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Arrow: Honor Thy Father

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#21 Christopher

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:20 PM

Again, the bodyguard's name is John Diggle. I believe his nickname is Digg, no S.

And Oliver doesn't need Laurel to identify his targets; that's what his father's book is for. Plus, Laurel is not a prosecutor. She works at a legal aid office called CNRI, and in this episode she was helping her client pursue a wrongful death lawsuit against the bad guy because he had been successful at eluding prosecution -- an effort which was rendered moot when Arrow got his recorded confession (which somehow magically was admissible in court).
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#22 QueenTiye

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:06 PM

There was a Digg-like character in the final few days of the Ollie I knew and loved :love: - the one who had gotten himself elected mayor of Star City.  He wasn't an "in the field" character - he was a body man who knew how to keep everyone else from getting close enough to snoop, and who could pitch in and fight in the legitimate world that Ollie inhabited, as needed.  So I suspect that Digg is the same guy.

Dinah and Green Arrow both served on the Justice League, so they weren't a "team-up" per se, but they were on the same team.  The fun part about their story is how desperately in love they were, and how often and persistently Ollie screwed it up.  But for that to work in THIS situation, we'd have to have the romance for a minute before we saw him screw it up, and the lead actor would have to be able to convincingly emote some sense of love for "Laurel" - so far he's managed only barely to look slightly angsty about having slept with her sister and subsequently losing her at sea.  Indeed - from the looks of it, he cares/cared more for the sister, and certainly the complication of her dying at sea makes his sense of loyalty lean more toward her than toward Laurel.  So, I'm just not won over yet.

And, it doesn't help at all that he sounds like a petulant rich brat instead of a menacing anti-hero.  The voice overs suck all by themselves, but they are all the worse for reminding me how much he ISN'T this guy:

Posted Image from (http://www.ign.com/t...-book-heroes/30)

or even this guy: Posted Image (from: http://superfriends....iki/Green_Arrow)

It may not be a solveable problem - MY Ollie (and Dinah, for that matter) have always been adults - not just arrived adults, but actual, lived a little, seen a lot, adults.  They're both a bit gruff, with tough as hide exteriors - and Ollie's womanizing wasn't actually a front - it was the real him (which was why he was always in trouble with Dinah).  So... this is probably going to be on my watch list, but I'm not sure I'm ever going to accept these people as Green Arrow and Black Canary, and I'm going to persist in allowing myself to think that calling Dinah "Laurel" and Green Arrow "Arrow" are ways to ensure that these characters are not confused for the grown-ups they are imitating.

QT

Edited by QueenTiye, 18 October 2012 - 08:36 PM.
added a couple of words for clarity...

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#23 Christopher

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:43 PM

I still think the reason they called it Arrow instead of Green Arrow was because the suits were afraid it would remind people of the unsuccessful Green Lantern and Green Hornet movies. Because that's the way network/studio suits think.
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#24 Cybersnark

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:37 PM

I understand the trepidation, but I think that, like Batman Begins, this is about showing the hero's metamorphosis into what we-the-fans would recognize. Ollie and Dinah/Laurel both are in untenable positions; I can see them learning from each other (Ollie becoming less of an obsessed vengeance-seeker and more of a generalist hero, and Laurel learning to bend the rules). I can imagine (perhaps as a season-ender) a potential big-bad managing to take down Ollie (temporarily) and Detective Lance (fatally), forcing Laurel to seek extra-legal recourse.

I don't know how they'd work in the sonic scream, though, unless they prove willing to introduce more sci-fi/fantasy elements (which I for one would be thrilled with --I'd love to see a deconstruction of the modern "gritty, grounded realism" fetish).

Hell, with as much geek fanservice as this show is promising (Deathstroke! Huntress!), I can see them gradually pulling a tonal shift.
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#25 Christopher

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:47 PM

^Worth noting that the Golden/Silver Age Black Canary, Dinah Drake Lance, had no sonic scream, but was simply a judo expert and master of disguise. The modern Black Canary has been without her Canary Cry at times as well. So it's not an indispensable part of the character.
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#26 DWF

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:11 PM

I'm under the impression that Oliver's skill enable him to wound but not kill, unless he has to. And as for the "other Green Arrow" that's clearly his mentor, there's still much about Oliver's stay on the island that we don't know about.
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#27 G-man

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 02:12 PM

View PostCybersnark, on 18 October 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

I understand the trepidation, but I think that, like Batman Begins, this is about showing the hero's metamorphosis into what we-the-fans would recognize. Ollie and Dinah/Laurel both are in untenable positions; I can see them learning from each other (Ollie becoming less of an obsessed vengeance-seeker and more of a generalist hero, and Laurel learning to bend the rules). I can imagine (perhaps as a season-ender) a potential big-bad managing to take down Ollie (temporarily) and Detective Lance (fatally), forcing Laurel to seek extra-legal recourse.

<snip>

Hell, with as much geek fanservice as this show is promising (Deathstroke! Huntress!), I can see them gradually pulling a tonal shift.

I don't know.  It seems to me that Det. Lance is kind of necessary in a J. Jonah Jameson kind of way.

He's not going to change his mind about Ollie, nor about the hooded archer guy -- and consequently, he is the one person that Ollie will not win over to his side.   What's more, he makes a wonderful obstacle to the Laurel-Ollie romance ... get rid of that, and you are left with no one with a personal stake (well, aside from Mom, maybe) in making Ollie's life difficult.

/s/

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Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
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#28 G-man

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 02:16 PM

View PostChristopher, on 18 October 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Again, the bodyguard's name is John Diggle. I believe his nickname is Digg, no S.

And Oliver doesn't need Laurel to identify his targets; that's what his father's book is for.
<snip>


Agreed.  But in the first two episodes, his targets were people that Laurel was currently pursuing through the courts.  My hope is that the writers will remember that, as opposed to falling into the habit of him hunting the same people who Laurel is battling.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#29 QueenTiye

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 04:24 PM

Now that I've seen the episode my overall impressions are largely reinforced - these two characters are not quite grown-up enough yet for their roles.  THis being the CW, that was probably always going to be the case, but I kinda wish this was more like Justin Hartley's Green Arrow, in that he was clearly NOT the same guy, nor trying to be.  THIS "Arrow" IS trying to be Green Arrow and its feeling slightly off to me.

Perhaps the number one sense of "offness" is the fact that this is really more drama and less graphic novel.  I find myself wanting a little more of the comic book feel - in this, Smallville in its later seasons, was pretty awesome.

Still - there were some nice touches - Ollie's relationship with Laurel seems a little more authentic, and his relationship with Digg is moving along as well - I think that's probably going to be my favorite part of the show.  Still not clear whats the deal with his buddy, or if the guy serves any purpose than to be a future foil in the romance between him and Laurel.

The huntdowns are, in fact, the least interesting part of the show, so I hope they get over this phase of things pretty early.  If they let him be, Ollie is a compelling character, deeply flawed, infinitely interesting, muddlingly good hearted.  Even this young version of him should get a chance to be all of that.

QT

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#30 Lambsilencer

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:22 AM

I think that they went with Laurel Lance instead of Dinah simply to have yet another female character with the initials "LL" after Lois Lane and Lana Lang - maybe also to loosely connect it to the Superman universe.

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#31 DWF

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:40 PM

There is no Superman or Speedy universe, it's all a part of the DC Comics universe. It's likely that Laurel on this series might not even become The Black Canary.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

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#32 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 03:23 PM

OK, I've seen the pilot and this episode...so far not really that impressed. I find myself watching more to find out what happened on the Island then any other reason. That back story, told through the flashbacks, is far more interesting then the present storylines, IMO.

First problem I have is: This green arrow kills. Which in and of itself isn't a deal breaker, but it's the ruthlessness in which Ollie broke the one kidnappers neck that bothered me.Second problem I'm having is they seem to be giving him super human jumping abilities, with no explanation for it. And the third problem I'm having is...only green eye liner make up for a mask? Seriously, are you freaking kidding me? Like nobody is going to recognize the lost billionaire's face that has been plastered all over the t.v...all because he is wearing eye-liner?

His whole logic behind not wanting to take a leadership role in his dad's company made NO SENSE. Crime fighting doesn't come cheap. It requires money, and given the type of specialized weapons he uses, lots and lots of it. And how is he going to just keep spending that kind of money with nobody noticing it?

What really bugs me is the fact that at numerous times, the villians have been about 50 feet away, opened up with machine guns that are on full auto...and not one round hits Ollie....can't begin to explain how much that irks me.

right now the only reason I'm watching is because it's on right before supernatural. Well that, and I'm curious about what happened to him on the island.

Edited by Lord of the Sword, 24 October 2012 - 03:24 PM.

"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#33 QueenTiye

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:25 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 24 October 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

OK, I've seen the pilot and this episode...so far not really that impressed. I find myself watching more to find out what happened on the Island then any other reason. That back story, told through the flashbacks, is far more interesting then the present storylines, IMO.

First problem I have is: This green arrow kills.
Comic book Green Arrow didn't kill, but he was typically not really too on-board with the goody-two-shoes approach of the Justice League - he has, at times, been associated with "The Outsiders" for example.  Green Arrow was NOT a "color-inside-the-lines" kinda guy.

Quote

Second problem I'm having is they seem to be giving him super human jumping abilities, with no explanation for it.
  I haven't seen anything "superhuman" about his jumping abilities, although I could have missed something.  Others have mentioned his "parkour" style, which actually gives his motion a more "natural" feel.

Quote

And the third problem I'm having is...only green eye liner make up for a mask? Seriously, are you freaking kidding me? Like nobody is going to recognize the lost billionaire's face that has been plastered all over the t.v...all because he is wearing eye-liner?

Well - but since when have the masks on DC Superheros EVER been adequate to obscure their identity?  Superman doesn't even wear one!  So - this isn't a dealbreaker to me. And, it isn't eyeliner, or at least it wasn't when I saw it - it was warpaint covering the same area as the traditional mask.  So I actually liked that a lot - it's way more practical to have warpaint than a tie behind the head mask!

Quote

His whole logic behind not wanting to take a leadership role in his dad's company made NO SENSE. Crime fighting doesn't come cheap. It requires money, and given the type of specialized weapons he uses, lots and lots of it. And how is he going to just keep spending that kind of money with nobody noticing it?

Again, referencing comics Green Arrow, here was a guy who actually spent himself broke in at least one scenario - because he was so disillusioned by how his family wealth was acquired.  His cover for overspending is... that he's a reckless spoiled brat.

Quote

What really bugs me is the fact that at numerous times, the villians have been about 50 feet away, opened up with machine guns that are on full auto...and not one round hits Ollie....can't begin to explain how much that irks me.

OK - on THIS we agree!  It doesn't bother me really, since that's just the way these shows go - but it does bug me in the sense of being SO obvious.

I agree that the backstory is way more interesting at present, but I think there's real potential, and if I can get past their relative youth, it might make for a very compelling series.

QT

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#34 NeuralClone

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 05:53 PM

Ollie doesn't typically kill on this show. The only instance I can think of so far where he intentionally killed was in the warehouse in the first episode, and that was only out of necessity to protect his secret/identity. In other cases he incapacitates and intimidates. He tries to avoid killing since he isn't a killer. His methods are certainly more directly threatening than Batman, for example, but he still isn't a killer. In fact, (minor spoilers for tonight's episode)
Spoiler
Oliver wants to bring his targets to justice. He doesn't want to kill them. If he wanted to kill them, he could easily do so without setting up the police with confessions, etc.

He hasn't done any superhuman jumping. So I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to, LotS. He has done parkour, however. And that is humanly possible. It just tends to look superhuman since most people aren't physically capable of doing those kinds of moves.
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#35 Christopher

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 06:23 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 24 October 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

First problem I have is: This green arrow kills. Which in and of itself isn't a deal breaker, but it's the ruthlessness in which Ollie broke the one kidnappers neck that bothered me.

It clearly bothered him too, and while the show hasn't been clear about it, he has tried to avoid killing since then. The whole reason he adopted the disguise was so he wouldn't have to kill to protect his identity.

Quote

And the third problem I'm having is...only green eye liner make up for a mask? Seriously, are you freaking kidding me? Like nobody is going to recognize the lost billionaire's face that has been plastered all over the t.v...all because he is wearing eye-liner?

Because he operates in darkness and wears a hood, so people don't get a clear look at his face to begin with.

Anyway, it makes more sense than the comics version, where both Ollie and Green Arrow have the exact same distinctive blond goatee.


Quote

His whole logic behind not wanting to take a leadership role in his dad's company made NO SENSE. Crime fighting doesn't come cheap. It requires money, and given the type of specialized weapons he uses, lots and lots of it. And how is he going to just keep spending that kind of money with nobody noticing it?

Actually it makes a lot of sense. He doesn't have to run the company to be rich; he's rich because he's part of the Queen family. But actively running a company takes up a lot of time and requires a lot of publicity. That's why Nolan's Bruce Wayne lets Lucius Fox run Wayne Enterprises -- he simply wouldn't have the time or opportunity to be Batman if he had to run the business day-to-day, or vice-versa.


Quote

What really bugs me is the fact that at numerous times, the villians have been about 50 feet away, opened up with machine guns that are on full auto...and not one round hits Ollie....can't begin to explain how much that irks me.

That's not implausible at all. What a lot of people don't understand about automatic weapons, and what the media tend to misrepresent, is that they're not meant for precision fire. You can't really aim when bullets are spraying all over with such speed and the gun is recoiling with every shot, so automatic weapons are intrinsically inaccurate. The only way to use them with any accuracy is with short bursts, to minimize the amount by which the recoil of multiple shots will progressively worsen your aim. Just firing continuous sprays of bullets like TV/movie characters usually do is basically just noise and flash; it's a terrible approach if your goal is actually to hit a specific target. The main use for continuous firing is to serve as suppression fire, to force the enemy to take cover. It's entirely possible to spray an area with automatic fire until your clip runs out (which takes about 2 seconds in real life) and not hit anything in particular. It may seem paradoxical that the odds of being hit are lower when there are more bullets flying around, but the key is that they're flying around more randomly. Even at just 50 feet away, a 6-foot person is going to subtend less than 7 degrees of your field of view vertically and less than 2 degrees horizontally, which isn't that big a target.
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#36 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:32 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on 24 October 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:



Well - but since when have the masks on DC Superheros EVER been adequate to obscure their identity?  Superman doesn't even wear one!  So - this isn't a dealbreaker to me. And, it isn't eyeliner, or at least it wasn't when I saw it - it was warpaint covering the same area as the traditional mask.  So I actually liked that a lot - it's way more practical to have warpaint than a tie behind the head mask!


QT

very good point.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson



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