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Occupy Wall Street vs Tea Party

Occupy Wall Street OWS 2011 Tea Party

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9 replies to this topic

Poll: Occupy Wall Street vs Tea Party (13 member(s) have cast votes)

Which side do you sympathize/side with?

  1. Occupy Wall Street (6 votes [46.15%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 46.15%

  2. Tea Party (4 votes [30.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.77%

  3. Both to certain degrees (2 votes [15.38%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 15.38%

  4. Neither-division is what's tearing the country apart (1 votes [7.69%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.69%

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#1 Bobby

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 08:22 PM

I got the new issue of Rolling Stone in the mail today and while it's liberal bias is as subtle as a brick through the windshield, it did raise a lot interesting points.  One thing bothered me though in the article on how the Republican Party became the party of the rich, it was the writers constant use of the word revenue in regards to taxes.  He kept implying that the government was giving away money in the form of tax breaks to the wealthy.

http://www.rollingst...nk=mostpopular1


The Tea Party sees any form of taxes beyond what's required to pay for necessities as being socialist/communist.  They appeal to people's sense of fairness by saying that everyone should have to pay their share and that's why a flat tax is so popular and in theory it sounds great.  They believe in upward mobility, if you work hard enough and that your money is your own, not the government's, hence they support lower taxes.  And that's why they resonated in the last election.

Occupy Wall Street hasn't really formed a cohesive message but what most want is for the system to be as fair as possible.  Finally people have had enough of big money controlling the government, it's been known for a long time, which makes the quote that goes something like, "true change only occurs when living with the status quo is more painful than the change itself" all too true.  Too many are being left out while CEOs get huge paychecks, in any organization there are different pay grades based on responsibilites but the bonuses are outrageous by any measure, especially when it's people who helped run the economy into the ditch who are getting them.  

People accept that there are different pay rates but this a nation of over 300 million people, a planet with 7 billion, and anyone can do that math and know that it's ridiculous for any CEO of a PUBLICLY traded company to make that kind of money.  It's all about supply and demand we are all commodities when it comes to the workforce.  This why I don't have so much of a problem with actors and atheletes making so much money, they sell their services/skill sets for what we are willing to pay but it's an even field based on skill, for the most part.  Corporate America is more incestous and the opportunities are more insular because friends tend to give each other a leg up.  This is the gist of the problem from what I gather the majority of the protestors are against.

The Tea Party believes that people should be allowed to keep what they earn.  In regards to inheritances, this resonates because people worked their whole lives for their money and have already paid taxes on it once, and they should be allowed to leave it to whomever they want, and there is a great point for it.  Small business owners are pro less taxes because they work for their money, it isn't invested income, well, they do invest in their business but that is different, it's how they make their living.  They deserves the fruits of their labor and employ other people in most instances.

The Occupy Wall Street groups think that society, the needs of the many, rates higher than that of the idividual, the needs of the few.  Social programs benefit all, better to have help when you need it.  Better to provide assistance, unemployment benefits, food stamps, health care, to the needy through government than to let the masses starve, be homeless, or outright die.  We can finance a military to protect us from being killed by enemies, both foriegn and domestic, but not disease or starvation, which doesn't make sense.  We are promised Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, the key being LIFE.  So they are for higher taxes on the rich in order to pay for these things.

The Tea Party, if Michelle Bachman is truly representative of their values, are consertative on social issues like gay marriage, on the one hand claiming they want less government but want an amendment to ban gay marriage which is government interference.  I can only assume most of the Occupy Wall Street group support equality on all levels.  The Tea Party has racist elements within their movement, and even Rolling Stone acknowledges Occupy Wall Street was started by anarchists.  
There are public health concerns when people get together in groups like that but Americans are allowed to protest and PUBLIC property is PUBLIC property so it's time to acknowledge both and quit trying to play them up or down, in any group their will be fringe elements.  I never understood how people at Tea Party rallies could abide the racist signs, you are judged by the company you keep and what you will tolerate, fairly or unfairly.  I know I'd have to speak up, the same as if I were at an Occupy movement around anarchists and communists.

Both sides have valid points but government should provide assistance to a point.  People aren't entitled to others money but those horded billions come from EVERYONE's work.  Some mythical welfare queens from the 1980s have raised children who have more than paid back anything that there mothers took out of the system to help raise them.  We are ALL invested in the success of our society.  We do have to cut spending but it's also come time to pay the piper, come mister tally man tally me bananas and all that, the people who have hoarded billions are going to have put that money back in circulation through taxes.  

We have the Koch brothers and this guy Grover Norquist, first time I've heard of him, on one side wanting to "starve the beast" which is also something I'd never heard of until I read the Rolling Stone article. And then you have Soros and Ayers on the other trying to overextend it.

Where the hell is the happy middle?  We now have unrest in the streets of the U.S., the world economy is on the brink, and the wolves are waiting at the edge of the woods to come out when the sun sets.  I said in another thread that Occupy Wall Street may succeed in scaring the traders and tycoons into doing the right thing and getting their act together.  On the other hand, it may also send the world economy even further to the abyss because people see unrest here, it could backfire, and the anacharists wouldn't really care.

We are a feudal system as Specs said in another thread, this being a sci fi oriented board, all those dystopian futures envisioned in movies involved corporations being more powerful than the governments of the world.  The future is now, so it makes sense that the Occupy Movement has gone to Wall Street, which is basically the draw bridge to the castle where the new royalty holds court.  Our government isn't broken in the sense that the Founders set up a system that has endured for 200 years, it's just been highjacked and corrupted by special interests with the money to buy politicans.  

We don't need a full on rebellion or revolution, we need a change in mentality, we need to stop feeling entitled but we also need to realize that we ALL benefit if people have the basic necessities, if nothing else then it doesn't let us descend into "please, sir, may I have some more" territory.  People bought into the hope and change in 2008 and the Tea Party appealed to peoples idea of fairness in 2010.  2012 will be all about coming back to reality, it's gonna be about survival, more personal than ever, people are tired of Republicans holding the country hostage to cater to the rich and Democracts trying to call tax revenue and acting like letting people keep their money is a kindness and they should be happy with what they get.  It'll be the year of compromise, the loons will fall to the wayside.

Well, I've rambled on, not like I've been posting much over the last year, lol, if you've read this far, thank you.  What say you?

Edited by LiberalBob, 15 November 2011 - 08:38 PM.


#2 Hambil

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:45 AM

Both of the remaining tea-party hardcore supports that seem to still be in OT are on ignore until after the election to be honest. I'd rather talk to a wall.

Turns out one of them I can't put on ignore. I will give it some thought, but I may actually just leave until after the election. Not sure I can deal with a moderator backed tea-party reality bubble for a year.

Edited to add: Yeah, took a couple minutes and that was an easy decision after all. I can't do it. I can't take a year of it, not when I can't even put the person on ignore. Good luck :) There are no hearts and minds here to win anyway.

Edited by Hambil, 16 November 2011 - 09:54 AM.


#3 Bobby

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:55 AM

View PostHambil, on 16 November 2011 - 09:45 AM, said:

Both of the remaining tea-party hardcore supports that seem to still be in OT are on ignore until after the election to be honest. I'd rather talk to a wall.

Turns out one of them I can't put on ignore. I will give it some thought, but I may actually just leave until after the election. Not sure I can deal with a moderator backed tea-party reality bubble for a year.

Don't leave, I understand the impulse all too well, I haven't been on the net much over the past year.  I paid the cable company 30 bucks for months before I finally dropped internet service all together when I realized how little I was logging on.  Part of the reason was I realized how much stuff was getting to me on sites I was visiting, I get your mental health issues, I'm bi polar myself.  Just remember everyone has their own perspectives on things and it doesn't make their position right.  You can only control you and you do your damnedest to counter balance them, granted, on a message board most of the time it's pointless but at least you've dropped your ideas into the well of thought.  You contribute a lot around here, I'm always glad to see you around and about, if nothing else avoid the OT.

#4 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:56 AM

Hi Bob- it looks like you might've read S.E.'s column for today -
http://www.nydailyne...rticle-1.977949

I think she's not quite accurate in that OWS's emphasis isn't anger at the government per se but capitalism and modern banking and the Daddy Warbucks' of the world.

BTW - Tea Party and Gay Marriage ban?  Not so much.

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#5 Hambil

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 10:01 AM

Yes, people are entitled to their opinions and I would never want to step on that, and my intent was not to turn this into an "I'm leaving thread" - I meant leaving OT. Sorry for any confusion.

But I am done aggravating myself with pointless conversation on a message board when there is real work to be done. I'd rather talk about TV here, and take my politics to the streets.

#6 Bobby

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 10:14 AM

View PostNittany Lioness, on 16 November 2011 - 09:56 AM, said:

Hi Bob- it looks like you might've read S.E.'s column for today -
http://www.nydailyne...rticle-1.977949

I think she's not quite accurate in that OWS's emphasis isn't anger at the government per se but capitalism and modern banking and the Daddy Warbucks' of the world.

BTW - Tea Party and Gay Marriage ban?  Not so much.

http://www.nydailyne...rticle-1.977949

Nah, I hadn't read it, thanks for sharing, she sums it up here well:

Quote

Candidates who takes sides risk alienating entire swaths of disgruntled voters. And so it will take an understanding not just of economics, but of sociology, to make a convincing argument. Those running for office who take their lessons from Hoffer and effectively realize the commonalities between the Tea Partyers and Occupy Wall Street will have the best chance at winning the message war.

S.E. Cupp, I've seen her on Fox news before, I think, yeah, I watched Fox after CNN and MSNBC never gave Hillary a fair shake.  I can handle Sheppard Smith and Megyn Kelly.  I don't really read conservative bloggers like S.E. Cupp.

As for the social values, I know the different Tea Parties don't all agree, but how representative is Michelle Bachman of the most of the movement, in your opinion.

Edited by LiberalBob, 16 November 2011 - 10:16 AM.


#7 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:25 AM

On the gov't banning gay marriage?  I think she and they are apples and kumquats. Spending and taxes- that's what's in the sights of the tea party.

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#8 Vapor Trails

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:27 AM

Hey LiberalBob,

This is going to be the only post I'm making about this, since you asked. In email, I told someone from this board that I felt it would be a mistake if I said anything-and I may still regret it.

I'm ambivalent about both movements.

Firstly-this George Carlin bit sums up my feelings to a T:

George Carlin On The American Dream-YouTube (Strong Language)

I decided I won't discuss this on EI because skeptical, ambivalent "middle-of-the-road" voices like mine are ignored-and I was once criticized for trying to "shut down discussion". For me, it isn't enough to hope. Hope is not a plan. I've been through enough adversity in my life that it's not enough to hear lofty, inspirational speeches. Unless things translate into concrete actions that benefit people, those are just pretty words. Yet-if I say those things, I'm ignored or told I "shut down discussion".

And to be honest-there are people here on this board who have made up their minds, are in their respective corners-and some of them aren't satisfied until they are at each others' throats. I put some of these folks on ignore-from both sides.

It's just as well, anyway. I don't need to interact with everyone here. :eh:

Edited by Vapor Trails, 16 November 2011 - 11:31 AM.

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#9 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 01:45 PM

The always awesome Jonah Goldberg just summed it up succinctly:

It took 2 years of MSM slander to demonize tea parties. It took 2 months of OWS behavior, despite MSM whitewashing, to become unpopular.

I'm cold Howard.jpg


#10 Mary Rose

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:07 PM

I think your post was very well written and well thought out.  It didn't take sides and was fair to both sides IMO.  I think they were both born of frustration and anger.  I'm pretty cynical, myself.  I think both Democrats and Republicans suck.  Will these movements make any difference?  I don't know.  I hope so, but only time will tell.
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