Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Occupy takes off the gloves

Occupy Wall Street OWS 2011

  • Please log in to reply
13 replies to this topic

#1 Hambil

Hambil
  • Islander
  • 5,492 posts

Posted 11 November 2011 - 09:03 PM

link

Trying to shut down the stock exchange is going to be ugly.

#2 NeuralClone

NeuralClone
  • Islander
  • 23,092 posts

Posted 11 November 2011 - 10:42 PM

I'm going to be blunt. This is probably one of the stupidest plans they've come up with yet and just shows how little is actually understood about what it is they're doing. All this proves to me is that this movement has absolutely no understanding of economics or what it is that actually happens on Wall Street. How is attempting to crash the NYSE going to help anyone? Are they trying to cause an economic crisis/make things worse for the average person? It certainly seems that way.

Edited by NeuralClone, 11 November 2011 - 10:51 PM.

"My sexuality's not the most interesting thing about me."
— Cosima Niehaus, Orphan Black, "Governed By Sound Reason and True Religion"

#3 Hambil

Hambil
  • Islander
  • 5,492 posts

Posted 11 November 2011 - 11:00 PM

That's just too funny. OWS is trying to crash the economy? After what Wallstreet and the government have done (and not done) to create this debt crisis? We have a "Super Committee playing chicken over taxes" and OWS is trying to crash the economy? That's precious.

Shutting down Wallstreet will reverberate around the world. This is a movement about awareness and knowledge. And since we OWS folks are all ignorant on how the economy really works, please, explain it as clearly as you can to me. I'll c&p it to them. Oh, or you can go to their website and set them straight. Or even to the closest GA. We welcome your input and help.

#4 NeuralClone

NeuralClone
  • Islander
  • 23,092 posts

Posted 11 November 2011 - 11:18 PM

View PostHambil, on 11 November 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:

That's just too funny. OWS is trying to crash the economy? After what Wallstreet and the government have done (and not done) to create this debt crisis? We have a "Super Committee playing chicken over taxes" and OWS is trying to crash the economy? That's precious.
I'm glad my opinion amuses you. Now that that's out of the way and you've had your laugh, can we actually have a conversation now please?

Quote

Shutting down Wallstreet will reverberate around the world. This is a movement about awareness and knowledge. And since we OWS folks are all ignorant on how the economy really works, please, explain it as clearly as you can to me. I'll c&p it to them. Oh, or you can go to their website and set them straight. Or even to the closest GA. We welcome your input and help.
Since I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about, what exactly is supposed to happen when Wall Street grinds to a halt? What's the end goal? How will disrupting the NYSE do a single thing to help the cause (whatever it may be on a given day)? It's going to reverberate around the world all right. I just don't think it's going to be in the positive way you think it will.

You're also taking my comments WAY too personally. I'm referring to the movement as a whole and how it's coming across to me. Unless you happen to be the person to come up with this particular plan to disrupt the NYSE, my comments weren't directed at you.

I get that people are angry, frustrated, and feeling it financially. I get that. But disrupting Wall Street and camping out on public land with signs won't do anything to solve the problems this country is facing. It just won't. I strongly believe that things do need changing in this country. I think the two major political parties are broken and corrupt to their cores. I think there is and has been corruption on Wall Street. But I also think that trying to place the blame on ALL of Wall Street and the top 1% of the wealthy is not only philosophically wrong but based on distorted and incorrect facts.

I'd rather see people using their time and energy to make changes using the existing systems in place (i.e., lobby in Congress, try to get new laws passed, etc.) and stop trying to blame all of their problems on the richest people in the country, many of whom donate tons of money to those in less fortunate situations (even if they don't, it's their legal right to do what they want with their money).

Edited by NeuralClone, 11 November 2011 - 11:32 PM.

"My sexuality's not the most interesting thing about me."
— Cosima Niehaus, Orphan Black, "Governed By Sound Reason and True Religion"

#5 Hambil

Hambil
  • Islander
  • 5,492 posts

Posted 11 November 2011 - 11:36 PM

I'd rather see people go to the OWS website or many of it's off shoots and find out what they are really about.

You forgot to discuss the economy, though. I am not trying to make it personal. However, when told in reference to a group I support: "All this proves to me is that this movement has absolutely no understanding of economics or what it is that actually happens on Wall Street." of course I'm going to ask for some information and education on the subject.

#6 QuiGon John

QuiGon John

    Gone

  • Islander
  • 4,158 posts

Posted 12 November 2011 - 12:49 AM

But doesn't shutting down the stock exchange seem like something that is rather more likely to hurt the economy-- and thus the poor-- than to produce any positive result? Destabilizing a nation's financial centers is generally considered to be a risky thing, is it not?

#7 Hambil

Hambil
  • Islander
  • 5,492 posts

Posted 12 November 2011 - 12:55 AM

I disagree. Reckless would be to let things continue as always.

Do you really believe anything will get fixed with business as usual? We can't change things from inside the system until the system takes us seriously.

Edited by Hambil, 12 November 2011 - 01:01 AM.


#8 UoR11

UoR11
  • Islander
  • 1,839 posts

Posted 12 November 2011 - 01:57 AM

Look, I agree with OWS that crony capitalism is bad, but the problem is the cronyism, not the capitalism. The biggest obstacle to recovery is the fact that long term planning is effectively impossible when Congress keeps changing the rules. That's why firms are sitting on cash right now, because there's effectively no way to come up with estimates of future returns. And trying to shut down the NYSE will only make things worse.
Yes, I am an economist. Yes, I do frequently sing "Can't Buy Me Love". No, I don't see any contradiction there.

#9 NeuralClone

NeuralClone
  • Islander
  • 23,092 posts

Posted 12 November 2011 - 08:43 AM

View PostHambil, on 11 November 2011 - 11:36 PM, said:

I'd rather see people go to the OWS website or many of it's off shoots and find out what they are really about.
Believe it or not but I actually have gone to the OWS website. And it didn't help clarify anything. It read a lot like political talking points.

Quote

You forgot to discuss the economy, though. I am not trying to make it personal. However, when told in reference to a group I support: "All this proves to me is that this movement has absolutely no understanding of economics or what it is that actually happens on Wall Street." of course I'm going to ask for some information and education on the subject.
I wasn't going to respond since you couldn't be bothered to address any of my points and felt it was a better approach to simply laugh at them without backing up any of yours. But what the hell? I'm freezing my butt off on a Saturday morning and I'm waiting for my computer to boot up so I can play Skyrim. So I'll bite.

Quite simply, the NYSE is the largest stock exchange in the US. That makes it a major financial center for the United States and makes it that much more important to our economy, and to the world. If you were to take the NYSE out of the picture immediately, our economy would collapse and this would have world wide ramifications. That isn't an exaggeration. No NYSE, no US economy. No US economy, no stable world economy. I'm not saying that a temporary disruption of the stock exchange would lead to that or that it's equivalent to that cataclysmic scenario. I brought it up to make a point about just how important the NYSE is to this country. There is no way a disruption would benefit the "99%." If anything, it could hurt the average person more. I don't see how it would help anyone. The only thing I see this doing is causing more damage.

That is why this is a nonsensical and stupid move to me. And that is why it feels to me like OWS has no understanding of the things it's protesting against. I'm not saying that ALL of those who support the movement are stupid or ignorant. But there is definitely a bit of the latter when it comes to some of the core stances the movement has taken.

If the NYSE were taken out of the picture or was unable to operate for an extended period of time, it would create a financial crisis far worse than the one in 2008.

OWS keeps demonizing large banks, corporations, and the top 1% of the wealthy. What it conveniently ignores is just how many people are employed by those banks and corporations. It also ignores that the companies that received bailout money are on plans to pay back the government for the money they were loaned. And there are many other convenient tricks with statistics that they've been using to get things to fit neatly into the 99% vs. 1% theme. I have a serious problem with that.

Edited by NeuralClone, 12 November 2011 - 08:51 AM.

"My sexuality's not the most interesting thing about me."
— Cosima Niehaus, Orphan Black, "Governed By Sound Reason and True Religion"

#10 Hambil

Hambil
  • Islander
  • 5,492 posts

Posted 12 November 2011 - 10:29 AM

Well, I've done a ton of reading since this all started. Is the movement perfect, no. But one thing that is important is to focus on the result of the GAs, since direct democracy is a bit ugly to watch. But, what they have is a concensus building process, and as they continue to strength their link to other movements (right now every movement in every city is very, very loosely connected - this action is the first national call to action) the less centered folks, and agent provocateurs will get even further marginalized.

For one thing, the movement is still clarifying it's message. We are the 99% and Occupy Wallstreet are great rallying calls for signs, and have done wonders. But, as with any slogan, they are imperfect (life is always more complex than a slogan). One of the big focuses right now is to get the message out that this is not a movement about demands, as others initially tried to frame it, but a movement about goals - like getting money out of politics. One of the biggest things the movement wants is the end of lobbying (all lobbying, unions too).

From the Declaration of the Occupation on the GA sight (www.nycga.net).

Quote

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

  • They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
  • They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
  • They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
  • They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
  • They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
  • They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
  • They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
  • They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
  • They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
  • They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
  • They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
  • They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
  • They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
  • They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
  • They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
  • They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
  • They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
  • They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
  • They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
  • They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
  • They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
  • They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
  • They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

I would love to discuss any and all of these issues, and more, in detail.

Edited by Hambil, 12 November 2011 - 11:16 AM.


#11 Nikcara

Nikcara

    confused little imp

  • Islander
  • 3,500 posts

Posted 12 November 2011 - 11:34 AM

View PostJohn Burke, on 12 November 2011 - 12:49 AM, said:

But doesn't shutting down the stock exchange seem like something that is rather more likely to hurt the economy-- and thus the poor-- than to produce any positive result? Destabilizing a nation's financial centers is generally considered to be a risky thing, is it not?

I hate to sound like an ass, but how exactly does the stock exchange affect my job?  I made pharmaceutical drugs.  Are people going to stop needing them if the Dow drops too much?  How about other industries - is demand for food, cars, roads, houses or anything else going to change?  I know there's a ton of money to be made/lost on the stock exchange, but how the heck the buying and selling of stock affect production and the sales of real items?  The value of a stock is based on how well a company is doing - if a company can't buy or sell stock for a few days it shouldn't change anything about how the company is able to do business unless ALL the company does is invest in the stock trade.  And those companies don't have very many low-income jobs tied to them.  Even the lower-paying jobs (secretaries, janitors, etc.) won't have to worry about their jobs if the stocks are closed for a day or two.  The stock exchange already closes for various holidays without the world imploding every time they do.

Besides even if they closed the physical New York Stock Exchange most stocks are bought and traded online now.  If Anonymous decided to take on the stock exchange I'd be a hell of a lot more worried about it.  This is just going to keep some brokers in their office for a day, if that.  The protesters aren't planning on physically blocking anyone entrance (at least as far as the article states), they just plan on making a lot of noise.
We have fourty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse  -- Rudyard Kipling

Develop compassion for your enemies, that is genuine compassion.  Limited compassion cannot produce this altruism.  -- H. H. the Dalai Lama

#12 Hambil

Hambil
  • Islander
  • 5,492 posts

Posted 12 November 2011 - 11:46 AM

They plan to shout down the opening bell with a peoples bell. Then I believe they are going to move back to the street for a day long street party celebrating neighborhoods ruined by greed. There are other events planned.

#13 Tricia

Tricia

    To err on the side of kindness is seldom an error.

  • Islander
  • 10,245 posts

Posted 12 November 2011 - 12:27 PM

Whoa!

Quite frankly I'm a little confused as to how this truly shuts down Wall Street as the details indicate more of a symbolic thing with the 'street carnival' and then events all over the city.

Quote

“Join Occupy Wall Street and 99%ers from across the country as we shut down the stock market by throwing a block party the 1% will never forget,” the page states.

Sources within the Occupy Wall Street movement confirmed that the page, which details plans to stop the opening bell from ringing, is authentic.

The page says that a “People's Bell” will ring out instead, and outlines plans for a street carnival in which protesters “rebuild and celebrate the neighborhoods that the Wall Street economy has destroyed.” The action is expected to focus on housing, food, the environment, health care and education, with people from communities telling their stories and protesters constructing monuments to signify the rebuilding of neighborhoods.

>>>
The Stock Exchange protest, which is expected to start around 7 a.m., will kick off a daylong series of actions that will culminate in a rally in Foley Square and a march over the Brooklyn Bridge.

After the morning events, protesters will fan out across the city at various transportation hubs, holding public assemblies where people can talk about their communities' needs. They will then symbolically “Occupy the Subway” and head to lower Manhattan for the rally at Foley Square and march over the Brooklyn Bridge.

The rally and march are being organized in conjunction with more than a dozen unions and community groups, including United NY, New York Communities for Change, Strong Economy for All and Make the Road New York. Some two dozen other groups have endorsed the march, which will focus on the need to create jobs and extend the so-called millionaire's tax. It's part of a nationwide campaign that is expected to see rallies in about 30 cities.


Shouting down the bell is not the same as closing the NYSE down for the day.

Color me confused here but I'll read more later.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#14 Bobby

Bobby

    FKA LiberalBob

  • Islander
  • 4,369 posts

Posted 12 November 2011 - 02:34 PM

View PostNeuralClone, on 11 November 2011 - 11:18 PM, said:


Since I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about, what exactly is supposed to happen when Wall Street grinds to a halt? What's the end goal? How will disrupting the NYSE do a single thing to help the cause (whatever it may be on a given day)? It's going to reverberate around the world all right. I just don't think it's going to be in the positive way you think it will.

You're also taking my comments WAY too personally. I'm referring to the movement as a whole and how it's coming across to me. Unless you happen to be the person to come up with this particular plan to disrupt the NYSE, my comments weren't directed at you.

I get that people are angry, frustrated, and feeling it financially. I get that. But disrupting Wall Street and camping out on public land with signs won't do anything to solve the problems this country is facing. It just won't. I strongly believe that things do need changing in this country. I think the two major political parties are broken and corrupt to their cores. I think there is and has been corruption on Wall Street. But I also think that trying to place the blame on ALL of Wall Street and the top 1% of the wealthy is not only philosophically wrong but based on distorted and incorrect facts.

I'd rather see people using their time and energy to make changes using the existing systems in place (i.e., lobby in Congress, try to get new laws passed, etc.) and stop trying to blame all of their problems on the richest people in the country, many of whom donate tons of money to those in less fortunate situations (even if they don't, it's their legal right to do what they want with their money).

Most of the people would rather be working and don't think someone owes them a job.  They just want the people in the top to stop abusing the system.  I think seeing those mobs camped out on PUBLIC grounds does quite a bit. It reminds them that the devil finds work for idle hands, most revolutions take place when people have time on their hands and bad living conditions, granted, even poor in America is nothing like in a third world country, but the people still lack and if it's housing and food as is becoming more and more the case they are screwed.  Really, most of those people who "earn" there money, what do they actually do to earn it?  Invest it?  Socialism doesn't work and I'm not for it but you act like the OWS people want the fruits of someone else's labor when there was very little labor involved but they pay less in taxes than the middle class percentage wise.  Granted, everyone harps on how Warren Buffet says he's willing to pay more and FOX news has made light of the fact that he waited until he's old to conveniently discover his secretary pays more in taxes percent wise than he does.  

I'm sure they'd all LOVE to be at home snug in bed and getting a good night's rest before work and letting Congress do their job.  Only problem is, those old avenues of using the system don't work because all politicians are whores of a sort and even the ones who want to do right have to compromise their high ideals to get even minor things done.   The system itself isn't screwed up it's the people in it and big money is what's corrupting it so the Occupy Wall Street people have simply cut out the middle man and went to the top.

I say having them on the front lawn reminds them the consequences for their actions when the people get restless.  Every person may only be responsible for themselves and their minor children but we ALL have a responsibility to society as a whole.  And those people on Wall Street have managed to affect everyone in some shape or form so they shouldn't be crying foul when people stop by to say hi.

On the other hand, unrest and uncertainty in any country is a bad thing, but here in the model of stability?  And for them to be doing it on Wall Street?  The world's financial markets are already spooked with the supposed financial collapse of Italy coming next. And they say we're pretty much in a double dip recession or there almost depending on which analyst you listen to on which network.

I think it does them good to be scared so they'll get their sh*t together.  When you have a job on Wall Street you are just as beholden to the public as you are in elected office, imo, because your decisions affect so many on a worldwide scale.



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Occupy Wall Street, OWS, 2011

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users