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Under-covered Bustamente Story...

California Cruz Bustamente 2003

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#21 Organian1

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 11:30 PM

I worked with mecha in student government at Los Angeles City College in the early '80's and now at UCSC as a performing arts group that works on our stage. What I can say from DIRECT CONTACT is this:

Imagine if we continued to occupy Iraq, make it a state, and then marginalize its people for 100 years or so. Then, say 'sorry, but now it's
all ok, right?' Will the Iraqis say, "it's ok?"

No, the people would not forgive and forget. Nor, should we expect them to. California was an invaded and occupied territory. Some people remember this. Does this mean we should revert ownership? No. Most of the Mecha members are second and third generation kids who have learned (all too well) American materialism and concepts of pride, arrogance, and ownership. They have become us all too well, and may eventually beat us at our own game by sheer numbers in time. Deal.

So, does this mean we should not vote for Bustamente? No. he's a politician who is all grown up, and knows that the childhood dream cannot happen; California cannot ever be Mexico again. Duh. He's not that dumb. Hopefully we're not so dumb as to think he's that dumb.

Issues of race in LA were hard core. I was voted from office in a state-wide student group to be replaced by a Mecha guy. He was all for the uprising of the modern Latinos. Then, we thought, it may happen. They were angry. We thought, 'what can we do to help stop this insanity... it's a matter of time.'

It didn't happen. These mecha folks were angry young people, but they have grown up, had kids, and discovered the bliss of making ends meet. Now, the Mecha's I deal with have Philipino, white, central american, etc, members. They are easy to deal with, and have lives to live that revolution would interrupt.

Besides, numbers predict that Mexican-Americans will be the majority soon. If there is true democracy, will we be willing to fight them if they vote for all Latino state government? Will we, as whites, be willing to become militant to keep California white? Won't that make us what we are afraid the Latino's now may be as a political group? The reality is coming soon, so I hope we have answers.

So far, no politician has even admitted that this may be an issue, but it will be. Maybe a Latino Governor would be an interesting step towards reality. As a politician,  Bustamente has an interesting opportunity to make statements and policy that could head off this storm. He has to be a politician, which means, even if he is a closet racist, and I doubt he is, then he still has to recon with the blacks, whites, yellows, reds, greens, etc. We're a bunch of M&M's here. That's our strength. I'm not afraid of it.

#22 Bad Wolf

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 11:41 PM

Organian1, on Aug 29 2003, 09:30 PM, said:

Imagine if we continued to occupy Iraq, make it a state, and then marginalize its people for 100 years or so. Then, say 'sorry, but now it's
all ok, right?' Will the Iraqis say, "it's ok?"

No, the people would not forgive and forget. Nor, should we expect them to.
And I don't.  However, when is enough enough?  Too many, no, ALL the groups of this sort I've encountered have given me the distinct impression that what they *really* want is a chance to turn the tables and engage in the same conduct they feel was wrongly inflicted on them.

And while I acknowledge that wanting revenge is human nature I do not condone it, particularly when it is promoted in the guise of advocating minority rights.

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#23 Uncle Sid

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 11:58 PM

Oh, the nationalism aspect doesn't escape me.  What escapes me is why anyone would want to be part of Mexico when they could be part of the US.  Sure, they'd be in with fellow Latinos, but look at Mexico's history in the past 100 years or more.  Not what I'd call overly blissful, certainly not overly prosperous.  Look at why these people's parents actually ended up in the US.  Mexico isn't the worst place to be but it's still at best a developing nation with a great deal of corruption and a very recent long-time one party system (the PRI still has a great deal of power, even now), not to mention it's own problems in dealing with it's own people.  Chiapas, anyone?  

As it's been said, there is a large and increasing Latino population in the southwest and Southern California.  The fact is that eventually, they will have a significant role in government anyway.  And that is just fine.  That would certainly bother me not in the slightest.  That's success and it didn't require silly people in black  berets shooting off AK-47s to do it.  That's the difference between the US and most places in Latin America, including to a lesser degree Mexico.  The worst thing that could happen to Latinos in the US is if these people actually got their way.
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#24 GiGi

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 12:03 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Aug 29 2003, 08:41 PM, said:

And I don't.  However, when is enough enough?  Too many, no, ALL the groups of this sort I've encountered have given me the distinct impression that what they *really* want is a chance to turn the tables and engage in the same conduct they feel was wrongly inflicted on them.

And while I acknowledge that wanting revenge is human nature I do not condone it, particularly when it is promoted in the guise of advocating minority rights.

Lil
Well, I am certainly not condoning it, and the extremists are way off the deep end in my opinion.  But what are we going to do?  Ignore it?  Think it isn't real?  Think Bustamente is the Anti-Christ?

No, revenge is not the answer, and only a few may even want that.  The Mexicans I have encountered lately have been very cool and very warm, real folks.  I may live in the unreality that is Santa Cruz, but believe me the scariness that is the Beach Flats is a stone's throw away so it is not totally rose colored glasses time either.

It is an issue that must be reckoned with and perhaps the time is now.

Having just seen West Side Story this summer, I would say that race hatrid between Latinos and non-Latinos is just as real as when that show was created.  And we will relive the story until we get it right.

Can we write a different ending?  Like the Klingons and  Kirk's crew in the "Day of the DOve" can we choose to put down the swords?
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#25 tennyson

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 01:30 AM

Another thing to mention is that like Texas, California was its own nation for a short period that then merged with the United States so while it didn't do anything to stop the revolutions that lead to California and Texas breaking away they were also not responsible for the choices of the people who controlled those nations so talking about Texas or California as something the US carved out of Mexico isn't anywhere near the whole story.
Even after the Mexican War there was land that was legimately purchased from what passed for the Mexican government at the time. The Gadsden(sp) Purchase was a signficant portion of Arizona and New Mexico and it was quite legimately purchased from Mexico in 1853 so asking for that land in partial back is no more logical than Cajuns asking for a homeland based on the Lousiana Purchase from France or other hispanics asking for a homeland out of the parts of Florida that were purchased from Spain. As it is this land became just as much a part of the US in terms of economy and integration as any other part, and even in the 1840s there was no "occupation" simply a frontier that people moved into and merged or not. Soldiers weren't as a general rule even in the area, and there weren't even enough people to have serious competition over rescources in most areas for another 60 odd years. Sure there was ethnic tension but this was also a time when a village could survive on its own, cattle drives pretty much took anyone and identity was a lot more fluid in some ways than now. From my own look at the historical record the kinds of problems of economic status and prejudgement that this group claims for grievences are more a product of the 20th century than something that cameout of the Mexican War so the claim of deep historical background for this takes away from the rationality of thier claims for better jobs and equal treatment. But as with many things a good slogan and a little emotion will take you farther than any more balanced reading of the historical record.
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#26 Norville

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 01:33 PM

I've been hearing stuff about Bustamante that causes me to withdraw support I'd had for him. I know who I may vote for, if he's still in the race when it comes time to vote, but I'm going to be superstitious and decide that discussing it will be bad luck...

Now, I've known about the Reconquista (Reconquest) for years, in which Mexico wants California back and the illegals have been trying to do that.

However, I also just read MEXIFORNIA: A STATE OF BECOMING by Victor Davis Hanson, a California farmer who's worked with Mexicans for much of his life and has compassion for them, but also sees the problems. He quoted what a Mexican told him: that he and his fellows don't want California to be Mexico; they want something better. And if they turn California into Mexico by refusing to make any effort to adapt to the US, then they'll flood into Oregon; if they Mexicanize Oregon, they'll flood into Washington; if they Mexicanize Washington, they'll invade Canada.

He makes another good point -- if we kick all the Mexicans out, California will disintegrate, because they do dirty jobs that you certainly won't get many native US citizens to lower themselves to do: deadly hard farm work, maintenance, etc.

I know I'll be accused of racism; pardon me if I reply "Bored now." My problem is that I remember California when it wasn't becoming a Third World nation; IMHO, it's only changed for the worse in my life, and no, it's *not all* the fault of illegal immigration. It's also partly the fault of rampant consumerism and corporate culture destroying any diversity between towns and making everything the same: crass and stupid. I'm just sick of all of it.

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I have wanted Northern California to succeed

Yes, I want it to succeed, too, as in have success. You mean "secede", though. ;)

Quote

from Southern California ever since I moved up here twenty five years ago. And for good reason!

I'm native to the San Francisco Bay Area. I *despise* Southern California. (Hollywood, yuck!) I see everyone trying to turn my area into Southern California, loads of palm trees included. No thanks. Please tell me, though -- in your opinion, is the SF Bay Area "Northern" enough for you, or would we have to be part of Southern CA? (I refuse! 35 years of considering myself part of Northern CA is good enough for me! ;) )
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#27 Rhea

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 01:38 PM

YAWN.

Bustamante belongs to the same generation I do (EEEEEEKKK!).

I know from frist-hand experience (no, I didn't belong, but know people that did)  that this particular group was, at least in the 70's, just another radical wannabe group that ended up more as a social club than anything else (like most student groups, who pretty much start out to change the world and end up hanging out drinking).

If he had belonged to some of the OTHER students groups in the 60's and 70's who actually DID something instead of jawing about it, I'd be worried.

Unlike, say, Ahnold, who actually smoked dope on camera, to the best of my knowledge Bustamante didn't commit a crime other than joining a wild-eyed student group. Plenty of people do that who grow up to be respectable middle-aged folks.

Sorry, but you'll have to do better than that for dirt. Frankly, if the only dirt anybody can find is Bustamante's 30-year-old membership in a radical student group, he must have lived a MUCH cleaner life than most of the candidates. Hell,we elected Reagan governor and he was a not-too-terribly-former John Bircher.

Edited by Rhea, 30 August 2003 - 01:43 PM.

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#28 HubcapDave

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 01:53 PM

I agree it's not really all that much in the way of dirt. However, when you relate it to the level of attention aimed at Ahnuld's dad being a Nazi Party member, I find Cruz's affiliation with that group to be much more relevant.

As for Ahnuld smoking dope and his sex exploits, if he was still engaging in those habits today, there'd be no way in hell I'd vote for him. But since he is not doing these things nowadays, they don't bother me. Heck, I smoked my share of weed when I was young, but I stopped when I was 16, and I haven't touched the stuff in almost 18 years. Does that mean I should forever be condemned for the fact that I once smoked weed?

#29 GiGi

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 08:21 PM

Norville, on Aug 30 2003, 10:33 AM, said:

Yes, I want it to succeed, too, as in have success. You mean "secede", though. ;)

Quote

from Southern California ever since I moved up here twenty five years ago. And for good reason!

I'm native to the San Francisco Bay Area. I *despise* Southern California. (Hollywood, yuck!) I see everyone trying to turn my area into Southern California, loads of palm trees included. No thanks. Please tell me, though -- in your opinion, is the SF Bay Area "Northern" enough for you, or would we have to be part of Southern CA? (I refuse! 35 years of considering myself part of Northern CA is good enough for me! ;) )
Very good points Norville!  (now I am so curious as to who you would vote for!)

I draw the line between north and south California at Cambria.  Any thing north of the San Luis county should be Northern California.

(hey I'm in Santa Cruz, I want to be in Northern California too!)
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#30 GiGi

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 08:27 PM

HubcapDave, on Aug 30 2003, 10:53 AM, said:

As for Ahnuld smoking dope and his sex exploits, if he was still engaging in those habits today, there'd be no way in hell I'd vote for him. But since he is not doing these things nowadays, they don't bother me.
Hmmm, I haven't seen anyone in this thread put Arnold down for indulging in that behavior.

I wouldn't.  I didn't condemn Clinton for it, and I wouldn't condemn Arnold.  But the problem is like Clinton, he is now not remembering this interview.

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Oh wow. Governor Gangbang? How far we've come, ahem, since young Mr. Clinton felt compelled to claim he never inhaled. 

FROM HERE

That denial may make this stick on him more than if he just acknowledged it.  But then again, acknowledging it would make the Republican support more shaky.

Edited by GiGi, 30 August 2003 - 08:32 PM.

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#31 MuseZack

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 08:41 PM

GiGi, on Aug 31 2003, 01:21 AM, said:

Norville, on Aug 30 2003, 10:33 AM, said:

Yes, I want it to succeed, too, as in have success. You mean "secede", though. ;)

Quote

from Southern California ever since I moved up here twenty five years ago. And for good reason!

I'm native to the San Francisco Bay Area. I *despise* Southern California. (Hollywood, yuck!) I see everyone trying to turn my area into Southern California, loads of palm trees included. No thanks. Please tell me, though -- in your opinion, is the SF Bay Area "Northern" enough for you, or would we have to be part of Southern CA? (I refuse! 35 years of considering myself part of Northern CA is good enough for me! ;) )
Very good points Norville!  (now I am so curious as to who you would vote for!)

I draw the line between north and south California at Cambria.  Any thing north of the San Luis county should be Northern California.

(hey I'm in Santa Cruz, I want to be in Northern California too!)
Actually, the Cambria-San Simeon region is a good place to draw the line, both culturally and biogeographically.  The ocean temperature goes up significantly right around there and the flora and fauna change as well.  It's also just south of where the redwoods peter out in Big Sur, and to me coast redwoods=Northern California.

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#32 GiGi

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 10:50 PM

MuseZack, on Aug 30 2003, 05:41 PM, said:

Actually, the Cambria-San Simeon region is a good place to draw the line, both culturally and biogeographically.  The ocean temperature goes up significantly right around there and the flora and fauna change as well.  It's also just south of where the redwoods peter out in Big Sur, and to me coast redwoods=Northern California.

Zack (Northern Californian transplanted to LA)
Organian1 thought so too, he had all the maps out showing me how the county lines almost bisect the state right there.

Gigi & Organian1 transplants from the LA area up to Northern California
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#33 Norville

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 10:02 PM

Quote

to me coast redwoods=Northern California.

Oh, yes, I love the redwoods. :wideeyed: Imagine (if you know the city I mean) if Mill Valley had nothing but freakin' palm trees -- wouldn't that be SO utterly wrong? (I love walking through Mill Valley, partly because of the redwoods. I love trees that make me dizzy when I look way up at them. ;) )

Part of the reason for my comments about the SF Bay Area is because, in past discussions of secession, those of the far north not only want to be a separate state, they want nothing to do with the Bay Area (SF, Marin, Berkeley, etc. should apparently form their own state), any more than I want anything to do with the ol' southland.
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#34 Belbo

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 06:53 AM

GiGi, on Aug 31 2003, 02:27 AM, said:

Oh wow. Governor Gangbang? How far we've come, ahem, since young Mr. Clinton felt compelled to claim he never inhaled. 
Not that far, unfortunately. Consider this extract, which seems to have been ignored in favour of the (entirely consensual) gang-bang one.  

Quote

On the practice of abstaining from sex prior to a competition, Schwarzenegger rejected that approach: "I get laid on purpose. I can't sleep before a competition and I'm up all night, anyway, so instead of staring at the ceiling I figure I might as well find somebody and ****." In fact, at the 1972 Mr. Olympia contest, "we had girls backstage giving head, then all of us went out and I won. It didn't bother me at all; in fact, I went out there feeling like King Kong," added Schwarzenegger.
Heh. I wonder what Arnie's position on the Starr investigation is? No wonder he didn't want to go through the Republican primaries!  :sarcasm:

(The link that Zack posted now has a facsimile of the original magazine page as well - it really does say "Kong" in the last sentence. Misprint, perhaps? :devil:).

Salon has a nice summary of the various "Conan the sleazebag" exposes doing the rounds - you'll need to watch some crappy commercial to read the full article, but the link is here if anyone's interested. Perhaps the most damning bit is this

Quote

But the notion of evolving standards hasn't seemed to bother Schwarzenegger much -- at least if a July 2003 article in Entertainment Weekly is any indication. As set forth there, Arnie's appetite for going over the top -- particularly where dissing women is concerned -- was even too much for the sensitive effetes who made Schwarzenegger's latest action-adventure blowout, "Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines":

... nothing in T3 bears Schwarzenegger's creative stamp more than his epic tussle with the Terminatrix, a battle that begins in a bathroom. The sequence was made longer and more elaborate thanks to the actor's largesse -- and his singular imagination.

"As we were rehearsing, I saw this toilet bowl," says Schwarzenegger, an impish smile crossing his face. "How many times do you get away with this -- to take a woman, grab her upside down, and bury her face in a toilet bowl? I wanted to have something floating in there," he adds. Apparently, he was vetoed. "They thought it was my typical 'Schwarzenegger overboard,'" he says. "The thing is, you can do it, because in the end, I didn't do it to a woman -- she's a machine! We could get away with it without being crucified by god-knows-what-group."
**

-- "The Running Man," Entertainment Weekly, July 11, 2003
** (emphasis mine) Uh, yeah. The rationale that saved a thousand hentai manga! And a few TV episodes too, IIRC.  :sarcasm:

Bleah. You can take the guy out of the meat market, but not the meat market out the guy, I guess. I think a woman should have the last word on this;

Quote

"Arnold Schwarzenegger's sexual stereotypes are beyond the pale," said Katherine Pillar, the Los Angeles-based executive vice president of Feminist Majority, a national women's organization working for women's rights and empowerment. "It's so appalling. He has shown a very disrespectful attitude about women, a lot of sexual stereotypes, and he clearly hasn't outgrown it. I think the women of California have to ask themselves: Would they want this man to be governor, and, frankly, can they trust him?"

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#35 FireStar

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 04:20 PM

Maybe the point is that they want Mexico to be part of California. California the last time I checked was in America?
So maybe they want the 2 nations to join and be one. Intreating thought that. It sure as heck solve the immigration issues.

The Lt.Govenors a man of his people. That not a bad thing. Someone needs to be there for them. Bridges built between the diffrent races are never easy. What many are forgeting is that mexico to is a nation of many races. They all get called hispanic. They to have their race issues. So noones perfect. Get over it already. Stop complaining because you are now facing what many have for decades. Accept it and move on. Be a good person. Show you can be trusted. Build a link in the bridge. It hurts to be excluded we all know that. However some ties take generations to build. There is a lot of hurt and pain on the sides of those conqured be they Mexican, African  or Native. Saying we are citizens or pretending we are equals will not cut it.
We to have to get past our own internal racism. Yes we have it. We may not admit it but it is there. It a human condition. However good people tey to go past it. I believe the Lt. Govenor and even Arnold are trying. It is the approach that differs. One wants to forget what was (Arnold) the other wants to accept it examine it and learn from it. Only by understanding the pain can we move past it. Own it and it has little effect. Pretending bad things never happened creates rage in the victums and their decendants. Natives of all races have 7 generation memories.

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#36 Rhea

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 06:00 PM

Belbo, on Sep 1 2003, 04:53 AM, said:

Quote

On the practice of abstaining from sex prior to a competition, Schwarzenegger rejected that approach: "I get laid on purpose. I can't sleep before a competition and I'm up all night, anyway, so instead of staring at the ceiling I figure I might as well find somebody and ****." In fact, at the 1972 Mr. Olympia contest, "we had girls backstage giving head, then all of us went out and I won. It didn't bother me at all; in fact, I went out there feeling like King Kong," added Schwarzenegger.
Can I just say "GAH!" and get it over with?  :eek:  :eek:
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#37 FireStar

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 09:31 PM

I have to agree. We all do stupid things when we are young. Most peope do grow out of it. Unless we ourselvesare perfect lets not be to jusgemental. The man was in California in the middle of the most sexually active age we ever had. In a positon where women were available. He a red blooded male. I not like to try to see how many could resist that. What everyone forgets is he was single. Not that I think this is a recomendation by any means but he hurt only himself. Cheapened only his own self worth. So let it go move on. I be a lot more concerned with his plans to repair the shattered economy. His views on immigration, Native issues and the enviorment. The what he did 25 years ago as a pro athlete. On these issues he failied to make a full disclosure. However it will be fun to watch you californians try to figure it out. I just wish it not effect the rest of us so much.

FireStar

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