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UC Davis Police Pepper-Spray Defenseless Students

Occupy Wall Street OWS 2011

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#21 Hambil

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 04:52 PM

^ I think the one common goal might be ending lobbying (all across the board - Unions and Companies. It has to be a total 'cease fire' or it won't work, and that can only be achieved by law, perhaps even constitutional amendment).

#22 BklnScott

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 12:11 PM

Baldy, Hambil and Nonny wrote:

View PostBalderdash, on 20 November 2011 - 12:12 PM, said:

View PostBklnScott, on 20 November 2011 - 12:02 PM, said:

Oh, and re the subway, like hambil you apparently missed the point which is that f*cking with it does nothing to inconvenience the 1% but does a lot to alienate the movement's natural allies, ie people like me.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard that said by friends and coworkers in the last few days -- people like me who have been part of or sympathetic to this movement from the very start.  It was a bad call, baldy.  Getting defensive about it just proves my larger point -- that the movement is getting knee jerk defensive about any criticism even when offered by the friendliest sort of people and risking crib death as a result.

I agree that they need to "grow or die" and I agree that the 1% aren't using the subway's.  What pissed me off is the dirty hippy crap.  First, it's a lie and you undermine the movement when you carry the other sides water.  They don't need to be undermined by their own, Fox news will take care of that.  Some of us have been posting and trying to counter the lies that are being spread about the Occupy movement.

View PostHambil, on 20 November 2011 - 12:37 PM, said:

And the  hippie crack, just wow. If anyone should know better than to spread prejudice...

View PostNonny, on 20 November 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

"Dirty hippies"?     :headshake:

:headshake:, indeed.  

After all these years and everything you know about me and my political beliefs, Baldy, Hambil, Nonny: please do me a favor, would you?  Step back from these knee jerk reactions and take another look at what I actually posted.  

Consider that I might not have morphed from lifelong lefty liberal into Sean Hannity right before your very eyes, that I might even have -- egads! -- a constructive point in mind here, and that I might be making it not because I want to put a knife in the back of the Occupy movement, but because I consider myself to be someone who has their back and wants them to succeed.

I was involved in this from the very beginning, from before anyone outside of New York City even heard of Zucotti Park, so I think I'm entitled to speak bluntly about the movement and its participants, and I take offense to being told that I'm "carrying the other side's water" if I dare to offer criticism when I think they have blundered.  

Now, here's what I posted:

Quote

Check this out. UC Davis students protesting Chancellor Katehi. Now, this is how to do it. They're quiet. They're polite. They're not littering. They're creepily effective -- so much mores than a bunch of hippies camped out in tents ever could be. The UC Davis incident is a game changer and the ball's in the Occupy movement's court. If they step up and move to the next phase, they could become a force to be reckoned with in Election 2012. If they give us more of the same... if they fall back on their bickering, park-befouling nonsense, people will continue to dismiss them as dirty hippies. Which would be a shame.

Bolding added for emphasis, since everyone but Tricia and Bob seems to have missed these telltales the first time around.  

Am I calling these people "dirty hippies?"  Or am I talking about how others perceive them and how it would be unfortunate if the movement did anything to perpetuate that perception rather than actively seeking to counter it.  And hey, call me crazy, but they might even start working to establish a reputation as trenchant professionals.  

It's time -- hell, it's past time -- to grow beyond tents in parks and bickering over what they stand for like they're an outtake from Monty Python's Life of Brian, and if they don't, they will fail to become what they COULD and I hope WILL become -- what we NEED them to become.

You know, there are a lot of people you talk to in Zucotti Park who say the Occupy movement is about addressing the homelessness problem in this country... That it's about addressing the failed war on drugs...  That it's about antibiotics in milk, sustainable agriculture, the WTO/NAFTA, abolishing the right to private property, et al ad nauseum.

Of course, it's about none of those things, and people who think otherwise will be the death of this movement if they're not reined in.  

The Occupy movement is about driving real economic reform as we enter into the Election 2012 cycle.   Full-stop.  

They need to be focused like a laser on fighting to restore and enhance the statutory protections against market crashes that were put in place by FDR and then gutted in the 80s and 90s.  They need to be focused on bringing to justice the people who caused the crash of 2008.  (It's been two months.  You'd think by now they could have actually put forth a name or two.  I mean, *hello*.)  

And if they want to get really ambitious, they could be fostering public discourse on ways to remedy the yawning, ever-widening chasm of wealth disparity between the classes.  

And that's it.  

That's their brief.  

Now, in addition to the crazies who think the Occupy movement is about capital-R Revolution, there are a lot of people who think there's nothing wrong with Occupy as it exists today, that they got this far doing what they're doing so they should stay the course.  

These people think there's no imminent precipice to be avoided.  

They're wrong and they won't realize it until they've gone over the cliff.

What they've done up to now is make noise and get attention.  They've tapped a potent vein of anger and in so doing, they've gone viral.  

But that was the easy part.  What they do with that attention now that they've got it is what will determine how history remembers them, or indeed if it remembers them at all.  

Attacking the subway?  

That's the impulse of anarchists.  

It was destructive, and it hurt the movement.  Anybody who doesn't recognize that is, IMO, fooling themselves.

If the Occupy movement makes common cause with the packs of animals that follow WTO and G8/G20 meetings around the world for the sole purpose of rioting in the host cities, we've all lost.  

And yes, that's a real possibility.  

View PostHambil, on 20 November 2011 - 12:37 PM, said:

I still support your right to marry Scott. I'd even let my commute get messed up for it. I'd probably die for it, if it came to that. Peace and love, from a dirty hippie.

What the hell?  Nobody asked you to die for my right to marry, Hambil, and indeed, we managed to win it in 7 states (including CA) without anyone dying or even getting hurt.  There's a strong possibility thanks to Judge Walker's Prop 8 ruling that we will get gay marriage nationwide in the next few years.  This was accomplished by working WITH, not against, the political professionals.  

There's a lesson for Occupy in that.  

On a personal note, I'm a little concerned that you think legalizing gay marriage is an issue worth dying over.  I'm a gay man with a partner I'm planning to marry and even we don't think it's worth dying over.  Dude, it's MARRIAGE.  It's not like we're being denied suffrage, or the right to own property, or earn wages.  Have a little perspective.

More to the point, since you keep bringing up the subway issue: please do let me know what you think the utility of Occupy attacking the subway was.  I've gone on and on about what I think it lost them.  I'd love for you (or anyone) to let me know what you think they GAINED by doing that.

Edited by BklnScott, 21 November 2011 - 12:22 PM.

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#23 Hambil

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 01:12 PM

Scott, I started out agreeing with you, in general. Only I got there real fast. I went down to the movement and tried to offer help. It was nearly impossible. I came there with pretty much a ready made perfect skill set for them to use, and I couldn't even find the guy who had ability to give me access to fix things on their website.

I still tend to agree with you, but, I realized this is not truly my movement. Yes, I am the 99% but I'm old. I don't believe in radical change anymore. I would never have believe this movement could get as far as it has with direct democracy.

I think it's also important to remember, that while "homelessness, the failed war on drugs, antibiotics in milk, sustainable agriculture, the WTO/NAFTA, abolishing the right to private property, et al ad nauseum" are the reasons that brought those people to the table. They need to be acknowledged, while educating people that very little can be done about them until we get money out of politics.

As for dying for your right to marry, you didn't have to ask. And it's not about your right to marry. It's about my friend who could not be at the hospital bed of the dying love of his life, or get the family to respect last wishes.

Edited by Hambil, 21 November 2011 - 01:14 PM.


#24 Balderdash

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 01:19 PM

Scott I'm sorry that you were offended but so was I, rightly or wrongly.

Quote

Check this out. UC Davis students protesting Chancellor Katehi. Now, this is how to do it. They're quiet. They're polite. They're not littering. They're creepily effective -- so much mores than a bunch of hippies camped out in tents ever could be. The UC Davis incident is a game changer and the ball's in the Occupy movement's court. If they step up and move to the next phase, they could become a force to be reckoned with in Election 2012. If they give us more of the same... if they fall back on their bickering, park-befouling nonsense, people will continue to dismiss them as dirty hippies. Which would be a shame.

It was hard for me to get past that line.  I was a "dirty hippy" back in the day and in my heart I always will be.  Even though I was never dirty and didn't know any hippy's that didn't bath at least once a day.  Dirty hippy's care more about the planet and the effect of trash on the environment and yet they still get get the "dirty hippy" thing and you can just ignore them because they are "dirty."  Another lie told by the right to minimize effect.  No one wants to be thought of as "dirty" and dirty peoples messages are dirty.  Still pisses me off.  But I agree with every other thing that you have said.  I want them to have one unifying voice that when you go to their website you can see clearly what they stand for.  I know that they stand for all the things that you mention but I make it my business to know not everyone has the will to be informed.
I apologize if you felt like I was having a knee-jerk reaction but reread what you wrote and maybe you will see how I might have come to that reaction.  I hate how progressives are their own worse enemies.  If we could just be as ruthless and unprincipled as the opposition we might get somewhere.  Anyway, hugs brother!

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#25 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 11:34 PM

I have refrained from posting, before now, because I really had to calm down. The comments I started to write, on this topic, would've, without doubt, had the police knocking on LoP's door, since he is the board owner. But, now that I've calmed down somewhat....


The piece of sh*t, poor excuse for a human, that sprayed the innocent is only on admin leave...probably WITH pay. I will put good money that criminal does NOT spend any time in jail. Which only proves my earlier comments that every citizen should be armed with a gun, loaded with cop killer rounds.

What should be done to the criminal sprayer, besides a couple decades of prison...in General Population....I can't post that on this board.

I would like to think that this video would shock everyone to the realization that the cops are so far out of control it isn't even funny. Hell, they make the character of Vic Mackey (The Shield) look like a choir boy in comparison. But the sad fact is...nothing will be done. Nothing was done to the cop, that had a airman on the ground, at gun point, and when the cop told the airman to get up, the airman complied, only to be shot. Nothing was done about the swat murderers that broke into the marine's house, opened fire with automatic rifles, and then they made sure he was dead by refusing the marine medical treatment for over a hour.

There are way too many cases of police corruption and abuse to list...the fact of the matter is that the police in America make Osama Bin laden, and Saddam Hussain, look like saints.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#26 Captain Jack

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 03:52 AM

View PostPalisades, on 20 November 2011 - 02:58 AM, said:

We are becoming a fascist police state.

Agreed.
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#27 NeuralClone

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:06 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 21 November 2011 - 11:34 PM, said:

There are way too many cases of police corruption and abuse to list...the fact of the matter is that the police in America make Osama Bin laden, and Saddam Hussain, look like saints.
I've intentionally been refraining from posting in this thread for reasons I won't get into here but I had to comment on this statement right. The "police in America make Osama Bin laden, and Saddam Hussain [sic], look like saints." You can't be serious. I really hope that you were using hyperbole to try to make a point about how you feel about American police. If not, then we might as well add Bashar al-Assad to that list too. After all, he's butchering and torturing civilians in Syria and that's clearly on the same level as police brutality in America. (Yes, that's sarcasm in case anyone has any doubt about that statement.)

I'm not saying that what happened at UC Davis isn't awful or that it's justified in any way. It was excessive force given what happened. It's just nowhere near the level of the kinds of things that have been happening elsewhere in the world. I'm not trying to tell you what you can and can't say. But I thought it might help to try to keep things in perspective.

View PostPalisades, on 20 November 2011 - 02:58 AM, said:

We are becoming a fascist police state.
We aren't even close to such a government.

Edited by NeuralClone, 22 November 2011 - 06:07 AM.

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#28 BklnScott

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:32 AM

View PostNeuralClone, on 22 November 2011 - 06:06 AM, said:

View PostPalisades, on 20 November 2011 - 02:58 AM, said:

We are becoming a fascist police state.
We aren't even close to such a government.

He did say "becoming," and I agree with him.  (And when Palisades and I find ourselves in agreement on politics, people should sit up and take notice.  There's probably something to it.)  :devil:

Look, when we have police not just receiving but gleefully carrying out orders to shoot streams of pepper spray down the throats of children engaged in the most peaceful, venerated form of protest we have -- the sit-in -- then, yeah, it's time to be concerned about becoming a fascist police state.  

And bear in mind, this didn't just happen at UC Davis.  

Portland, pepper spray.  

Seattle, pepper spray,

Berkeley, batons.

Oakland, tear gas, batons, rubber bullets.

New York, pepper spray.

Denver, pepper spray.

There was a nationally coordinated effort this weekend to break the back of the Occupy movement.  (Well, the American Occupy movement.  We have to say that now, since it's gone global.)  

What would we say if this happened in another country?  What did we say when peaceful protesters were violently put down by the authorities in Egypt?  In Iran?  In Tunisia?  In China?  Et al.    

And, not incidentally, why isn't this HUGE news?  Why are our biggest news outlets still talking about Herman Cain's increasingly imbecilic gaffes?  About the latest Hollywood scandal?   Because our corporate overlords wouldn't want to perturb the sheeple.  For example, Fox News says pepper spray is "essentially a food product."  

Yeah?  So's mustard gas.  

BTW, the link below has videos and pictures to all the above-cited examples.  I tried to embed them all for dramatic effect but it was taking forever.  :)

http://www.theatlant...ctures/248761/#

Edited by BklnScott, 22 November 2011 - 12:35 PM.

Quote

There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#29 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 01:22 PM

View PostNeuralClone, on 22 November 2011 - 06:06 AM, said:

View PostLord of the Sword, on 21 November 2011 - 11:34 PM, said:

There are way too many cases of police corruption and abuse to list...the fact of the matter is that the police in America make Osama Bin laden, and Saddam Hussain, look like saints.
I've intentionally been refraining from posting in this thread for reasons I won't get into here but I had to comment on this statement right. The "police in America make Osama Bin laden, and Saddam Hussain [sic], look like saints." You can't be serious. I really hope that you were using hyperbole to try to make a point about how you feel about American police. If not, then we might as well add Bashar al-Assad to that list too. After all, he's butchering and torturing civilians in Syria and that's clearly on the same level as police brutality in America. (Yes, that's sarcasm in case anyone has any doubt about that statement.)

I'm not saying that what happened at UC Davis isn't awful or that it's justified in any way. It was excessive force given what happened. It's just nowhere near the level of the kinds of things that have been happening elsewhere in the world. I'm not trying to tell you what you can and can't say. But I thought it might help to try to keep things in perspective.

View PostPalisades, on 20 November 2011 - 02:58 AM, said:

We are becoming a fascist police state.
We aren't even close to such a government.


We're not close to such a government...We ARE such a government. We might not be as bad and brutal as some, but we ARE definately there.

I wouldn't say my comments are a form of hyperbole...I'll concede that comparing the police to Bin Laden and Saddam MIGHT have been going too far. However, the FACT of the matter is this...Police have a long and violent history when it comes to peaceful protests. During the civil rights movement Police used firehoses, attack dogs, batons, on peaceful marchers. They have since traded in their firehoses for pepper spray, and have upped their arsnel to include tazers, tear gas. They fracture the skulls of our vets, they spray pepper spray down our childrens throats....they shoot and kill homeowners, whose sole crime was sleeping in their house. They shoot people who comply with their orders, like they did with that airman.

And to rub salt in the wound...they don't go to jail for these crimes. What else would you call them, if not terrorists?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#30 NeuralClone

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 02:39 PM

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that we're either becoming or are a police state. I won't deny that there are aspects of our society that could be considered police state-like. The Patriot Act is and has been a rather alarming addition to our laws. Certain actions by the executive branch over the past 10 years have also been a bit worrisome and there are aspects of Homeland Security that could be considered to be a step in that direction. I don't consider police forces just enforcing the law (and not going overboard) to be a step in that direction. We have law enforcement to prevent anarchy and chaos. That's a good thing.

If people are breaking the law, as protestors have historically done (whether it's justified depends on the situation and one's perspective), then it's the job of law enforcement to enforce the law. Large groups of people chanting together or causing a public disturbance can quickly erupt into a riot situation. That doesn't mean it will but there's that possibility.

If that were to happen, and if the police weren't ready for it, then people would be wondering why the police didn't act sooner. It's a lose/lose situation for police officers dealing with protestors. If they do nothing and things get out of hand, people blame the police. If they step in to prevent what they perceive to be a threatening situation then they're criticized for doing that. There are smart ways to do that and there are dumb ways to do that. Campus police don't typically have the same level of training as city or state police. They may have panicked and overreacted to the situation. Either way, the way this situation was dealt with was dumb (to put it simply).

The situation with Occupy creates a nasty dilemma for law enforcement and it makes me divided. Camping out in public parks is against the law in most cities and states. There's a reason why there's a distinction between campgrounds and parks. A campground may be part of a park but a park isn't necessarily a campground. If people are asked to vacate the area because they've been there too long or are breaking park rules (which, by the way, are considered law for legal and enforcement purposes), and refuse, there's a problem. Obviously that can be a tactic used in a protest. But if people going to these protests don't realize there's a good chance they'll be arrested before going, then they're incredibly naive. Screaming "police state" when being arrested for actually breaking the law is just silly. It's pretty clear cut that you cannot camp out in public parks. If a single person were camping out in a park and the police arrested them, then it's a clear cut case. As soon as it becomes a "protest," the arrests suddenly evolve into a violation of rights. People have the right to protest, not break laws when it's convenient.

There's a time and a place for breaking the law as part of a protest. The Civil Rights Movement is an excellent historical example of that. If people feel this is one of those times, then that's their business and I say more power to them (I don't agree that this is anything like the Civil Rights Movement but that's irrelevant to my point). But it shouldn't be shocking that they may get arrested if they break the law or that police may start using riot gear to disperse crowds/protect themselves.

People seem to have a pretty loose definition of what constitutes a "police state." For clarification, this is what I consider to be a police state:

Quote

The term police state describes a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic and political life of the population. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.

The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Police_state

I hate using Wikipedia as a source but the first two paragraphs give a good summary.

That's my stance on this and I'm willing to clarify/discuss it further if people want me to. I'm not sure if there's really that much else for me to say, though. My stance is pretty straightforward on these things. I'm not against protesting or Occupy's right to protest. I have a problem with their strategy, tactics, and unfocused goals. And I have a problem when people do these things, conveniently ignore what the consequences may be (even when told point blank what may happen or why the tactics won't work), and then blame their choices on the actions of others. I can't support people that do that kind of thing. That may sound cold and heartless but it's how I feel. Accept responsibility for your own choices, make a clear argument, and I'll start listening. Doesn't mean I'll agree but I'll listen.

Edited by NeuralClone, 22 November 2011 - 02:41 PM.

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#31 Hambil

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 03:43 PM

NeuralClone, tell me then what you think of this, and how it relates to your op about police states:

75 years for video taping police

#32 Palisades

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:18 PM

http://dissenter.fir...inues-unabated/
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#33 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:47 PM

View PostPalisades, on 22 November 2011 - 05:18 PM, said:


That picture is PRICELESS!
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#34 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:58 PM

View PostNeuralClone, on 22 November 2011 - 02:39 PM, said:

If people are breaking the law, as protestors have historically done (whether it's justified depends on the situation and one's perspective), then it's the job of law enforcement to enforce the law. Large groups of people chanting together or causing a public disturbance can quickly erupt into a riot situation. That doesn't mean it will but there's that possibility.

Agreed that there is the possibility of rioting. Which is why if the police had used tear gas, I don't know if I would have such a problem with that. But Pepper spray is to be used to prevent an attacker from being able to attack. If your goal is to disburse a crowd...why would you assault them with a weapon that is designed to immobilize them?

Quote

The situation with Occupy creates a nasty dilemma for law enforcement and it makes me divided. Camping out in public parks is against the law in most cities and states. There's a reason why there's a distinction between campgrounds and parks. A campground may be part of a park but a park isn't necessarily a campground. If people are asked to vacate the area because they've been there too long or are breaking park rules (which, by the way, are considered law for legal and enforcement purposes), and refuse, there's a problem. Obviously that can be a tactic used in a protest. But if people going to these protests don't realize there's a good chance they'll be arrested before going, then they're incredibly naive. Screaming "police state" when being arrested for actually breaking the law is just silly. It's pretty clear cut that you cannot camp out in public parks. If a single person were camping out in a park and the police arrested them, then it's a clear cut case. As soon as it becomes a "protest," the arrests suddenly evolve into a violation of rights. People have the right to protest, not break laws when it's convenient.

There's a time and a place for breaking the law as part of a protest. The Civil Rights Movement is an excellent historical example of that. If people feel this is one of those times, then that's their business and I say more power to them (I don't agree that this is anything like the Civil Rights Movement but that's irrelevant to my point). But it shouldn't be shocking that they may get arrested if they break the law or that police may start using riot gear to disperse crowds/protect themselves.


It's called "civil disobediance" for a reason. It is essentially breaking the law in a non violent way. And if the cops had arrested them, that's one thing. But to walk up to a person, who isn't being violent, and to shoot them point blank in the face with pepper spray. To shoot it down their throats...If the protestors had done that to the cops, they'd be facing felony assault charges. Explain why this cop who sprayed them shouldn't be facing the same?

I don' think we disagree on how this specific case was handled, just on whether or not the police, in general, are out of control. I will concede that not ALL cops are out of control, but it certainly seems like a lot of them are.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#35 Hambil

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:32 PM

I believe it to be an unexpected evolution of the war on drugs. We equipped and trained them for war and made them fight a bloody drug war for 30 years, created a well train, well armed, extremely jaded police force. Add to that, the Department of Homeland Security and yes, I think things are, if not out of control, teetering on the edge.

Edited by Hambil, 22 November 2011 - 06:32 PM.


#36 NeuralClone

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 07:34 PM

Just popping back in here to say that I'm writing up a response but probably won't get around to finishing it until tomorrow. I also plan on checking out that video, Hambil. So, um, stay tuned. ;)
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#37 Cheile

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 08:45 PM

one of the victims, who was pregnant, has now miscarried thanks to this police brutality :angry:

and before anyone says pepper spray isn't brutality, they kicked her in the stomach too. and did both these things AFTER she yelled out she was pregnant and wanted out of the crowd.

story here

another of their victims....an 84-year-old woman?  likely someone's grandmother.  think how you would feel if your grandmother was pepper-sprayed for peacefully protesting.  

i hope you anti-Occupy lot are proud of yourselves. :sarcasm:

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#38 BklnScott

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 08:45 PM

View PostNeuralClone, on 22 November 2011 - 02:39 PM, said:

That's my stance on this and I'm willing to clarify/discuss it further if people want me to. I'm not sure if there's really that much else for me to say, though. My stance is pretty straightforward on these things. I'm not against protesting or Occupy's right to protest. I have a problem with their strategy, tactics, and unfocused goals. And I have a problem when people do these things, conveniently ignore what the consequences may be (even when told point blank what may happen or why the tactics won't work), and then blame their choices on the actions of others. I can't support people that do that kind of thing. That may sound cold and heartless but it's how I feel. Accept responsibility for your own choices, make a clear argument, and I'll start listening. Doesn't mean I'll agree but I'll listen.

This isn't about the quality of Occupy's argument or lack thereof.  This isn't about whether you agree with their politics or not.  People from across the political spectrum have come out to condemn what happened at UC Davis.  These kids were sitting in a courtyard, for heaven's sake.  They were not marching on parliament.

I don't care if I sit down in the middle of 34th Street and 6th Avenue at rush hour.  If all I'm doing is sitting then the response of the police had better not be to force open my mouth and empty a canister of pepper spray down my throat.  

Yes, I'm breaking the law by sitting down in the middle of traffic, and yes, as you say, I'd better be prepared to accept the consequences of that act but here's the part I think you're missing, and it's critical: the police need to be prepared to hold me responsible for that act, not some other one to be determined at their discretion regardless of what I may or may not have done.  

Cops don't get to treat a jaywalker like a mass murderer.  And if they do, then THEY are the criminals.  I (in my hypothetical) committed a minor misdemeanor -- A ticketing offense.  But by reacting the way they did, they've proved themselves to be dangerous felons.  With guns and badges.  I'm a minor nuisance but they're a serious threat to society and they don't deserve the benefit of your doubt.  

Here's another point it seems like you might be overlooking.  

What if they were just following orders?  

Then their bosses are dangerous felons with guns and badges, too.  Society needs to be protected from them, as well.  

And hey, since we're asking questions, let's ask this one: why did they give this particular order?  

Who masterminded this coordinated, nationwide effort to break the back of the Occupy movement?  

Was there Federal involvement?  

Because it seems like a foregone conclusion that at some point these disparate law enforcement organizations decided to stop responding individually and start acting in concert.  They decided enough was enough and it was time to get tough on these peevish parksquatters.  

But who crafted the policy they were all executing this weekend?

Someone must have, and I have a beef with that person.  We should all have a beef with that person.

Was it Janet Napolitano?

http://www.examiner....cement-agencies

http://www.sfbg.com/...cupy-crackdowns

In any case, I read somewhere today that guards at supermax prisons aren't permitted to deploy pepper spray against inmates who are passively resisting, i.e., refusing to get up off the floor.  Interesting, huh?

Can't do it to inmates convicted of violent crimes but CAN do it to University of California students.  

And by the way, though I was clearly breaking the law in my hypothetical above -- one cannot just sit down in the middle of traffic without breaking the law -- university students who assemble on the campus quad are not by any stretch of the imagination breaking the law.  Indeed, one might argue that they pay good money to be able to assemble there, (and that by using their brains to form opinions about things, they're doing exactly what the school is teaching them to do).  

On the other hand, were they violating some hastily issued edict designed to pave the way for a planned removal operation?  Probably so, yeah.  

But that's a very different thing.

At this point, I'm gonna go ahead and remind you what you posted from Wikipedia about the nature of a police state:

Quote

[In a] police state ... there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.

And with regard to your larger point:

Quote

I won't deny that there are aspects of our society that could be considered police state-like. The Patriot Act is and has been a rather alarming addition to our laws. Certain actions by the executive branch over the past 10 years have also been a bit worrisome and there are aspects of Homeland Security that could be considered to be a step in that direction.

"Aspects" of our society that "could be considered police state-like?"  

You can't be a little bit pregnant, dude.  

Again, I'll ask what I asked up-thread: how did we react when riot police deployed violence to quell peaceful protests in Tahrir Square or Tehran, and what makes it any different when it happens in Sacremento, Oakland, Denver, New York, Portland, Seattle, et al?

Edited by BklnScott, 22 November 2011 - 08:53 PM.

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#39 Hambil

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 09:26 PM

I sent Scott a PM apology for my knee-jerk reaction, but it occurred to me (I don't know what the policy is but) that if I do something I shouldn't have publicly, I should probably apologize publicly. Sorry Scott :)

#40 RobL

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 09:29 PM

Just another conservacon chip from the sides, but I gotta ask everybody here this: Has anyone participating in this discussion actually been sprayed with OC spray, or Tazered?

I've had both done to me, and would take the OC spray hands down. Just sayin.

Bring back Darthsikle!




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