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CA Governor, Signs Bill Banning Gay Conversion Therapy For Minors

California LGBT Jerry Brown

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#21 Mikoto

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:02 PM

Okay, if I've done this correctly I should have split the topic now. ;)
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#22 Nonny

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:23 PM

My second post remaining belongs in the other thread.
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#23 Nikcara

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:31 PM

Thank you Scott.  That was an excellent post, and better thought out and worded than I could do.
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#24 Mikoto

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:44 PM

View PostNonny, on 02 October 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

My second post remaining belongs in the other thread.

Sorry about that Nonny, I've fixed it now.
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#25 Nonny

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:13 PM

Thank you.  :)
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#26 scherzo

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:34 PM

I'm not going to comment on the specific anecdotal conversion horror stories posted here. There are of course, several tales of "success"(please note the "quote" marks if you're prone to blowing gaskets on this subject)out there as well that tell a different story, but I'd prefer to focus on the larger issue of diminishing freedoms. And the way children are routinely exploited to justify it.

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And that's what this is about: state-licensed healthcare professionals.  It's not about concerned parents taking their kid to the local pastor or whatever.  This is about licensed mental health professionals committing malpractice by promising something they cannot deliver.  It's about snake oil sold under color of state-issued licensure.  If there were no other compelling state interest here, that would be enough.  

If doctors were going around telling you to light a candle to cure your cancer, I think it's safe to say that most reasonable people of good will could get together and say, "yeah, you know what?  No.  There should be controls in place to prevent healthcare professionals from telling you that will work."  And indeed, there are.
Denying your child treatment for their cancer is essentially sentencing them to death. Seeking a professional conversion of their sexual orientation, while a gross violation of contemporary politically correct mores, isn't even in the same ballpark. While I'm personally skeptical of the likelihood of success, I find it nothing short of disturbing that Big Brother is stepping in to elminate parental choice in the matter.

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In the case of ex-gay conversion therapy, the APA found in 2007 that "efforts to produce change could be harmful, including depression and suicidal tendencies."  So not only does it not work, but the therapy itself is inherently harmful, sometimes fatally so, to those who are subjected to it.
A person who has been seeing a therapist commits suicide. Sooooo obviously the "therapy" contributed to the patient's death? I wonder how many practicing mental health specialists would support that conclusion, and the subsequent legislation that leap obligates in the minds of liberal statists? Last time I checked gay kids commit suicide at a rate 5 time higher than straight kids...conversion or no conversion. So let's change it up a bit...A GAYperson who has been seeing a therapist commits suicide. Obviously the "therapy" contributed to the patient's death? Maybe...but I'd have to abandon common sense altogether to just declare it so...then rage against anyone who disagrees.

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So why do they do it?  Seems safe to conclude that for both clinicians and parents, an ulterior, non-scientific motivation is at work here, and that it is most likely religious in nature.
Yup...they just hate gays. All discussions of this type eventually arrive at this conclusion. But it's odd that you eschew all other possibilities, while smearing the other side as "non-scientific". What could be less "scientific" than embracing a single possible explanation for a decision that could encompass several different factors? And frankly, the supposed innate-immutable nature of homosexuality is a complex scientific puzzle. But gay advocates tend to aggressively resist or reject, any data that does not support their desired conclusions. That would be EXTREMELY bad science, if it were science at all. But ultimately it's politics driving the boat here.
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#27 BklnScott

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:35 PM

View Postscherzo, on 02 October 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

I'm not going to comment on the specific anecdotal conversion horror stories posted here. There are of course, several tales of "success"(please note the "quote" marks if you're prone to blowing gaskets on this subject) out there as well that tell a different story

Fair enough.  No gasket blowing here.  Honest.  

That said, could you name a few?  Because as you say, there used to be a ton of them, but these days, they're thin on the ground.  One of the links that I provided in my last post was to a list of formerly prominent "ex-gays" who have recently acknowledged that their own orientations never changed (contra their earlier assertions).  Exodus International, the largest organization of ex-gay ministries with 270 individual chapters, now says that this "therapy" doesn't work and is harmful.  The president of the group, Alan Chambers, has said that "99.9%" of conversions fail -- including his own -- and apologized for the group's now-former slogan, "Change is Possible."

Rift forms in Movement as Belief in Gay "Cure" Is Renounced

I would respectfully submit that your read of this particular landscape is at least a couple or three years out of date.  The whole gay cure movement has collapsed and is attempting to rebrand itself as a 12-step, like AA.  You'll always be gay, but you can still live a holy, Christ-centered life if you never, ever, ever act on it.  (Some -- gasp! -- are even offering the heretical notion that you CAN act on it and if you live an otherwise good life, still go to heaven...  That's Chambers again.  He's had quite the awakening.)

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And that's what this is about: state-licensed healthcare professionals.  It's not about concerned parents taking their kid to the local pastor or whatever.  This is about licensed mental health professionals committing malpractice by promising something they cannot deliver.  It's about snake oil sold under color of state-issued licensure.  If there were no other compelling state interest here, that would be enough.  

If doctors were going around telling you to light a candle to cure your cancer, I think it's safe to say that most reasonable people of good will could get together and say, "yeah, you know what?  No.  There should be controls in place to prevent healthcare professionals from telling you that will work."  And indeed, there are.
Denying your child treatment for their cancer is essentially sentencing them to death. Seeking a professional conversion of their sexual orientation, while a gross violation of contemporary politically correct mores, isn't even in the same ballpark.

There's no such thing as a "professional conversion" of a gay person to a straight person.  Anyone offering you a "professional" conversion is deluded or lying, and if they are state licensed, there should be consequences.  That's the whole point.  

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While I'm personally skeptical of the likelihood of success,

Why would that be?  

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I find it nothing short of disturbing that Big Brother is stepping in to elminate parental choice in the matter.

Parental choice hasn't been eliminated, or even diminished, as Dev and others noted up-thread.  Parents are still free to teach their gay kid that being gay is wrong, and they are still free to avail themselves of a wide range of "resources" aimed at changing their kid's orientation, chief among them, religious counseling.  

What they cannot do is delude themselves into believing that conversion therapy is in any way consistent with the practice of psychology.  Because it's not.  This is how I know: because the largest professional association of psychologists in the world says so.  

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In the case of ex-gay conversion therapy, the APA found in 2007 that "efforts to produce change could be harmful, including depression and suicidal tendencies."  So not only does it not work, but the therapy itself is inherently harmful, sometimes fatally so, to those who are subjected to it.
A person who has been seeing a therapist commits suicide. Sooooo obviously the "therapy" contributed to the patient's death? I wonder how many practicing mental health specialists would support that conclusion,

Approximately 137,000.

That's the membership of the APA.  They are the ones who concluded that "efforts to produce change could be harmful, including depression and suicidal tendencies."  I just happen to agree with them.  And as I said above, so does the president of the largest ex-gay group in the world.  Better late than never, I suppose.

Is this really a debate worth having when the people on the other side of it have by and large acknowledged the wrongness of their prior claims and asked forgiveness?

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#28 Nikcara

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:12 PM

View Postscherzo, on 02 October 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:


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In the case of ex-gay conversion therapy, the APA found in 2007 that "efforts to produce change could be harmful, including depression and suicidal tendencies."  So not only does it not work, but the therapy itself is inherently harmful, sometimes fatally so, to those who are subjected to it.
A person who has been seeing a therapist commits suicide. Sooooo obviously the "therapy" contributed to the patient's death? I wonder how many practicing mental health specialists would support that conclusion, and the subsequent legislation that leap obligates in the minds of liberal statists? Last time I checked gay kids commit suicide at a rate 5 time higher than straight kids...conversion or no conversion. So let's change it up a bit...A GAYperson who has been seeing a therapist commits suicide. Obviously the "therapy" contributed to the patient's death? Maybe...but I'd have to abandon common sense altogether to just declare it so...then rage against anyone who disagrees.

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So why do they do it?  Seems safe to conclude that for both clinicians and parents, an ulterior, non-scientific motivation is at work here, and that it is most likely religious in nature.
Yup...they just hate gays. All discussions of this type eventually arrive at this conclusion. But it's odd that you eschew all other possibilities, while smearing the other side as "non-scientific". What could be less "scientific" than embracing a single possible explanation for a decision that could encompass several different factors? And frankly, the supposed innate-immutable nature of homosexuality is a complex scientific puzzle. But gay advocates tend to aggressively resist or reject, any data that does not support their desired conclusions. That would be EXTREMELY bad science, if it were science at all. But ultimately it's politics driving the boat here.

You're failing to look at the methodologies actually used in the studies that show gay conversion therapy is harmful.  Of course scientists know that LGBT people are more likely to be depressed and commit suicide.  They also note that in teens, kids who are perceived to be LGBT have the similar suicide and delinquency rates compared to actual LGBT students, so it's not like depression is something that's inherent to being gay.  
That said, if you want to read more about some of the science, here's a free article and here's another one.  They're a bit of a read, but they are quite a bit more thorough than you're making them out to be.  

Also, the physical abuse I mentioned before is a real thing.  I will admit that the studies talking about using electric shocks to the genitals was from an overview of conversion therapy from 1994, so it is a bit dated.  However, given how extreme some people can be when it comes to homosexuality, I can see people continuing to use it until it's outlawed.  While this isn't an example from the US, there was the Australian case in 2008 where a doctor prescribed chemical castration to a 18 year old boy who didn't want to be gay anymore...after talking with the patient about 10 minutes, and without telling his patient what the drug was, or what it did.  Yes, that doctor did have his license revoked eventually, but my point is that there are still people going to great extremes to end homosexuality and they don't care who they hurt in the process.  If you want some examples from the US about how awful we can still be to gay kids, this BS is still legal.
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#29 Bad Wolf

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:36 PM

View PostDev F, on 01 October 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

View PostQueenTiye, on 01 October 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

They banned exorcism?! Isn't that a violation of freedom of religion?
I don't think they did. The article is just using that as a historical example of gay conversion therapy. As I understand it, the bill is directed at California mental health providers, not religious institutions.

It's also not directed at parents, which is why this isn't really a parental rights issue. Californians are still free to teach their children anything they want about homosexuality; health care professionals just can't engage in unscientific quackery on their behalf anymore. And a state certainly has the right to demand sound scientific practices from the people it licenses to provide mental health services.

Thank you.

And since when does abuse have to be physical to be....abuse?
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#30 Balderdash

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:24 PM

View PostBad Wolf, on 03 October 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:



And since when does abuse have to be physical to be....abuse?

Darn good question!

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#31 sierraleone

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:58 PM

Apparently there is a lawsuit that has been brought up against this piece of legislation.

http://abcnews.go.co...84#.UG0HA45shSV

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A college student who claims he once had same-sex attractions but became heterosexual after conversion therapy has filed a lawsuit against California, which has enacted a law that bans so-called "gay cures" for minors.

The lawsuit alleges that the law banning the therapy intrudes on First Amendment protections of free speech, privacy and freedom of religion.

The student, Aaron Blitzer, who is studying to be a therapist in that field, said the law would prevent him from pursuing his career...
....
The other plaintiffs are ... a licensed family therapist and ordained minister... ; and ... a psychiatrist and practicing Roman Catholic.

Both say the law would restrict their counseling practices, according to the lawsuit.
...
"I read the lawsuit and, as a matter of fiction, it is a good read," Lieu [the bill's sponsor] said .... "But from any reasonable legal standard, the lawsuit is frivolous. Under the plaintiffs' argument, the First Amendment would shield therapists and psychiatrists from medical malpractice and psychological abuse claims simply because they use speech in practicing their medicine. That is a novel and frivolous view of the First Amendment."
...
The law's critics say that it infringes on the rights of families and therapists, particularly young people who have same-sex attractions as a result of being victims of sexual abuse.

Dacus said the law makes them "victims twice, as a result denying them counseling and healing."

He said that counseling in "direct violation" of religious or personal beliefs, "only precipitates greater confusion and depression and the likelihood of suicide."
...
"There is no psychiatrist who would engage and practice it and, if they did, they would be subject to ethical sanctions," he [Randal Hagar] said.

The American Psychiatric Association has outlawed conversion therapies for more than a decade, insisting they are harmful.
...
"There is no evidence it does what it purports to be. It is, in essence, fraud ... and there is other evidence that it does harm. It concerns us greatly."

The CPA [California Psychiatric Association] negotiated for months with legislators to hone language on the bill so that therapists could address "legitimate" talks on sexual orientation and gender identity issues, according to Hagar.

"We were wary of a form of the bill where they can't possibly engage in a discussion," said Hagar....

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#32 Rhea

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:20 PM

View Postoffworlder, on 30 September 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

> Still, [and here is where I share your concern scherzo], I don't like parental right's being eroded even further. I'm of the opinion that the state has encroached on parental right's to the point that parents no longer can have much control over their own families and their children.  Some parents may be ignorant and even abusive, but a law that outlaw the choices of ALL parents is not a baby step in my opinion.  It's a giant step, and not for the good.  

I'm still outraged at the idea of minors being able to get an abortion without parental notification.  I understand the reasoning  that some parents are abusive   SOME parents are.  But to pass a law for ALL parents is just beyond the pale.  Every teenager is going to claim their parents are going to be upset at an abortion.  Why?  Because they are parents.
<
I too hate the eroding- I am incensed that if some neighbor goes pick up a phone complains, child protective can come out with a deputy and take your kids; and the doing is so so way much faster than the PROcess, almighty system and court process!, all hail the process!- to get the kids back.
Alright, /quitemode , we do have to leave most things up to parents, but what if the parents really do, oh my get a sherriff, mistreat the children: take them to such quakery 'ungay my kid now!' course treatment?? we do have to protect the kdis, 'Kids are people too', even when leaving most things to parents; so it is a Sticky Wicket

I don't know what state you live in but in California (having working in the public school system where you risk a lawsuit every time you report a parent to CPS, people still do the right and legal thing and report children who constantly come to school with bruises (and worse in the case of small children) and it still takes FOREVER to have a child taken away from an abusive parent (additional not all foster parents are sunshine and lollipops, although I've met some fabulous ones - and the two best foster parents I ever met were gay).

I had one parent who we met when she came in to enroll her Down's System preschooler one summer and left her three other kids in the car in 100 degree+ weather. It took us several months to teach the Down's Syndrome girl to say something besides "f*ck you, bitch!. When CPS finally went out there, the only furniture in the house was a few matresses; the 10-year-old was taking care of his younger siblings, and it's lucky they didn't starve to death. Mom was a junkie who couldn't take care of or feed her kids but always had money for a fix and her weekly manicure. Some of what you see makes you want to vomit.

Child Protective Services are damned if they do and damned if they don't. But if they save even one abused child it will have been worth it.

Edited by Rhea, 03 October 2012 - 11:23 PM.

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#33 scherzo

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:58 PM

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A college student who claims he once had same-sex attractions but became heterosexual after conversion therapy...
I bet there's a small army of people confident they can "correct"(with absolute authority)this guy's account of his OWN experience.

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And since when does abuse have to be physical to be....abuse?
No one said it did. The issue was government intervention, and where the boundaries are drawn by the few of us who still value their freedom. Since "mental" abuse can be notoriously subjective, and can't possibly be proven in this case...Big Brother is once again overstepping IMO.
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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#34 BklnScott

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 01:42 PM

BTW, the BACP (British Association for Counseling and Psychotherapy) has now told its 30,000 members they can't engage in  conversion therapy, either.

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#35 BklnScott

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:16 AM

http://www.startribu...01.html?refer=y

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An Isanti County pastor who participated in a ministry devoted to helping people put their homosexuality behind them has been charged with sexually assaulting two men he was counseling.

Lakeside Christian Church's senior pastor, the Rev. Ryan J. Muehlhauser, 55, of Cambridge, appeared in court Tuesday on eight felony counts of fourth-degree criminal sexual conduct and remains free pending another hearing next month.

Muehlhauser also was a counselor through Robbinsdale-based Outpost Ministries, whose website says it was founded more than 30 years ago to help men and women "break away from gay life" and declares that "all homosexual behavior is sin."

More "professional" conversion therapy.  

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#36 Bobby

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:02 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 09 November 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

http://www.startribu...01.html?refer=y

Quote

An Isanti County pastor who participated in a ministry devoted to helping people put their homosexuality behind them has been charged with sexually assaulting two men he was counseling.

Lakeside Christian Church's senior pastor, the Rev. Ryan J. Muehlhauser, 55, of Cambridge, appeared in court Tuesday on eight felony counts of fourth-degree criminal sexual conduct and remains free pending another hearing next month.
Muehlhauser also was a counselor through Robbinsdale-based Outpost Ministries, whose website says it was founded more than 30 years ago to help men and women "break away from gay life" and declares that "all homosexual behavior is sin."

More "professional" conversion therapy.  

Maybe the sexual assault was supposed to traumatize them so they'd be put off men?  No?

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One of the men told investigators that Muehlhauser "blessed" him by cupping his genitals outside of his clothing several times and that Muehlhauser asked the man to masturbate in front of him for "spiritual strength." Muehlhauser would also fondle the man at times. Their encounters occurred over a period of nearly two years.

Spiritual Strength?  WTF? Umm, wouldn't that involve spilling your seed?   Committing one sin while curing another?

#37 Balderdash

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:15 PM

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One of the men told investigators that Muehlhauser "blessed" him by cupping his genitals outside of his clothing several times and that Muehlhauser asked the man to masturbate in front of him for "spiritual strength." Muehlhauser would also fondle the man at times. Their encounters occurred over a period of nearly two years.

"Blessed him"  heh heh so that's what they're calling it these days.  Back in my day it was called groping.  I'd feel bad for the obvious closet case but he's not
just hurting himself.

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