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UC Davis Police Pepper-Spray Defenseless Students

Occupy Wall Street OWS 2011

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#41 Nonny

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:29 PM

View PostRobL, on 22 November 2011 - 09:29 PM, said:

Just another conservacon chip from the sides, but I gotta ask everybody here this: Has anyone participating in this discussion actually been sprayed with OC spray, or Tazered?

I've had both done to me, and would take the OC spray hands down. Just sayin.
Was it voluntarily?  When you were taking part in some kind of training?  And expected it?  

Ever had a chokehold put on you?
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#42 Nonny

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:38 PM

View PostCheile, on 22 November 2011 - 08:45 PM, said:

one of the victims, who was pregnant, has now miscarried thanks to this police brutality :angry:

and before anyone says pepper spray isn't brutality, they kicked her in the stomach too. and did both these things AFTER she yelled out she was pregnant and wanted out of the crowd.

story here

another of their victims....an 84-year-old woman?  likely someone's grandmother.  think how you would feel if your grandmother was pepper-sprayed for peacefully protesting.  

i hope you anti-Occupy lot are proud of yourselves. :sarcasm:
It sounds to me like she was targeted because she was pregnant.  Murdering b@st@rds.    :angry:
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#43 BklnScott

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:51 PM

View PostHambil, on 22 November 2011 - 09:26 PM, said:

I sent Scott a PM apology for my knee-jerk reaction, but it occurred to me (I don't know what the policy is but) that if I do something I shouldn't have publicly, I should probably apologize publicly. Sorry Scott :)

It's no problem, Hambil, as I said in my PM reply.  I'm not thin-skinned.  I do appreciate you reaching out, though.  Very menschy.

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#44 RobL

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:03 PM

View PostNonny, on 22 November 2011 - 10:29 PM, said:

View PostRobL, on 22 November 2011 - 09:29 PM, said:

Just another conservacon chip from the sides, but I gotta ask everybody here this: Has anyone participating in this discussion actually been sprayed with OC spray, or Tazered?

I've had both done to me, and would take the OC spray hands down. Just sayin.
Was it voluntarily?  When you were taking part in some kind of training?  And expected it?  

Ever had a chokehold put on you?

Without going too much into it, yes to everything, except when the choke hold was done it wasnt to a point of unconciousness......just enough to learn how to do it correctly and how effective it can be. And how bad if you dont ( If you bar arm, for example).

I remember getting lightheaded.......the taser HURT which is why I said it was the worst of em all.....

Bring back Darthsikle!


#45 Nonny

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 08:38 AM

View PostRobL, on 22 November 2011 - 11:03 PM, said:

View PostNonny, on 22 November 2011 - 10:29 PM, said:

View PostRobL, on 22 November 2011 - 09:29 PM, said:

Just another conservacon chip from the sides, but I gotta ask everybody here this: Has anyone participating in this discussion actually been sprayed with OC spray, or Tazered?

I've had both done to me, and would take the OC spray hands down. Just sayin.
Was it voluntarily?  When you were taking part in some kind of training?  And expected it?  

Ever had a chokehold put on you?

Without going too much into it, yes to everything, except when the choke hold was done it wasnt to a point of unconciousness......just enough to learn how to do it correctly and how effective it can be. And how bad if you dont ( If you bar arm, for example).

I remember getting lightheaded.......the taser HURT which is why I said it was the worst of em all.....
I OTOH was not participating in any kind of training back in 1984 when four cops knocked me to the ground and one put a chokehold on me.  Their reason?  Some jerk called the cops and made a malicious complaint.  

Because I am mentally disabled, the nazi wannabees got away with it.  

As to the "effectiveness" of it, I guess the plan must have been to make me hate cops.  It really worked.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#46 Palisades

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 09:24 AM

http://healthland.ti...?xid=gonewsedit

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How painful is getting pepper-sprayed? For starters, as Blum points out, police-grade pepper spray gets 5,300,000 Scoville heat units on the Scoville scale of pepper hotness. Compare that to 350,000 Scoville units for the habanero. (Pepper spray — or OC spray, as it's also known — contains the same compound that makes peppers hot, capsaicin, in a super-concentrated extract called oleoresin capsicum.) ...

Getting pepper-sprayed is worse than getting maced [PDF] — mace causes burning but no respiratory effects. Pepper spray can fell even people with a high tolerance for pain because it restricts the airway and leaves you gasping for breath. Even when pepper spray isn't inhaled, its effects on the skin and eyes can require hospital attention, causing intense burning pain, swelling, inflammation and redness.

Classified as a riot-control agent and banned for use in war by Article I.5 of the Chemical Weapons Convention, pepper spray is meant to be used against violent attackers who are resisting arrest and threatening physical harm to others. That doesn't apply to the passive protesters at U.C. Davis.

"Pepper spray should only be used when there's a clear threat to officers or severe-enough resistance — essentially, when the only alternative is more extreme force," John MacDonald, professor of criminology at the University of Pennsylvania, told our colleague Nick Carbone over at NewsFeed. "But if the only threat is time, then the best weapon to exercise is patience."

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#47 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:25 AM

View PostNonny, on 22 November 2011 - 10:38 PM, said:

View PostCheile, on 22 November 2011 - 08:45 PM, said:

one of the victims, who was pregnant, has now miscarried thanks to this police brutality :angry:

and before anyone says pepper spray isn't brutality, they kicked her in the stomach too. and did both these things AFTER she yelled out she was pregnant and wanted out of the crowd.

story here

another of their victims....an 84-year-old woman?  likely someone's grandmother.  think how you would feel if your grandmother was pepper-sprayed for peacefully protesting.  

i hope you anti-Occupy lot are proud of yourselves. :sarcasm:
It sounds to me like she was targeted because she was pregnant.  Murdering b@st@rds.    :angry:


And this surprises you, about the cops?

Now, having said that...I don't agree with the police gestapo tactics on the peaceful protestors. But the fact is that the cops are out of control, and using such tactics. It's not like this incident was the first. This woman had to have known that. The media has been covering what the cops have done to protestors for awhile now. So why would a pregnant woman, knowing that their is a chance the cops will get out of hand, go to the protest and risk her baby? The article said her parents were going to be supporting the child, and that she was homeless. Well, if that was the case, why wasn't she at her parents house? The bottom line is that she is also responsible for the death of her child. She put herself in harms way. The fact that harm happened shouldn't be a surprise.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#48 Tricia

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:49 AM

Not defending the cop either but since she was only 3 months and does not look to be showing much if at all in the pic accompanying the article...

Let's just put it this way...I've heard more than one case of someone about to be arrested and cuffed claiming pregnancy to try to avoid that. And when examined at the jail, they were not.  If the cop even heard her to begin with as I am sure that it was loud and chaotic there.

I'm sorry for her loss.   :(

Kicking someone, anyone in the stomach is not something that is acceptable to me no matter what, no matter the situation.

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#49 Hambil

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:10 AM

retracted

Edited by Hambil, 23 November 2011 - 11:33 AM.


#50 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:28 AM

Well they were definately expecting it.

They were postively screaming a "FUC!K THE POLICE!-FUC!K THE POLICE!-FUC!K THE POLICE!" chant.
Don't think MLK had that in his lexicon.
And insanely circled in the police who were outnumbered by about 1/10, who waited with patience for them to comply to disperse.  They were unequivocally taunting the police and for some bizarre reason attempting to prevent them from moving.
The police announced clearly and repeatedly that they would be pepper sprayed if they didn't, and the culprits shielded with their sweatshirts to get ready.
From the extended videos leading up to use of force, it seems they were gaming for a photo op 'brutality at 11' scenario.  And this is not a new strategy-OWS organizers have been shown in emails they want this to be a battle of images.
Further - this is not your father's Cally peaceful sit-in from the 60's when police are likely taking into account the OWS behavior so far and the previous Berkeley violence in '09 - chancellor's home attacked-broken windows, threats, incidiery devices thrown... http://www.nytimes.c...13berkeley.html  Shocking - it's Berkeley for heaven's sake.

Now that said, it appears the spray was layed on thick, but then again I'm not a law enforcement expert and it did appear the first row sprayed weren't even effected enough to unlink arms.
Other scenes from other cities of police wrestling and yanking resisters to move them seems just as forceful, even more so, with risk of injury to the officers. Incapacitating them before concussions and broken bones and skin seems like the better way to go *if* arrests and/or removal is warranted.
And that's the question - I know the occupiers were told to remove their tents - I don't get what happened next; why the police were surrounded if the tents had been cleared. Were they cleared? By whom?  It wasn't just the students sitting on the ground - there were hundred others angrily shouting and filming in a larger encircling mob.

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#51 Hambil

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:32 AM

I've done some research and please be careful spreading the 'pregnant woman lost her baby' further, until we have proof. I have retracted my post (or will as soon as I send this one, until I know more). My reason for this - the incident happened in Seattle, not UC Davis, and so far the woman has refused to provide medical records from Harborview where she was taken. Until she releases those records, Harborview can't comment, nor can the police. The fact that she is being flaky about releasing the records at the moment, has caused me to push pause on this and wait.

Edited by Hambil, 23 November 2011 - 11:35 AM.


#52 Nonny

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:38 AM

When she realized what was happening, she started screaming something to the effect of, I'm pregnant, let me out of here.  She was trying to leave when the cop kicked her in the stomach, and helpless when she was sprayed.  

I'd like to know if anyone else in that crowd was kicked in the stomach, especially by that cop, because I suspect that the cop targeted her with stomach kicking specifically because she was shouting that she was pregnant.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#53 Nonny

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:41 AM

View PostHambil, on 23 November 2011 - 11:32 AM, said:

I've done some research and please be careful spreading the 'pregnant woman lost her baby' further, until we have proof. I have retracted my post (or will as soon as I send this one, until I know more). My reason for this - the incident happened in Seattle, not UC Davis, and so far the woman has refused to provide medical records from Harborview where she was taken. Until she releases those records, Harborview can't comment, nor can the police. The fact that she is being flaky about releasing the records at the moment, has caused me to push pause on this and wait.
The link stated Seattle, but I'll hold off posting more about it pending confirmation.

Edited by Nonny, 23 November 2011 - 11:43 AM.

Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#54 BklnScott

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:44 AM

Apparently Officer Pike -- the stormtrooper gleefully spraying the kids at UC Davis -- is a vicious homophobe, too.  Color me unsurprised.

http://www.towleroad...-homophobe.html

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There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#55 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:16 PM

Sidebar - but that ridiculous piece on Tim Tebow on that site is outrageous; deliberately going out of their way to make all sorts of "offensive to the christian ear" connotations and ridiculing his wife with Tim n' Jesus fuc!kin' cracks.  Joy in being a braying jackass toward impossibly kind christians; I'll never cease being nauseous.

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#56 Hambil

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:19 PM

When your core belief includes "you are going to burn in hell", it's hard to feel the kindness. It feels much more like pity, and screw that.

#57 BklnScott

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:22 PM

Not to go off topic, but in addition to being filthy rich, Tim Tebow is himself a noted homophobe and a spokesperson for Southern Poverty Law Center certified hate group "Focus on the Family."  I'm not gonna shed too many tears for him.

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There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#58 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 05:28 PM

From -
http://www.verumserum.com/?p=34115

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Even More on that Pepper Spray Incident
John on November 23, 2011 at 10:15 am

"A tipster sent me this clip of the UC Davis pepper spray incident. In this one you can see that the officer later used pepper spray on the protesters went to each student and warned them individually that they would be subject to the use of force if they did not move:



We can still argue about whether the pepper spray was a smart move, but the edited version of the pepper spraying that has appeared on TV and which is circulating on the left omits that each and every protester was warned things were going to escalate to force if they refused to leave. Shouldn't that be part of the story? I think so."


Aha - and this one shows them chanting, after the Fuc!k the Police, "We will (or won't) let you leave - If ... something "let them go and we protest peacefully" I can't quite make out the 2nd part.
So clearly their stated intent is to box in the police and not let them leave until some demand is met.

Aha again - just read that they were trying to hold the police hostage there until they let students that had previously been arrested go.

So yeeea - you stop being non-violent when you do that.
Again, MLK would "not approve of your methods, Mr. Ness!"

Edited by Nittany Lioness, 23 November 2011 - 09:05 PM.

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#59 BklnScott

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 05:43 PM

I assumed they were told to leave.  Didn't we all?  

No one is complaining that they weren't warned.  We're complaining that they were subjected to brutally excessive force.  

Would you like to explain for us please how a warning mitigates the use of brutally excessive force?

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#60 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 05:49 PM

Because they were not just holding a sit-in - the unclipped down videos clearly shows a mob of people totally surround the police, angrily shouting Fuc!k the Police! and "we let you go IF -
That's threats.  
That's not non-violence.

Edited by Nittany Lioness, 23 November 2011 - 09:06 PM.

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