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Re-defining Rape for Medicaid Purposes

Medicaid Rape 2011

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#161 sierraleone

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Posted 18 March 2011 - 05:08 PM

^ *sigh* - I suppose they are going to ask if, to their knowledge, they have any minor daughters that have had an abortion, and if there were no tax-monies that went towards it... but, I doubt it will ask men if their tax dollars went towards their wives/partners having an abortion   :rolleyes:  (are there shared Health Savings Accounts?)
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#162 sierraleone

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 09:43 AM

Here I go again, I had this post 3/4s done then my computer glitched on me....

I didn't want to make a separate topic about this, as it is a proposed amendment, to a budget bill of all things (in Iowa). I had to reboot my computer, so lets see if I can find the article again....

Here we go, I think.

http://www.desmoines...dyssey=nav|head

Quote

Poor Iowans would be prohibited from having a taxpayer-paid abortion in cases of rape or incest under an amendment to a budget bill approved by a House committee this week.

Existing state law follows federal requirements and allows the use of Medicaid money to pay for abortions in those situations and when a mother's life is threatened.

Quote

Medicaid-paid abortions for rape and incest are rare in Iowa. State records dating to 2005 show no state or federal money was used to pay for abortions in those situations

Um, so this is of large concern to the budget how?

Quote

Every state but South Dakota follows the federal requirements....

The Iowa proposal mirrors South Dakota law: It allows Medicaid to pay for abortions only when a mother's life is jeopardized and not in cases of rape or incest.

Iowa human service officials were investigating Wednesday whether Iowa would risk losing billions of dollars in federal Medicaid grants if the proposed legislation were adopted. However, federal officials have not taken such action against South Dakota.

How long has this been the case in South Dakota?

Quote

"My caucus feels very strongly that in the case of rape and incest that the person inside that woman's body is innocent to the act," Heaton said. "Even though he was born under horrific circumstances, he's an innocent person that's entitled to live a full life."

I've always wondered why this argument wasn't used more, but I figure those who, while they may have sympathies with victims of rape/incest, feel that all fetuses that don't risk their mother's lives, deserve to be treated equally, will have no traction in a discussion between pro-life and pro-choice sides, and more likely to made headway among people who are generally pro-life. My understanding is even the majority of pro-life people believe in exemptions for rape/incest/mother's health &or life/fetal deformities incompatible with life. Either that, or they concede/are mum on it, to be sensitive and/or pragmatic. ... Speaking of serious fetal deformities....

Quote

Iowa's bill also would eliminate Medicaid payment for abortions in cases where a doctor certifies significant deformities that make it unlikely the baby would survive if delivered.

Deserving of full lives? (hence the bolding in the prior quote). I suppose some would argue that (in addition to the false negatives/positives) that their lives should not be shortened by force, before they die of natural causes shortly before/after birth, but few would try that argument....

Quote

Federal laws do not require Iowa's Medicaid program to pay for or perform abortions of fetuses that are deformed. In the last calendar year, Iowa Medicaid paid for 27 abortions, five to save the life of the mother and 22 in cases that met the criteria for a deformed fetus.

The average cost for a state-paid abortion is $1,592.

Um, with this being part of a budget bill, what is the cost of this futile gesture? Not to mention cruel. (though legally, they don't have to worry about the feds on this one, since its not mandated at the federal level. Not that South Dakota has been bothered by the Feds, despite a similar law.).

On medicaid a pregnant woman is eligible for coverage for care during the prenatal, labour and delivery, and postnatal care, are they not? It may be $1,592 for an abortion. Even ignoring the cost of medicaid for a child from birth onwards (since some of these infants will not survive for long after birth... ) .... I can't imagine the cost for a woman prenatal appointments (while continuing a pregnancy), her hospital stay during labour, delivery, and the immediate postnatal period (and then add on costs to make the infants more comfortable and/or live a little longer, if the infant survived delivery), is cheaper than the cost for an abortion.

Edited by sierraleone, 19 March 2011 - 09:45 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#163 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 08:25 AM

sierraleone writes:
"Um, so this is of large concern to the budget how?"

It's not.  
It is not a monetary issue, it's a moral issue; for those proposing such limits.
I don't want my family's hard earned tax dollars to fund, and thus allow, abortions.

quote:
"I've always wondered why this argument wasn't used more"

It's used all the time.  Like, in this here thread of yours.

quote:
"Deserving of full lives? (hence the bolding in the prior quote). I suppose some would argue that (in addition to the false negatives/positives) that their lives should not be shortened by force, before they die of natural causes shortly before/after birth, but few would try that argument...."

I would wager some doctors are willing to diagnose and put their reputations on the line to declare certain birth deformities as incompatable with life,
but it is so subjective, and soooo ripe with potential for immoral medical lies.  
Yes - full lives within their own path.  Ask my brother.  His son lived beyond expectations, and without recommended treatment that would render him in a vegetative state - defying odds, he developed enough to go to school, learn, express joy, play with his matchboxes, go on an Easter egg hunt with me, get a crush on his teacher ... be a boy - an incredibly handicapped boy until his death at 5.  That life was worth living; he was worth loving.  And that death was therefore not hollow.

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#164 Nonny

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 10:35 AM

View PostNittany Lioness, on 21 March 2011 - 08:25 AM, said:

It is not a monetary issue, it's a moral issue; for those proposing such limits.
I agree that it's a moral issue, because it's immoral to deny women the full range of reproductive choices.  Those proposing the limits need to examine their own lives and deal with their own moral deficiencies, instead of using this single issue as an opportunity to rant about how their deity forgives them theirs while denying forgiveness for those whose so-called "sins" support their political agendas *cough*Newt et al*cough* so conveniently.  I would also love to see them stop using this single issue as cover for the full range of their intentions.  

Quote

I don't want my family's hard earned tax dollars to fund, and thus allow, abortions.
Let's all make lists of all the things we don't want our tax dollars to fund.  I bet abortion doesn't even make the top twenty.

Edited by Nonny, 21 March 2011 - 10:41 AM.

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#165 Balthamos

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 12:51 PM

Nonny, it's perfectly possibly to have moral objection to abortion based upon your own conclusions and not religious convictions. Instead of using every post on abortion to talk about people who do have religious beliefs you could engage the debate about the morality of abortion. I'd be surprised if you thought abortion was an excellent choice for all women, from what I hear (and yes, only hear), most people regard abortion as their last and only choice. By all means debate when abortion should be an option, when should taxpayer dollars be used to fund an abortion but please try and keep what you're saying as a response to something that has been brought in to the discussion (by means of quotes, another member, a link etc etc) as opposed to countering some point that nobody in the thread is subscribing to.

Anyway, might I suggest that this topic has been beaten to death both here and in AQG, you might be better to let it drop rather than let things get heated, personal and warnable.

#166 M.E.

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 02:44 PM

View PostBalthamos, on 21 March 2011 - 12:51 PM, said:

Nonny, it's perfectly possibly to have moral objection to abortion based upon your own conclusions and not religious convictions. Instead of using every post on abortion to talk about people who do have religious beliefs you could engage the debate about the morality of abortion. I'd be surprised if you thought abortion was an excellent choice for all women, from what I hear (and yes, only hear), most people regard abortion as their last and only choice. By all means debate when abortion should be an option, when should taxpayer dollars be used to fund an abortion but please try and keep what you're saying as a response to something that has been brought in to the discussion (by means of quotes, another member, a link etc etc) as opposed to countering some point that nobody in the thread is subscribing to.

Anyway, might I suggest that this topic has been beaten to death both here and in AQG, you might be better to let it drop rather than let things get heated, personal and warnable.

This is not the "only" definition for deity but, it is one of them:

Deity -  The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity.

IMO, anyone who would try to impose their belief that they have the right to decide what is done to my body, falls into that category.

Nonny, is not the only one posting in this thread nor is she the only one still reading it.  Therefore, no, Balthamos this topic has not been done to death.

I happen to agree this "law" is politically motivated.  It is also intentionally designed to pull at peoples moral heart strings on both sides of the argument.

Some of us pull harder than others.  Such is life.  And in this case death.

I cannot tell you how many times I have subscribed to a specific topic then after so many days had this very same "done to death" thought.   Luckily for me, I can click on the "stop watching this topic" option.  

May I "suggest" that if you, as a staff member assigned to this forum, think that the subject has been "done to death", pass this thread on to a different moderator?

#167 Balthamos

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 03:07 PM

Quote

This is not the "only" definition for deity but, it is one of them:

Deity - The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity.

IMO, anyone who would try to impose their belief that they have the right to decide what is done to my body, falls into that category.

Nonny, is not the only one posting in this thread nor is she the only one still reading it. Therefore, no, Balthamos this topic has not been done to death.

I happen to agree this "law" is politically motivated. It is also intentionally designed to pull at peoples moral heart strings on both sides of the argument.

Some of us pull harder than others. Such is life. And in this case death.

I cannot tell you how many times I have subscribed to a specific topic then after so many days had this very same "done to death" thought. Luckily for me, I can click on the "stop watching this topic" option.

May I "suggest" that if you, as a staff member assigned to this forum, think that the subject has been "done to death", pass this thread on to a different moderator?

Perhaps not but I find it hard to believe from Nonny's numerous posts that she's not talking about people with a religious conviction who would deny others abortions. You can still flog a dead horse, Nonny's and Nittany's exchanges have gone on both here and AQG, they're not going anywhere, they're not going to go anywhere, and nobody is walking away, which leads to heated tempers and verbal sparring that goes nowhere (except the warning books).

Believe it or not I don't expect this thread to die, that'd be too easy, this is the internet, people don't back down they're too busy being right but when they same arguments keep coming the same rhetoric and the same stuff goes over and over again, it might just be time to let it go. You can't argue forever on something you're not going to agree on. XKCD.

As for passing this thread on to another moderator? Well, Julianus can drop in if he likes but believe it or not I read every post in every thread in this forum, even when I truly don't care about the subject I still read the posts. We don't assign threads to each other or deal them out like a pack of cards we both look after the whole forum.

#168 Julianus

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 04:03 PM

As the other moderator I will say that I don't believe anyone is going to have their mind changed by what is said under this topic. This is a topic that people do feel strongly about. As long as posters stick to commenting on the topic and do so within the board guidelines I won't have any problem.

As it is I think that emails, letters, and phone calls to one's elected representative would be a more useful way to communicate your views.

Pax,
Julianus

#169 M.E.

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 05:17 PM

View PostBalthamos, on 21 March 2011 - 03:07 PM, said:

Quote

This is not the "only" definition for deity but, it is one of them:

Deity - The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity.

IMO, anyone who would try to impose their belief that they have the right to decide what is done to my body, falls into that category.

Nonny, is not the only one posting in this thread nor is she the only one still reading it. Therefore, no, Balthamos this topic has not been done to death.

I happen to agree this "law" is politically motivated. It is also intentionally designed to pull at peoples moral heart strings on both sides of the argument.

Some of us pull harder than others. Such is life. And in this case death.

I cannot tell you how many times I have subscribed to a specific topic then after so many days had this very same "done to death" thought. Luckily for me, I can click on the "stop watching this topic" option.

May I "suggest" that if you, as a staff member assigned to this forum, think that the subject has been "done to death", pass this thread on to a different moderator?

Perhaps not but I find it hard to believe from Nonny's numerous posts that she's not talking about people with a religious conviction who would deny others abortions. You can still flog a dead horse, Nonny's and Nittany's exchanges have gone on both here and AQG, they're not going anywhere, they're not going to go anywhere, and nobody is walking away, which leads to heated tempers and verbal sparring that goes nowhere (except the warning books).

Believe it or not I don't expect this thread to die, that'd be too easy, this is the internet, people don't back down they're too busy being right but when they same arguments keep coming the same rhetoric and the same stuff goes over and over again, it might just be time to let it go. You can't argue forever on something you're not going to agree on. XKCD.

As for passing this thread on to another moderator? Well, Julianus can drop in if he likes but believe it or not I read every post in every thread in this forum, even when I truly don't care about the subject I still read the posts. We don't assign threads to each other or deal them out like a pack of cards we both look after the whole forum.

(All bolded words are my doing.)

I have read this entire thread too.  I gave the definition because it is possible, as even you mention at the beginning if this post in your quote, as well as what is stated in BGL Part 1 A(3).  

Quote

Err on the side of kindness when reading others' posts, and refrain from  accusing them of flaming, etc., just because they don't like them or  their opinions. If members can't tell the intent of a post, they also  have a responsibility to civilly ask the poster what their intent was,  and then, if still unsure, ask mods/admins for their opinion.

I took exception to this part of the comment,

Quote

Anyway, might I suggest that this topic has been beaten to death both here and in AQG,

I got the sense that you are tired of the exchange and just want it to go away.   I think I understand where you are coming from.  I just wanted to remind you that there are more than the two aforementioned interested in this thread subject.   Again, lucky me, I get to bypass whatever I deem "done to death" :wink:

Thank you for the link.  I love that type of humor and the deck of cards analogy.  :)

#170 M.E.

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 05:25 PM

View PostJulianus, on 21 March 2011 - 04:03 PM, said:

As the other moderator I will say that I don't believe anyone is going to have their mind changed by what is said under this topic. This is a topic that people do feel strongly about. As long as posters stick to commenting on the topic and do so within the board guidelines I won't have any problem.

As it is I think that emails, letters, and phone calls to one's elected representative would be a more useful way to communicate your views.

Pax,
Julianus

Thank you, Julianus.  :)

Again I say, lucky me.  As long as I stay within the guidelines, I get to decide what I think is a useful way to communicate my views.

#171 Nonny

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 06:12 AM

View PostBalthamos, on 21 March 2011 - 12:51 PM, said:

Nonny, it's perfectly possibly to have moral objection to abortion based upon your own conclusions and not religious convictions. Instead of using every post on abortion to talk about people who do have religious beliefs you could engage the debate about the morality of abortion. I'd be surprised if you thought abortion was an excellent choice for all women, from what I hear (and yes, only hear), most people regard abortion as their last and only choice. By all means debate when abortion should be an option, when should taxpayer dollars be used to fund an abortion but please try and keep what you're saying as a response to something that has been brought in to the discussion (by means of quotes, another member, a link etc etc) as opposed to countering some point that nobody in the thread is subscribing to.

Anyway, might I suggest that this topic has been beaten to death both here and in AQG, you might be better to let it drop rather than let things get heated, personal and warnable.
How dare you?  How dare you?  Your complete misinterpretation of everything I have ever posted on this subject is insulting in the extreme and personally distressing.  My hands are shaking too hard for me to post much more, and tears are flowing so hard I can hardly see what I'm posting anyway.  

I will have an apology.  

Any religious belief that demands the death of any woman or girl whose pregnancy is killing her is immoral.  Requiring the death of any such woman or girl, including me, for instance, for the honor and glory of some petty deity, is murder.  And attempting to incite such a woman or girl to emotional or mental instability for having dared to live is quite simply cruel.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#172 Mark

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 04:56 PM

View PostBalthamos, on 21 March 2011 - 12:51 PM, said:

Nonny, it's perfectly possibly to have moral objection to abortion based upon your own conclusions and not religious convictions. Instead of using every post on abortion to talk about people who do have religious beliefs you could engage the debate about the morality of abortion. I'd be surprised if you thought abortion was an excellent choice for all women, from what I hear (and yes, only hear), most people regard abortion as their last and only choice. By all means debate when abortion should be an option, when should taxpayer dollars be used to fund an abortion but please try and keep what you're saying as a response to something that has been brought in to the discussion (by means of quotes, another member, a link etc etc) as opposed to countering some point that nobody in the thread is subscribing to.

Anyway, might I suggest that this topic has been beaten to death both here and in AQG, you might be better to let it drop rather than let things get heated, personal and warnable.

Mark: I've read the whole thread a few times now. Although I agree this topic goes round in circles, with only an occasional breakthrough by members who have discussed it, cursed it, and argued over it for years here on Ex Isle, I DO NOT see why you said the above to Nonny.  I don't see her "using every post on abortion to talk about people who do have religious beliefs".  

Accept for the terrible pictures at the beginning, and perhaps a couple of initial overreactions regarding someone's post (most of which have been worked out by the members), your post above seems to be the most inappropriate and objectionable in this thread. Sorry, that's just the way I see it.
Telling someone HOW to post during such an intricate topic as abortion, instead of just upholding the GL's (as they currently stand), is not behavior I'd want my name and moderator status next to. Since this topic is obviously an emotional topic for Nonny, and many others, I would think leaving well enough alone, instead of stirring the pot would be more appropriate...but unlike your comment...mine is just a suggestion.

Now, in defense of the staff...   Moderating is a very hard job when done right. It's even harder  when the topic being moderated not only involves abortion, but religion and politics. Those are the big three unmentionable topics for people in professions involving sales. Since nearly everybody has differing opinions regarding these topics, it's not easy to keep a friendly conversation going after these topics have been engaged. So, as a salesman, my company instructed ALL it's sales personnel not to engage a potential customer in those three topics, even if the customer was trying to get into those subjects during the natural discourse of pre-sales banter. I quickly learned how right my company was to instruct us this way, after a couple of innocent comments made by a fellow employee. Something as simple as who he was going to vote for, for President of the United States, got one potential client so upset, he completely forgot about the reason we were there, and it cost us our sale for that customer. The contract had already been written up, and we were ready to close the deal, when the customer asked about who he was voting for. Not thinking about anything but the paperwork, my fellow employee blurted out his choice, and said what an idiot the other guy was. Well, except for some heated words, and tangent tirades about some things,  my fellow salesman and I found ourselves quickly  moving from the house, to our car!

I discourage posts regarding the big three (bad-for-relations) topics on my message board. It's not totally forbidden, but the originator of such topics better know what amount of hurt can come out of talking about those three things.
That being said, I think most of the posts in this thread have been interesting, and thought-provoking. I applaud my fellow Ex Islanders for keeping the abortion topic as civil as they have. It's NOT an easy topic to discuss.

Best wishes to all...

Edited by Mark, 25 March 2011 - 05:46 PM.

Mark
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#173 Nonny

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:54 PM

View PostMark, on 25 March 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

View PostBalthamos, on 21 March 2011 - 12:51 PM, said:

Nonny, it's perfectly possibly to have moral objection to abortion based upon your own conclusions and not religious convictions. Instead of using every post on abortion to talk about people who do have religious beliefs you could engage the debate about the morality of abortion. I'd be surprised if you thought abortion was an excellent choice for all women, from what I hear (and yes, only hear), most people regard abortion as their last and only choice. By all means debate when abortion should be an option, when should taxpayer dollars be used to fund an abortion but please try and keep what you're saying as a response to something that has been brought in to the discussion (by means of quotes, another member, a link etc etc) as opposed to countering some point that nobody in the thread is subscribing to.

Anyway, might I suggest that this topic has been beaten to death both here and in AQG, you might be better to let it drop rather than let things get heated, personal and warnable.

Mark: I've read the whole thread a few times now. Although I agree this topic goes round in circles, with only an occasional breakthrough by members who have discussed it, cursed it, and argued over it for years here on Ex Isle, I DO NOT see why you said the above to Nonny.  I don't see her "using every post on abortion to talk about people who do have religious beliefs".  

Accept for the terrible pictures at the beginning, and perhaps a couple of initial overreactions regarding someone's post (most of which have been worked out by the members), your post above seems to be the most inappropriate and objectionable in this thread. Sorry, that's just the way I see it.
Telling someone HOW to post during such an intricate topic as abortion, instead of just upholding the GL's (as they currently stand), is not behavior I'd want my name and moderator status next to. Since this topic is obviously an emotional topic for Nonny, and many others, I would think leaving well enough alone, instead of stirring the pot would be more appropriate...but unlike your comment...mine is just a suggestion.

Now, in defense of the staff...   Moderating is a very hard job when done right. It's even harder  when the topic being moderated not only involves abortion, but religion and politics. Those are the big three unmentionable topics for people in professions involving sales. Since nearly everybody has differing opinions regarding these topics, it's not easy to keep a friendly conversation going after these topics have been engaged. So, as a salesman, my company instructed ALL it's sales personnel not to engage a potential customer in those three topics, even if the customer was trying to get into those subjects during the natural discourse of pre-sales banter. I quickly learned how right my company was to instruct us this way, after a couple of innocent comments made by a fellow employee. Something as simple as who he was going to vote for, for President of the United States, got one potential client so upset, he completely forgot about the reason we were there, and it cost us our sale for that customer. The contract had already been written up, and we were ready to close the deal, when the customer asked about who he was voting for. Not thinking about anything but the paperwork, my fellow employee blurted out his choice, and said what an idiot the other guy was. Well, except for some heated words, and tangent tirades about some things,  my fellow salesman and I found ourselves quickly  moving from the house, to our car!

I discourage posts regarding the big three (bad-for-relations) topics on my message board. It's not totally forbidden, but the originator of such topics better know what amount of hurt can come out of talking about those three things.
That being said, I think most of the posts in this thread have been interesting, and thought-provoking. I applaud my fellow Ex Islanders for keeping the abortion topic as civil as they have. It's NOT an easy topic to discuss.

Best wishes to all...
Thank you.
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot



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