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Another Foolish Teacher Yaps It Up On Facebook


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#21 Cheile

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 02:34 PM

^ i don't really think it's fair to claim you've "been through worse" when you don't know what else her students have done to her.  things affect everyone differently.  just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it can't affect someone else in a different way.

now as i said, if this teacher used school property to make these posts, that's another story.  but this comment in the article Tricia shared about "how teachers should conduct themselves online" is b*llsh*t.  unless they're on a porn site or talking about doing drugs or spewing racism and/or homophobia--none of your business, school board.

and you're missing one of my points.  it's none of an employer's business what an employee says or does in their offtime, UNLESS a) they are breaking the law or b) engaging in immoral behavior, such as your last example of the teacher spewing homophobia.  it's long past time employers needed to learn to mind their own f*ck*ng business, whether they see something on facebook or whether they see the person out on the street, and stay out of their employees' private lives.

ETA: re: special ed kids comment--that would be different if it had stated she was a special ed teacher, which it didn't, so i don't think that is the case here.  and yes, my nephew has Asperger's.  HOWEVER, his mother, grandparents, and i set boundaries and make clear to him how to behave....which i'm sorry to say, many parents of such children don't even do that.  i go to church with a woman who has triplets--the boys are autistic.  she does NOTHING to control them....and they're going to be the ones to suffer when they're older.

Edited by Cheile, 11 November 2011 - 02:38 PM.

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#22 Vapor Trails

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 02:58 PM

View PostCheile, on 11 November 2011 - 02:34 PM, said:

^ i don't really think it's fair to claim you've "been through worse" when you don't know what else her students have done to her.  things affect everyone differently.  just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it can't affect someone else in a different way.

I'll concede to this-BUT ONLY this.

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now as i said, if this teacher used school property to make these posts, that's another story.  but this comment in the article Tricia shared about "how teachers should conduct themselves online" is b*llsh*t.  unless they're on a porn site or talking about doing drugs or spewing racism and/or homophobia--none of your business, school board.

and you're missing one of my points.  it's none of an employer's business what an employee says or does in their offtime, UNLESS a) they are breaking the law or b) engaging in immoral behavior, such as your last example of the teacher spewing homophobia.  it's long past time employers needed to learn to mind their own f*ck*ng business, whether they see something on facebook or whether they see the person out on the street, and stay out of their employees' private lives.

Once more-you have face the consequences on when and where you speak out and to whom: fair or not. I'm not budging on this point. To me, IT DOESN'T MATTER if the teacher was in the right. The world isn't fair, and people get f**ked unfairly all the time. That's why you need to be careful on WHERE you vent your frustrations and WHO you are talking to. There are consequences to face, such as losing your job, then losing your house because you can't pay the mortage....and so on and so forth. If you get railroaded due to venting in the improper venue, even if you are in the right-do you have the money and connections to fight for your rights? Lawyers cost money and time. And there are still those mounting bills to deal with. Without the proper connections to help you out, you might have lost before the fight has even started.

Disagree with me all you want on this-but I'm not changing my stance here. If you still disagree, then we have nothing further to say to each other.

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ETA: re: special ed kids comment--that would be different if it had stated she was a special ed teacher, which it didn't, so i don't think that is the case here.  and yes, my nephew has Asperger's.  HOWEVER, his mother, grandparents, and i set boundaries and make clear to him how to behave....which i'm sorry to say, many parents of such children don't even do that.  i go to church with a woman who has triplets--the boys are autistic.  she does NOTHING to control them....and they're going to be the ones to suffer when they're older.

Well, I'd still like to know what kind of kids these are-and the parental situation. Also-we need to allow for the fact that these news reports might not have all the details we need.  :whatsthat:

Edited by Vapor Trails, 11 November 2011 - 03:05 PM.

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#23 Tricia

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 03:36 PM

View PostCheile, on 11 November 2011 - 02:34 PM, said:

now as i said, if this teacher used school property to make these posts, that's another story.  but this comment in the article Tricia shared about "how teachers should conduct themselves online" is b*llsh*t.  unless they're on a porn site or talking about doing drugs or spewing racism and/or homophobia--none of your business, school board.


Part of that article and quote was--

Quote

Administrative Law Judge Ellen Bass ruled that the Paterson teacher, Jennifer O'Brien, "demonstrated a complete lack of sensitivity to the world in which her students live" and recommended that she lose her tenured position.

Paterson is a poor, urban New Jersey community with a high rate of violent crime, and school officials interpreted O'Brien's comment as racially tinged, according to court documents

Not likely what she intended but by the time her remarks had been forwarded by one or more of her FB 'friends', it had taken on a life of its own.  Been interpreted, right or wrong, as a possible racial remark.  And once people make up their mind that that is what she meant...hard to stop that runaway train of thought.


I'm not a fan of businesses, employers etc using FB and other online sites/forums to check up on employees or potential employees but it's pretty common now.  

BTW there is whole other argument on whether teachers should be FB friends with their students also.  That's a whole other can of worms though.

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#24 Cheile

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 04:17 PM

View PostVapor Trails, on 11 November 2011 - 02:58 PM, said:

Well, I'd still like to know what kind of kids these are-and the parental situation. Also-we need to allow for the fact that these news reports might not have all the details we need.  :whatsthat:

oh i'm sure if this woman was a special ed teacher, they would have been all over it and screaming about how horrible she is.  that is not a detail they would have held back.

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#25 Vapor Trails

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 04:22 PM

It's not about who's right or who's wrong. It's about the realities of the world we live in, and one of those realities is that life isn't fair. More often than not, this fact trumps the law and who's right. And it's also about BEING ABLE to fight for your rights. To do that, you need money and connections. THAT is why you can't just blab about your problems anywhere and to anyone.

For someone in the position of this teacher to not understand the above paragraph is the height of naivety & foolishness. She may end up paying a BIG cost for being so clueless.

This teacher needs to get a clue and grow up.
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#26 Nikcara

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 12:26 PM

I don't think the teacher should have gotten fired, but I agree that it was stupid.  Stories like this is why I tend to be very tight-lipped on FB and any other type of social media I use.  Even when I have a bad day at work I don't disparage my boss/company/coworkers online.  I vent to people in person, or I write things in non-public areas (stories on my computer, a journal, etc.)

I've worked jobs that were really stressful before too.  I've listened to coworkers complain and say much, much worse things than this about our clients knowing they were blowing off steam.  But I would NEVER say those things in a place where parents/family of the clients could ever see it.  And I never repeated the things that were said to me unless I thought that the person in question was going to actually hurt a client (that happened once).

I would be much more interested in if she was a good teacher or not.  Was she overall a good teacher who had a bad day, or was she someone who didn't like the kids and the kids didn't like her back?

Also, as far as special needs/poorer kids are concerned - children of urban low income families are more likely to have lead poisoning, exposure to toxic fumes, and other environmental pollution that can cause mild to severe brain damage.  The easiest to see symptoms tend to be behavioral, and since their families don't have the money for doctor visits and tend be poorly educated themselves they often go undiagnosed.  Other problems that affect developing brains are malnutrition of the child/pregnant mother (also a problem disproportionally on the poor), fetal alcohol syndrome (not limited to the poor, but tends to be more common), chronic stress (parents/caregivers trying to make ends meet, neglect, violence in the neighborhood, etc - again not limited to the poor, but more common)  

some interesting things about growing up poor
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#27 Vapor Trails

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 12:32 PM

View PostNikcara, on 12 November 2011 - 12:26 PM, said:

I don't think the teacher should have gotten fired, but I agree that it was stupid.  Stories like this is why I tend to be very tight-lipped on FB and any other type of social media I use.  Even when I have a bad day at work I don't disparage my boss/company/coworkers online.  I vent to people in person, or I write things in non-public areas (stories on my computer, a journal, etc.)

THANK YOU. Exactly. And even in person, I'm careful who I talk to. Not everyone needs to know your business.

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I've worked jobs that were really stressful before too.  I've listened to coworkers complain and say much, much worse things than this about our clients knowing they were blowing off steam.  But I would NEVER say those things in a place where parents/family of the clients could ever see it.  And I never repeated the things that were said to me unless I thought that the person in question was going to actually hurt a client (that happened once).

Yup.

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I would be much more interested in if she was a good teacher or not.  Was she overall a good teacher who had a bad day, or was she someone who didn't like the kids and the kids didn't like her back?

EXCELLENT point.

Quote

Also, as far as special needs/poorer kids are concerned - children of urban low income families are more likely to have lead poisoning, exposure to toxic fumes, and other environmental pollution that can cause mild to severe brain damage.  The easiest to see symptoms tend to be behavioral, and since their families don't have the money for doctor visits and tend be poorly educated themselves they often go undiagnosed.  Other problems that affect developing brains are malnutrition of the child/pregnant mother (also a problem disproportionally on the poor), fetal alcohol syndrome (not limited to the poor, but tends to be more common), chronic stress (parents/caregivers trying to make ends meet, neglect, violence in the neighborhood, etc - again not limited to the poor, but more common)  

some interesting things about growing up poor

Spot on. And I'll check out your link

EXCELLENT post, BTW. :welldone:
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#28 Orpheus

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 02:35 PM

I can't help but wonder if the teacher even *has* a good personal support network. Many people don't. That could explain both the Facebook outburst and the short fuse to begin with.

#29 Vapor Trails

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 04:59 PM

View PostOrpheus, on 12 November 2011 - 02:35 PM, said:

I can't help but wonder if the teacher even *has* a good personal support network. Many people don't. That could explain both the Facebook outburst and the short fuse to begin with.

Still no excuse, IMO. And I know a little something about not having much of a support network-particularly when things have gotten downright NASTY in my life, in a life-threatening way.

Believe me, I understand all too well the need to vent. But you've got to be REALLY careful as to WHERE you vent and WHO you vent to.
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#30 Rhea

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 12:40 PM

View PostTricia, on 10 November 2011 - 08:25 AM, said:

This puts me in mind of a certain author who I 'like' on FB who recently posted something about an unnamed friend's DUI arrest (while picking her child up from school, mind you), asked for prayers for her and then said 'let's keep this between us'.... :blink:

ROTFLOL!! What an idiot!!! :crazy::wacko:

Edited by Rhea, 16 November 2011 - 12:41 PM.

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#31 Rhea

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 01:32 PM

View PostVapor Trails, on 11 November 2011 - 02:18 PM, said:

View PostCheile, on 11 November 2011 - 01:43 PM, said:

View PostVapor Trails, on 11 November 2011 - 08:55 AM, said:

You and I will have to agree to disagree-in a BIG way. I stand by my statements. This teacher was a fool. You don't go blabbing about your problems anywhere and to anyone.

okay i'm curious....so what is a person supposed to do then--hold it all inward, making them possibly sick from the stress?  she has the right to free speech just like any American and this school she works for is violating that by penalizing her for exercising that right.

also, how about the fact that they obviously didn't help her with her problem students--one who assaulted her and others who stole from her?  i don't care if they're six year olds--that is plenty old enough to know hitting and stealing are improper behavior.  with the crappy way schools are run these days, i'm betting these little bastards never got any sort of punishment for those actions.

again, the school district should spend more time on more important issues--such as putting a stop to bullying and dealing with problem children like the ones she dealt with.

Once more-I've been through FAR worse than this teacher. Remember-I drive a school bus, and I've been doing it for over a decade and a half. You're missing my point by a mile. I DID NOT say she couldn't vent. I am saying it's about WHERE she vents.

If you're going to vent, vent around people you KNOW AND TRUST. Don't go blabbing your problems on the net!

And as others have said-Americans have the right to "free speech", but we also have to face the CONSEQUENCES of that "free speech". In fact, the phrase "free speech" is misleading, because there is a price for speaking your mind. You have to face the possible consequences of speaking out-fair or not.

That bolded part is important. EXTREMELY important. I've said this before-being naive isn't a crime, but it can be dangerous-even fatal-to be naive. And this teacher was INCREDIBLY naive.


[DIGRESSION ]t may not be entirely the parents' fault. The problem  with Asperger's kids is that they literally CAN'T read the kind of cues  like body language. It takes a lot of work to teach them how to behave  because of that.

They're  brilliant, particularly in math and the sciences. Regular ed teachers rarely understand this.

A  classically autistic child has no way to communicate. They can be  violent, and hate transitions. I remember sitting during lunch when my  friend was introducing a new food to an autistic student for whom she  was a 1:1 (meaning she was the person responsible for him while he was  at school),. He screamed for weeks, and tried to climb under the table.  Gradually, he stopped screaming and eventually tried the new food (in  fact, it became his favorite food. EVERY NEW FOOD caused the same  behavior. They also perseverate - for instance, one child was mesmerized  by the electric meter. Unless stopped, he would spend all of recess  staring at the meter. Another child would stare at the fan in our  office. When  his father made him leave, it triggered a bout of  screaming. Autistic children at home often will watch the same DVD over  and over and over and over.

The autistic child can also do hand  flapping as a form of perservation, or bang their heads again the wall  over and over and over again. You're lucky the woman at church didn't  have a child who didn't do these things - any of these things - at  church.[/DIGRESSION]

Back to the point. I don't think it's fair  for a teacher to make those kind of remarks about their students, either  individually or as a group. Once out there, millions of people read  that teacher's comments. I think it's cruel and stupid. If she wants to  vent, vent offline - most teachers discuss their students with each so why in  God's name doesn't she talk to her peers about this? If she has issues  with her peers, then talk to her best friend or a family member she can trust. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#32 Vapor Trails

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 01:43 PM

EXCELLENT post, Rhea. I agree with all of it, because I've seen this behavior too. :nod: And you summed it up SPOT ON below:

View PostRhea, on 16 November 2011 - 01:32 PM, said:

Back to the point. I don't think it's fair  for a teacher to make those kind of remarks about their students, either  individually or as a group. Once out there, millions of people read  that teacher's comments. I think it's cruel and stupid. If she wants to  vent, vent offline - most teachers discuss their students with each so why in  God's name doesn't she talk to her peers about this? If she has issues  with her peers, then talk to her best friend or a family member she can trust. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid, indeed-like that alien said in Plan 9 From Outer Space. ;)

Edited by Vapor Trails, 16 November 2011 - 01:44 PM.

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#33 Cheile

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 01:57 PM

Rhea, your post has excellent points.  HOWEVER, there is NO proof this woman was a teacher of disabled students, so it really doesn't apply to this case.

also i know kids with Asperger's...one of them is my nephew.  they have major consciences.  therefore it's extremely unlikely that an Asperger's or autistic kid would steal from his teacher.

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#34 Tricia

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 02:22 PM

From what I read of the situation I think it was a regular first grade class.  

Also it sounded like Paterson (where this happened) is a poor, urban New Jersey community with a high rate of violent crime. Not that that should make a difference if they are taught right...at home.

It's up to the parents to teach their children not to steal or hit the teacher or anyone else.  

But kids will also explore their bounddaries with adults placed in charge of them so they may not do those things around mom and dad or whoever is raising them but will with the teacher.  But some kids don't learn that at home either.  Trouble is that teachers are having to deal with a lot of kids exploring those boundaries at once.

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#35 Vapor Trails

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:33 PM

View PostTricia, on 16 November 2011 - 02:22 PM, said:

From what I read of the situation I think it was a regular first grade class.  

Also it sounded like Paterson (where this happened) is a poor, urban New Jersey community with a high rate of violent crime. Not that that should make a difference if they are taught right...at home.

It's up to the parents to teach their children not to steal or hit the teacher or anyone else.  


But kids will also explore their bounddaries with adults placed in charge of them so they may not do those things around mom and dad or whoever is raising them but will with the teacher.  But some kids don't learn that at home either.  Trouble is that teachers are having to deal with a lot of kids exploring those boundaries at once.


As to the bold-yeah, Paterson has a high rate of crime. But once more, I want to bring up this point by Nikcara:

Quote

Also, as far as special needs/poorer kids are concerned - children of urban low income families are more likely to have lead poisoning, exposure to toxic fumes, and other environmental pollution that can cause mild to severe brain damage. The easiest to see symptoms tend to be behavioral, and since their families don't have the money for doctor visits and tend be poorly educated themselves they often go undiagnosed. Other problems that affect developing brains are malnutrition of the child/pregnant mother (also a problem disproportionally on the poor), fetal alcohol syndrome (not limited to the poor, but tends to be more common), chronic stress (parents/caregivers trying to make ends meet, neglect, violence in the neighborhood, etc - again not limited to the poor, but more common)

Yes, some of this is due to poor parenting skills, resulting in undisciplined kids. But these other factors above also weigh in heavily.
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Politicians are like bananas; they hang together, they're all yellow, and there's not a straight one among them.

"We're relevant for $ and a vote once every two years. Beyond that, we're completely irrelevant, except of course to consume, and preach the gospel according to [insert political demigod here]."--Cait

#36 Nikcara

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 07:33 PM

To be fair, the link I provided really wasn't the best.  I made the post based on information I already knew and did a quick search to find a link that supported my argument (I mostly learned about high rates of mild brain damage in the poor from epidemiological studies in grad school that I couldn't link to even if I tracked them all down).  But if you decide to research it you can put together a number of sites with similar/corresponding information, like one site describing the effects of air pollution on children and another site mapping the heaviest amounts of such pollution.  I just really didn't have the time.

But yeah, America's poor kids have a heck of a lot stacked against them.  It's just easier to say "work hard and you'll be successful!" than to actually address these problems.  Too many people prefer to blame poor people for being poor and label any reason that someone might not be able to fight their way to a better life as an excuse.  Fixing the problems would be a long and expensive process and too many people profit from not fixing them.

Wow I'm feeling cynical tonight.  I think I'm going to go drink some cocoa and try to stop thinking about the stupid and the greedy.
We have fourty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse  -- Rudyard Kipling

Develop compassion for your enemies, that is genuine compassion.  Limited compassion cannot produce this altruism.  -- H. H. the Dalai Lama

#37 Tricia

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 07:48 PM

Oh I agree about those other factors too wasn't dismissing them.  

There's defintely a lot of things that lead to badly behaving kids.

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You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#38 Vapor Trails

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 12:28 AM

View PostNikcara, on 16 November 2011 - 07:33 PM, said:

Wow I'm feeling cynical tonight.

**snort**

That's how I am, every waking moment of the day. :p

Quote

I think I'm going to go drink some cocoa and try to stop thinking about the stupid and the greedy.

I wish I could-but they won't let me. :angry:
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Politicians are like bananas; they hang together, they're all yellow, and there's not a straight one among them.

"We're relevant for $ and a vote once every two years. Beyond that, we're completely irrelevant, except of course to consume, and preach the gospel according to [insert political demigod here]."--Cait

#39 Vapor Trails

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 12:44 AM

View PostNikcara, on 16 November 2011 - 07:33 PM, said:

But yeah, America's poor kids have a heck of a lot stacked against them.  It's just easier to say "work hard and you'll be successful!" than to actually address these problems.  Too many people prefer to blame poor people for being poor and label any reason that someone might not be able to fight their way to a better life as an excuse.  Fixing the problems would be a long and expensive process and too many people profit from not fixing them.

THIS.
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Politicians are like bananas; they hang together, they're all yellow, and there's not a straight one among them.

"We're relevant for $ and a vote once every two years. Beyond that, we're completely irrelevant, except of course to consume, and preach the gospel according to [insert political demigod here]."--Cait


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