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Libya was “an act of terror”? B-but you said...

Benghazi Attack Terrorism Obama 2012

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#21 Cait

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 05:49 PM

View Postscherzo, on 23 September 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:



And yet...I correctly predicted he'd be brought up to absolve 0bama of ANY wrongdoing.



{speaking as a member here]

You clearly indicated where you wanted the discussion to go in the OP, and it did.  You are the one that first mentioned Bush, and you are the one who issued the challenge.  I'd hardly call that a "prediction".

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#22 DWF

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 06:06 PM

The Marines should've had live ammo, but it's hard to blame the attack on Obama.
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#23 scherzo

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 06:06 PM

View PostCait, on 23 September 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

View Postscherzo, on 23 September 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

And yet...I correctly predicted he'd be brought up to absolve 0bama of ANY wrongdoing.



{speaking as a member here]

You clearly indicated where you wanted the discussion to go in the OP, and it did.
No I didn't.  A more careful reading would tell you where I hoped it wouldn't go however.

Quote

You are the one that first mentioned Bush, and you are the one who issued the challenge.  I'd hardly call that a "prediction".
And of course you're in a much better position to know what I meant than I am right?
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#24 Cait

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 06:26 PM

View Postscherzo, on 23 September 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

View PostCait, on 23 September 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

View Postscherzo, on 23 September 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

And yet...I correctly predicted he'd be brought up to absolve 0bama of ANY wrongdoing.



{speaking as a member here]

You clearly indicated where you wanted the discussion to go in the OP, and it did.
No I didn't.  A more careful reading would tell you where I hoped it wouldn't go however.

Sure, saying

Quote

(cue the Pavlovian attack on Bush in 3...2...1...)


..was really a hope that no one would mention or attack Bush.  I can see that now.


Quote

Quote

You are the one that first mentioned Bush, and you are the one who issued the challenge.  I'd hardly call that a "prediction".
And of course you're in a much better position to know what I meant than I am right?

I would never presume to tell you what you meant.  I only stated that I'd hardly call your remarks a prediction.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#25 scherzo

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 11:02 PM

View PostCait, on 23 September 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

View Postscherzo, on 23 September 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

View PostCait, on 23 September 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

View Postscherzo, on 23 September 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

And yet...I correctly predicted he'd be brought up to absolve 0bama of ANY wrongdoing.



{speaking as a member here]

You clearly indicated where you wanted the discussion to go in the OP, and it did.
No I didn't.  A more careful reading would tell you where I hoped it wouldn't go however.

Sure, saying

Quote

(cue the Pavlovian attack on Bush in 3...2...1...)


..was really a hope that no one would mention or attack Bush.  I can see that now.
Well a TRUE exercise in reverse psychology would have meant saying "now post something bad about Bush to absolve 0bama's fail". In this case I thought implying the predictable and wholly reflexive nature of such a response...would encourage more thoughtful and relevant excuses for 0bama's fail. All the Bush trashing would have occurred whether I'd mentioned his name or not, because the subject is 0bama's fail.

Virtually ALL criticism of 0bama is countered with variations on that theme, so it's not like I'm psychic or anything. Did I neglect to mention 0bama's fail? :(
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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#26 Cait

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 11:13 PM

View Postscherzo, on 23 September 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Virtually ALL criticism of 0bama is countered with variations on that theme, so it's not like I'm psychic or anything.

Whatever you say scherzo.  ALL criticisms are countered with variations of the theme, and no you are not psychic.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#27 Nonny

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:47 AM

View Postscherzo, on 23 September 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Quote

Meanwhile, the important part remains the murder of an ambassador and staff, and not the need of the President's political opponents to turn tragedy into opportunity.
:lol: Yeah let's pretend this administration's incompetence didn't contribute to their deaths...and ignore their embarrassing attempts to blame everyone and everything but themselves for the incident.

Good luck getting non-leftists to go along with the gag.


I did not make a big deal of this, but I lost a friend in that attack.  It is no gag to me, it is no gag to my non-leftist friend who leads our group, and it is no gag to our friends and members who span the political spectrum.

And now, finally, I'm going to go cry for my murdered friend and his colleagues.
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#28 Rhea

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:00 PM

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Nonny}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I'm so sorry about your friend (just in case I didn;t say so before). It's frustrating for people to be arguing generalities while your friend is being mourned and the issues are real to you and not some abstract argument.
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#29 Nonny

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:46 PM

Thanks, Rhea.  He was truly one of the good guys, and will be missed.

{{{{{{{Rhea}}}}}}}
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#30 scherzo

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostRhea, on 24 September 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Nonny}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I'm so sorry about your friend (just in case I didn;t say so before). It's frustrating for people to be arguing generalities while your friend is being mourned and the issues are real to you and not some abstract argument.
What exactly is "abstract" about a brutally murdered American ambassador, and the ongoing effort to deflect criticism for the enormous errors that left him vulnerable? I submit that serious attention to the foreign policy failures of this administration, is essentially to preserving the lives of future potential victims of our enemies. I resent the implication that my attention to this subject is cavalier or callous. Fact is, if I didn't give a damn about American lives, I'd completely ignore 0bama's moronic Middle East policy, and recommend further apologies to Islamic radicals.
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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#31 Lin731

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:07 PM

Quote

What exactly is "abstract" about a brutally murdered American ambassador, and the ongoing effort to deflect criticism for the enormous errors that left him vulnerable? I submit that serious attention to the foreign policy failures of this administration, is essentially to preserving the lives of future potential victims of our enemies. I resent the implication that my attention to this subject is cavalier or callous. Fact is, if I didn't give a damn about American lives, I'd completely ignore 0bama's moronic Middle East policy, and recommend further apologies to Islamic radicals.

Abstract as in that Nonny knew one of them personally, for her it's not a political policy push me/pull me as it is for folks on both sides of the aisle who argue during a Presidential election cycle about who is awesome, awful etc...
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#32 offworlder

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:32 PM

I sure would not expect Barack to be an expert in Middle East policy, but I don't see us as moronic in there either; and I sure would not expect any Republican president or candidate has been an expert with a wonderful middle east policy either; and I sure would never in a million years expect Mitt or anyone with his background to be better for it either; and apologize? I never saw Barack apologize to extremists or any other ones active against the United States; and I sure would never trust Mitt or any other Republican, what Ryan?! oh c'mon, running for it or veep to be prepared for things like Cairo or Tripoli either; and hey the right wingers friend Mubarek is out and the tyrants the Republicans trusted are on the wane and I don't see specific plans from them on how to make a better future for us over there either; I say McCain might be the best R for the foreign affairs stuff just from his experience, but I don't see him running or elected for it. And I do wonder if Barack is so incompetent with it all, just who, Mitt? Ryan? who is so competent for it all; yes I do remember what the overseas PMs said about impressions of US with ole Doubya; and I was in the forefront saying that all had to change. ............. The Mooslems overseas have problems with a lot of US presence over there, not with Barack; he is not the problem or issue; us all over there in their faces is the problem and the issue; and that is not a Dem vs. Rep thing, they all running for office just try to spin everyone that it is the thing.
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#33 scherzo

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 09:17 PM

View PostLin731, on 25 September 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Quote

What exactly is "abstract" about a brutally murdered American ambassador, and the ongoing effort to deflect criticism for the enormous errors that left him vulnerable? I submit that serious attention to the foreign policy failures of this administration, is essentially to preserving the lives of future potential victims of our enemies. I resent the implication that my attention to this subject is cavalier or callous. Fact is, if I didn't give a damn about American lives, I'd completely ignore 0bama's moronic Middle East policy, and recommend further apologies to Islamic radicals.

Abstract as in that Nonny knew one of them personally, for her it's not a political policy push me/pull me as it is for folks on both sides of the aisle who argue during a Presidential election cycle about who is awesome, awful etc...
I'd say her "politics" on this issue were made very clear, even before the revelation of personal tragedy. I operate from the premise that the vast majority of Americans are saddened by the deaths of fellow citizens overseas, and disgusted by the actions of Islamic terrorists. Which is why I reject the implication that anyone who doesn't personally KNOW one of the victims, is unable to grasp how "real" it all is.
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#34 scherzo

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 09:38 PM

Quote

The Mooslems overseas have problems with a lot of US presence over there, not with Barack; he is not the problem or issue; us all over there in their faces is the problem and the issue;
So America's the problem then.(although remarkably Barack has not contributed to the anger)

Nothing to do with religion at all in fact.

Can't argue with that.

Seriously...I can't argue with this.
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#35 Balderdash

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:09 AM

View Postscherzo, on 25 September 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

Quote

The Mooslems overseas have problems with a lot of US presence over there, not with Barack; he is not the problem or issue; us all over there in their faces is the problem and the issue;
So America's the problem then.(although remarkably Barack has not contributed to the anger)

Nothing to do with religion at all in fact.

Can't argue with that.

Seriously...I can't argue with this.

No where in the post you quoted was America blamed and pretending that we (the US) isn't a part of the problem is foolish, IMO.
And now I'll make a prediction, somehow you'll find fault with my opinion and find a way to ridicule me for it.

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#36 SparkyCola

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:41 AM

Quote

No where in the post you quoted was America blamed and pretending that we (the US) isn't a part of the problem is foolish, IMO.

I could understand people thinking the US has a responsibility if we were talking about Pakistan here, due to the drone attacks which are killing civilians and generating resentment.

However - I don't really see how the USA is to blame for Libya's actions here. Could you clarify that? I may be missing some relevant info.

I also don't get why Obama is to blame. It was a terrorist attack by a fringe group.

As for the role of Islam in all this: to me the religious dogma of the middle east is a symptom of a lack of education. Imo a good way forward for the Arab world would be to increase the level of literacy and eduaction - then there would be less reliance on religion, and people would be able to critically evaluate what they are being told.

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#37 Nonny

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:43 AM

View Postscherzo, on 25 September 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

View PostLin731, on 25 September 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Quote

What exactly is "abstract" about a brutally murdered American ambassador, and the ongoing effort to deflect criticism for the enormous errors that left him vulnerable? I submit that serious attention to the foreign policy failures of this administration, is essentially to preserving the lives of future potential victims of our enemies. I resent the implication that my attention to this subject is cavalier or callous. Fact is, if I didn't give a damn about American lives, I'd completely ignore 0bama's moronic Middle East policy, and recommend further apologies to Islamic radicals.

Abstract as in that Nonny knew one of them personally, for her it's not a political policy push me/pull me as it is for folks on both sides of the aisle who argue during a Presidential election cycle about who is awesome, awful etc...
I'd say her "politics" on this issue were made very clear, even before the revelation of personal tragedy. I operate from the premise that the vast majority of Americans are saddened by the deaths of fellow citizens overseas, and disgusted by the actions of Islamic terrorists. Which is why I reject the implication that anyone who doesn't personally KNOW one of the victims, is unable to grasp how "real" it all is.

No, I'd say clarification is needed.  Just what "politics" of mine are very clear, and how to they affect this issue?
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#38 Balderdash

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 08:40 AM

View PostSparkyCola, on 26 September 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

Quote

No where in the post you quoted was America blamed and pretending that we (the US) isn't a part of the problem is foolish, IMO.

I could understand people thinking the US has a responsibility if we were talking about Pakistan here, due to the drone attacks which are killing civilians and generating resentment.

However - I don't really see how the USA is to blame for Libya's actions here. Could you clarify that? I may be missing some relevant info.

I also don't get why Obama is to blame. It was a terrorist attack by a fringe group.

As for the role of Islam in all this: to me the religious dogma of the middle east is a symptom of a lack of education. Imo a good way forward for the Arab world would be to increase the level of literacy and eduaction - then there would be less reliance on religion, and people would be able to critically evaluate what they are being told.

Sparky

What I said was I didn't think that Offworlder was blaming the US he was just positing the standard US is to blame meme.  So, I'm not sure what the misunderstanding is.
A lot of countries, rightly or wrongly blame America for their troubles.  Sometimes we are at fault for some of it and other times we're a pretty safe way for people to complain, except when they start killing us.

There may be factions in Libya that blame America for something, I have no idea what that could be but it's not always clear why different countries hate us.  Hope that helps.

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#39 scherzo

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:39 AM

Quote

What I said was I didn't think that Offworlder was blaming the US he was just positing the standard US is to blame meme.
I'll admit I have enormous trouble understanding offworlder's posts. But his dropping of the classic blame America first argument seemed plain as day. If he meant exactly the opposite or something, maybe he'll say so. Until then I really don't see the point in pretending we're reading something that isn't there.
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#40 scherzo

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:43 AM

Quote

I could understand people thinking the US has a responsibility if we were talking about Pakistan here, due to the drone attacks which are killing civilians and generating resentment.
We're talking about people who will slaughter entire villages...if they suspect the proper religion isn't being practiced there.

I really wish sane people would stop looking for logic and reason in a strain of society that abhors such things. Last thing the world needs is civilized human beings giving ANY validity to absolute barbarism.
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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