

Reading the Bible, something forbidden to Catholic children back in my childhood, and which I did for the first time about twenty years ago, opened my eyes to that.  It was the part where God complains to Moses that he does a lot of mean and even cruel things to the people, "and still they don't love me."  That caught me up short.  If "love" has to be beaten into you, then it isn't love, it's fear.

[Vapor Trails]

Nonny, on 12 January 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

Analog Kid, on 12 January 2011 - 09:07 AM, said:

Why this latest rant?

I suppose I just needed to vent. My mom's constant statements of "God won't let us down" just make me grind my teeth. I love her dearly, but it's a bit much.

{{{{{{{{{{{Saul}}}}}}}}}}}

I do much of my ranting during sessions with my VA clinician.  She's in much the same position that you are, with an aging mother who is a staunch believer, having "lost" her faith herself.  I don't think of faith as something I have "lost" but as something that was forced on me as a child.  I'm beginning to realize that the threats and cajoling used to force that faith on me when I was too young to understand was not civil discourse at all.  I had no part in it but to listen, and they threatened and punished me for daring to ask questions.  I'm also being to think of it as child abuse.  

Take care of yourself.

{{{{Nonny}}}}

I'm not calling my mother a "sweetie-pie" because she's my mom. She REALLY is. I am so fortunate to have such a wonderful person as my mom. She has a heart of gold. She's gentle, loving and humble.

But as usually happens with children and parents, there are disagreements. It just happens that this is the BIGGEST one. I've REALLY had to bite my tongue, to the point of drawing blood sometimes.

[Vapor Trails]

Nonny, on 12 January 2011 - 11:10 AM, said:

Reading the Bible, something forbidden to Catholic children back in my childhood, and which I did for the first time about twenty years ago, opened my eyes to that.  It was the part where God complains to Moses that he does a lot of mean and even cruel things to the people, "and still they don't love me."  That caught me up short. If "love" has to be beaten into you, then it isn't love, it's fear.

Ayup. Hence, the Mark Twain quote.

[Bad Wolf]

Somebody recently said something to me that struck me:  God's a controversial artist.  The question is can you get into all his work, even the edgy stuff.

[Vapor Trails]

Bad Wolf, on 12 January 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

Somebody recently said something to me that struck me:  God's a controversial artist.  The question is can you get into all his work, even the edgy stuff.

"Bullsh!t artist" would make more sense.

[M.E.]

I know I don't believe in organized religion.  That much I am sure of.  

I know that the bible is written in such a way that you can pretty much glean whatever you want from it and call it "Gods word".  That's not a good thing, in my opinion.

I know that alot of people endure unspeakable torture.  Like children being trafficked.  These acts are so horrific that even our judges won't look at the video evidence presented in the courtroom.

I know that whole nations go without the necessities of life...food, water, shelter, medical care or even parental guidance.

Why does it happen?  Because we allow it to happen.  It's that simple and that complicated.

I don't know about an "Almighty Creator of the Cosmos" but, I do know there is a higher power, Saul.  I know because I have experienced this higher power over and over again, in my life.  This higher power doesn't "fix" things that go wrong in my life and certainly does not keep my life trouble free.  What this higher being does do is show me is the beauty.  The beauty in all things even the little things like that pink bug that I just posted a picture of in the epic pictures thread.

When I was at the lowest part of my life?  I have had some very trying experiences but, this was the absolute lowest time.....something happened that forever changed the way I view life.  I can't share that experience, I wish I could but, it is just too personal.  What I can share with you is the fact that it was there all along.  That I just had to be open/ready to see it.

I don't know how it works.  I know I am not special.  I am not this "higher beings" only client.

I am truly sorry that you are going through such difficult times, Saul.  I mean that.  I wish with all might.  I wish with every fiber of my being, that I could take those troubles from you and your loved ones.

I feel that same compassion for all in need.  When I lay down at night, I picture all the children of the world in need.  I picture covering them with a warm fluffy "trouble free" blanket and I ask, "Just for tonight, please?  Give them this one night, of rest, trouble free and peaceful.  Free of fear and sickness or hunger pangs."

I want to "fix" the world.  I want to create utopia.  

The problem is, my utopia is not the same as yours would be, or maybe not the same as anyone else's.  Nor do I right to enforce my utopia on the rest of the world.  No one does -  "Higher Power" included.

(((((Saul)))))

[Vapor Trails]

Post 27.

[M.E.]

Yes, I have read post #27 previously.  I read most of your postings.  

I find you to be interesting, informative and entertaining.

[Vapor Trails]

michael elizabeth, on 12 January 2011 - 02:00 PM, said:

Yes, I have read post #27 previously.  I read most of your postings.  

I find you to be interesting, informative and entertaining.

Thanks!

I'm just an analytical person with a big mouth.  

[Vapor Trails]

It's also why I'm a writer. I channel my rage into my fiction. And there is a LOT of rage.

[Tricia]

Like ME, I believe in a Higher Power...I call it God for lack of a better word or maybe because it is a simple word, a name.

I believe in free will too....and that is where all the evil of the world comes from, IMHO.

"Have Faith in God, He Won't Let Us Down"--that's what some of us tell ourselves but the truth is that it's up to US to make the difference, to try to fix all the ills of the world because generally Man created those problems for himself.  Some man made a choice, a decision, took some action.  For the better or the worse...generally the worse.  

Faith in God, a higher power, whatever, is best come to in one's own time and one's own way.  It can't be forced upon you by anyone else.  I had a personal experience long ago that made me believe and made me discover my own path, my own truth.

Everyone has their own experiences and own beliefs.  And they are all valid choices.

[QueenTiye]

Analog Kid, on 12 January 2011 - 11:01 AM, said:

QT:

That's a faulty analogy, in my opinion-because you're talking about your relationship with other humans-not the so-called All Powerful Creator Of The Cosmos™. In particular, given the fact that many people have talked about how God "loves" us, this being has a pretty odd way of displaying its so-called "love". As I said in the other thread I linked to-what do the victims get out of the suffering and abuse, in particular, the most horrific cases?

In my view-suffering and abuse. Just that. They are left to struggle with what happened to them. Some rise above the adversity. Others don't.

I think it is important to remember that the Bible is only one set of scriptural provenance on the the subject of God.  But it is one which continually references our relationship with Him/Her/Am, so I think that talking about a relationship with God is just as valid as talking about a relationship with other human beings.

Buddhists talk about detachment from everything as an ideal to end suffering.  A relationship with God, and detachment from all else produces this effect, but that still leaves a single attachment - attachment to God.  How Baha'is reconcile this is to wrestle with the idea "He does as He Wills" - the idea that anything that God does is right and good, and consequently, we can't have any attachments to any preconceived notions of what is good or bad according to God.  Rather, we have to simply accept God's Will is what it is, and stay in relationship with God.  There is a good deal of strength in this.

I have argued in other places (but not in this thread) that God allows suffering for our own growth and strength.  I do believe that, but to answer your point about some making it through and some not - I also believe that a relationship with God, and the steady practice of detachment makes the difference in making it through or not. As I said, it is a source of strength to have a relationship with God, and to feel detached from everything else, relationships, outcomes, circumstances, etc.  Hard to get to that place - we call it sainthood when people achieve it, but if you even experience a little bit of it, you can see for yourself just how much strength and power is there.

As others have said in this thread, Faith in God is not an excuse for failing to actually DO. Waiting for God to do what God gave you the ability to do is a recipe for tough love from God...

QT

[Vapor Trails]

I'm gonna touch on this one before I head off to nap...

QueenTiye, on 12 January 2011 - 04:01 PM, said:

As others have said in this thread, Faith in God is not an excuse for failing to actually DO. Waiting for God to do what God gave you the ability to do is a recipe for tough love from God...

QT

Okay-let's go back to that example I used in the "Challenging Faith & Religion" thread.

I had asked before about those two women who were raped for two decades. Let's apply what you just wrote to THEM.

I DO NOT want you to focus on ANYONE BUT THEM.

"Waiting for God to do what God gave you the ability to do is a recipe for tough love from God..."

Really?

If so, you have just validated Mark Twain's argument. What should those two women get out of two decades of rape and incest?

[Nonny]

Bad Wolf, on 12 January 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

Somebody recently said something to me that struck me:  God's a controversial artist.  The question is can you get into all his work, even the edgy stuff.

Too edgy for me.  I've spent much of my adult life dangled over the edge.

[Nonny]

michael elizabeth, on 12 January 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

... I do know there is a higher power, Saul.  I know because I have experienced this higher power over and over again, in my life.  This higher power doesn't "fix" things that go wrong in my life and certainly does not keep my life trouble free.  What this higher being does do is show me is the beauty.  The beauty in all things even the little things like that pink bug that I just posted a picture of in the epic pictures thread....

I believe in a higher power too.  And I really like that pink bug.