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Does anyone know if this is true? 48 businesses announce major layoffs

2012 post election layoffs Affordable Care Act Stock Market fiscal cliff Commerce

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#41 Cait

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

View PostKota, on 17 November 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

So don't be getting all pissed off at him because you failed to click on my link and went directly to where you could get into a pissing match.

tisk, tisk, hostile much?



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I didn't write the article stating the jobs were lost due to the election, but the common theme is that jobs were lost during the Obama administration. He inherited a mess and made it worst, companies that were all ready in trouble no doubt had it tough for numerous reasons and people lost jobs on Obama's watch. And with Obamacare coming in the near future, many companies know they don't stand a chance in the new world created by Obama and are dumping employees, cutting wages now in preparation of it. Companies are in business to make a profit and if they are not, why bother? But to call them greedy assholes, its easy to make a silly blanket statement such at that.

All hail to the Capitalist Master, right?!

Since we all know how completely honest and non-manipulative big business is [or even middle size business . I mean they would never lay off people, claim it was because of Obamacare just to piss off workers.  Nah, they would only tell the absolute truth about why they are laying people off.  They can be trusted.  I mean I'd never think they might be gearing up for the mid-terms already by putting workers behind the 8-ball just to get votes down the line.  Not me.

You all can be extorted by business to do their bidding if you like, but as for myself  any business that wants to make a political point by firing people is beneath contempt.  Scaring the work force into compliance is tyranny.  If the government were doing this the cry from the right would never end, yet you on the right will gladly let business extort the working class.

And, I don't give a rats ass if businesses do have increased costs because of ObamaCare, so don't even think about coming at me for the poor poor businesses that will have to reduce their profits by a penny on the dollar to help workers with healthcare.  The very workers that create their wealth.  Give me a break with this nonsense.  There was an election and business doesn't like the outcome, so they are punishing the work force and blaming Obama.

Nice try.  You can all enjoy your Corporatocracy. Let the business class manipulate the economy and the work force into doing as they bid.   Me, I'd like to keep the government in the people's hands for the time being.  This same thing happened on Wall Street after the election in 08. Scare all the investors into submission, and then turn right around and have the best recovery in the nation's history.

People should remember the lengths business went to to stop the Labor movement and see this for the manipulation it really is--extortion.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#42 Kota

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:36 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 17 November 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

With apologies to Mandy Patinkin and William Goldman: I do not think this link proves what you think it proves, Kota.

Quote

The uncertainty surrounding the future of the Obama health care package is creating turmoil in the domestic market, Meyer said.


The article was published in September, so presumably the "uncertainty surrounding the future of the Obama healthcare package" that created "turmoil in the market" was settled by the election -- not caused by it.  

Sure feel free to presume but the industry is showing turmoil by making job cuts.

#43 Kota

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:37 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 17 November 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

^^^Those layoffs were a) nearly 2 years ago and b) were really about the state of Abbott's pipeline (poor) as it approaches a 2016 patent cliff on its blockbuster drug Humira.  As indicated by your article:

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Abbott has steadily increased its revenue year after year, even as most of its pharmaceutical peers have watched sales fall as patents on blockbuster drugs expire. And while the company’s multibillion dollar, anti-inflammatory drug Humira continued to deliver in the latest quarter, Abbott has stumbled in efforts to develop new therapies.


2016 will be a huge "patent cliff" year for the industry -- not just for Abbott, but for Pfizer and other companies as well.  Some are better situated than others to weather their top earners going off-patent.  The judgment of Wall Street at the moment is that Abbott is not particularly well situated, but that's not about Obamacare.  It's about their pipeline.  

Or do you want to argue that the FDA puts undue regulatory burden on Pharma to make sure their new drug development process produces SAFE and EFFICACIOUS products?

Try again.

Jobs losses under Obama watch...tsk tsk

#44 BklnScott

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:52 PM

Um, ok then.

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#45 Balthamos

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:54 PM

I've noticed that failure to analyze the information thing in a few posters before. I think Nittany Lioness was particularly good at it before she was banned.

#46 Orpheus

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:07 PM

View PostDarthMarley, on 16 November 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

The claim that Obamacare is not costing jobs is an outright lie, and since the days of saying anything and getting away with it are supposed to be over, I will directly call anyone who makes the claim that PP/ACA is not causing workfiorce reductions a liar. If people are not willing to be reasonable, then politeness can go out the window too.

Just so no one gets themselves in trouble: that's not how it works here.

Facts are on the table and open for debate in OT. The requirement for a modicum of civility is not.

I'm proud that we all clearly get that, in practice. I just don't want to see anyone reading staff silence as consent to the above.

That's just a policy clarification. No GLs were harmed in making the above quote. Good show! Carry on!

#47 Nonny

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:04 AM

http://thinkprogress...tesss-downfall/
Hostess Blames Union For Bankruptcy After Tripling CEO’s Pay

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Today, Hostess Brands inc. — the company famed for its sickly sweet desert snacks like Twinkies and Sno Balls — announced they’d be shuttering after more than eighty years of production.
But while headlines have been quick to blame unions for the downfall of the company there’s actually more to the story: While the company was filing for bankruptcy, for the second time, earlier this year, it actually tripled its CEO’s pay, and increased other executives’ compensation by as much as 80 percent....


I guess that CEO can use the Twinkie Defense to explain the lies.   :sarcasm:
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#48 Nonny

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:17 AM

http://www.sacbee.co...l#storylink=cpy
Hostess Continues Pattern Of Misinformation

Quote

BCTGM International Union President Frank Hurt stated, "The recent claim by Hostess CEO Greg Rayburn that our strike is the reason for the closure of the three bakeries is simply not true.  That statement is a continuation of a disturbing pattern by the company of issuing public statements that are erroneous at best and disingenuous at worst.
"Our members rejected the company's outrageous proposal by 92 percent in September. Rejection came from every corner of the country.  They were being asked to vote on a proposal with massive concessions, knowing that their plant could very well be one of those to be closed.
"Our members are on strike because they have had enough. They are not willing to take draconian wage and benefit cuts on top of the significant concessions they made in 2004 and give up their pension so that the Wall Street vulture capitalists in control of this company can walk away with millions of dollars."
Over the past eight years since the first Hostess bankruptcy, BCTGM members have watched as money from previous concessions that was supposed to go towards capital investment, product development, plant improvement and new equipment, was squandered in executive bonuses, payouts to Wall Street investors and payments to high-priced attorneys and consultants.
BCTGM members are well aware that as the company was preparing to file for bankruptcy earlier this year, the then CEO of Hostess was awarded a 300 percent raise (from approximately $750,000 to $2,550,000) and at least nine other top executives of the company received massive pay raises. One such executive received a pay increase from $500,000 to $900,000 and another received one taking his salary from $375,000 to $656,256.
Over the past 15 months, Hostess workers have seen the company unilaterally end contractually-obligated payments to their pension plan. Despite saving more than $160 million with this action, the company continues to fall deeper and deeper into debt.  A mountain of debt and gross mismanagement by a string of failed CEO's with no true experience in the wholesale baking business have left this company unable to compete or survive....

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#49 Balderdash

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:54 AM

^^^

That is what is wrong with this country, frickin' greedy bastards.   And yet someone will get on here and try to explain
away what are guts and our morals are telling us is evil.

Edited to add that it's absurd to blame President Obama for companies that go under due to greedy CEO's and executive
mismanagement.  I don't understand how the bonus situation works.  Whenever I've had a job that offered bonuses we
had to earn them.  If we say, bankrupted our company that would be bad and we wouldn't get a bonus, we would get fired!

Edited by Balderdash, 18 November 2012 - 09:06 AM.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



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#50 Kota

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:07 AM

yep, greedy son of a guns

Greed is incredible among the many

http://www.unionfact...&_Grain_Millers

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Salaries of the union bosses

FRANK HURT PRESIDENT $262,654.00
DAVID DURKEE SECRETARY-TREASURER $244,396.00
JOSEPH THIBODEAU EXEC VICE PRESIDENT $218,989.00
STEVE BERTELLI VICE PRESIDENT $198,062.00
MICHAEL KONESKO VICE PRESIDENT $184,297.00
ARTHUR MONTMINY VICE PRESIDENT $175,505.00
ANTHONY JOHNSON VICE PRESIDENT $167,433.00
ROBERT OAKLEY VICE PRESIDENT $167,265.00
RANDY ROARK VICE PRESIDENT $166,849.00
SEAN KELLY VICE PRESIDENT $161,789.00




And lets not forget the small business owners, greedy people sheeesh!

#51 Nonny

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:02 PM

View PostKota, on 18 November 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

yep, greedy son of a guns

Greed is incredible among the many

http://www.unionfact...&_Grain_Millers

Quote

Salaries of the union bosses

FRANK HURT PRESIDENT $262,654.00
DAVID DURKEE SECRETARY-TREASURER $244,396.00
JOSEPH THIBODEAU EXEC VICE PRESIDENT $218,989.00
STEVE BERTELLI VICE PRESIDENT $198,062.00
MICHAEL KONESKO VICE PRESIDENT $184,297.00
ARTHUR MONTMINY VICE PRESIDENT $175,505.00
ANTHONY JOHNSON VICE PRESIDENT $167,433.00
ROBERT OAKLEY VICE PRESIDENT $167,265.00
RANDY ROARK VICE PRESIDENT $166,849.00
SEAN KELLY VICE PRESIDENT $161,789.00

Funny, but those "salaries" include "benefits and other compensation."  And where are the seven figures?  The high six"?  Mid six?  Take out the bennies, and the highest isn't much over $200,000.  I wonder what that CEO's total would be with his other compensation added.

As for the Center for Union Facts, it's just another union busting organization masquerading as a friend to workers.  Get Thee Behind Me, Satan!
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#52 Cait

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 01:19 PM

The struggle between business and labor isn't new.  In fact it's as old as humanity.  They are natural checks and balances for each other.  The Labor movement has as long a history as business, let's all try and remember that.  Each side blames the other because that's the nature of the balance.  Are there times when things tip in favor of one or the other?  Yes.  But one only has to look at history to understand that the pendulum will tilt the other way soon enough [well, unless the government is controlled by one or the other that is, and then you get a different kind of revolt].

The US has been on a Union Busting tear since Reagan, so yeah for the last few decades things have been tilted towards business and Labor has been vilified.  That doesn't mean unions are bad or evil, it only means things are out of balance right now.

As far as CEO's being payed high salaries and bonuses while companies fold and labor deals with stagnant wages, you know, the way things are right now, I suggest everyone look to history to see how that all turned out in the past.  I REALLY suggest that the GOP look at it, or sink even further into obscurity as a regional Party in the South, because all the redistricting in the world won't help you keep the House of Representatives if you keep up this line regarding labor.

Just sayin... anyone can take a look at history here......

http://en.wikipedia..../Labour_revolts

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#53 Nonny

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 01:50 PM

View PostCait, on 18 November 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

The struggle between business and labor isn't new.  In fact it's as old as humanity.  They are natural checks and balances for each other.

Yeah, like women taking over picketing duties back in the bad old days, since the women only got raped.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#54 offworlder

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 03:01 PM

so what's the bottom line here? after all the rises and bonuses because 'I cut costs with those concession cuts' on the annual reviews, the company cuts out, sells out, the shareholders and the execs get theirs, and the people get nothing, not even unemployment for any who were striking as the close came. You see? this is why in the capital free market world only the capitals and marketers survive; so you must live with your parents all through your twenties, save and invest 15 pct of all you make from day one, that means starting when you hit 22 not 32 or 38, cut your costs, don't pay full rent only half or 1/3, save and horde and build, so You too can own equity and be one of 'them'.
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#55 Lin731

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:51 PM

I think the Hostess company giving big, fat compensation bonuses to themselves (while filing for Bankrupsy) is a shining example of why I hold so many corporations in such low regard. They lack any morals, values or a speck of decency. That is also why this global market is such a crap sandwich for workers. There will always be some bottomfeeder wage country available and souless, scumbag corporations who would sell their grandma's for an extra grand in compensation for themselves. Look into the history of Kmart if you want to know about corporate ethics in this era. CEO after CEO raping the company while NOT producing anything but failure and walking way with a tidy comp package to show for their imcompetent management.
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#56 Orpheus

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:42 AM

While I really regret union excesses over past decades, because I believe that amoral corporate excesses are trending toward making worker protection as important now as 100 years ago [and likewise find executive mismanagement a quite plausible explanation for Hostess' problems in today's business environment], I'm really puzzled how this *specific* set of excesses could happen in the setting of an ongoing bankruptcy plan.

I trust that the source material [court documents, etc.] will soon be published somewhere on the web

#57 Julianus

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:38 AM

It does seem weird that the court would have approved a bankruptcy with the top executives giving themselves huge raises, though something like this happened with Solyndra.
http://www.foxnews.c...lyndra-bonuses/
In both cases it seems the bankruptcy laws give protection to executives to loot money that should go to creditors.

Another point in the Hostess case is that the Baker's union was the only union that had not settled with the company. Apparently the Teamsters got an acceptable deal. In any case their statement agrees with what I have heard from the Bakers, whose spokesman I heard on the radio agreed with the Teamsters about the mismanagement and added that the company's proposed plan to continuation under bankruptcy protection would have failed because the plan was inadequate in its savings' proposals. Given the proposed executive raises this is probably accurate.

Julianus

#58 Rhea

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:24 AM

I too followed a number of the links Darth cited.. Here's an example:

Quote

Almost half the job losses will come in Sweden, mainly in Huskvarna, where the company is based, it said. The cuts will be carried out during the first six months of next year after negotiations with unions. The cuts will cost about 250 million kronor to implement, which will be charged to fourth-quarter operating income, the company said.
Oh, yes - and their stock went up slightly.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Obama care, thought it makes nice propoganda. I read others at random, and none of the ones I read are due to Obamacare.

The supermarket that closed its doors was a small family-owned buiness that was likely hurt by megastores like Wal Mart.

So far as following the links to businesses hit by Obamacare, I couldn't find even one in the links I followed. Might as well attribute it to the recession, which makes more sense and has absolutely nothing to do with the health care bill.

Edited by Rhea, 20 November 2012 - 07:33 AM.

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#59 DarthMarley

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:33 AM

View PostOrpheus, on 17 November 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

View PostDarthMarley, on 16 November 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

The claim that Obamacare is not costing jobs is an outright lie, and since the days of saying anything and getting away with it are supposed to be over, I will directly call anyone who makes the claim that PP/ACA is not causing workfiorce reductions a liar. If people are not willing to be reasonable, then politeness can go out the window too.

Just so no one gets themselves in trouble: that's not how it works here.

Facts are on the table and open for debate in OT. The requirement for a modicum of civility is not.

I'm proud that we all clearly get that, in practice. I just don't want to see anyone reading staff silence as consent to the above.

That's just a policy clarification. No GLs were harmed in making the above quote. Good show! Carry on!

Some facts are beyond dispute or refutation.
A link to a company press release that spells out that indeed taxees raised under PP/ACA is resulting in "restructuring" that costs people their jobs means exactly that.

It would be "nice" if after reading that, no one would feel complelled to spin the claims, and insist that no jobs were lost due to this policy initiative when it has been demonstrated that it has done so.

At that point,all who have been exposed to the truth, and claim untruth as "FACT" are engaging in deception that is willful.
Civility should not apply to those who insist on making untrue claims.

When the "tone" from those doing the lying is "The days of just saying anything are over" then I am following that lead.
Funny where the lines end up getting drawn.

Of course government policies impact employment and layoffs.
Of course raising taxes leaves less money for investment and wages.
Of course people want to paint their pet policies as totally beneficial with no downside.
"It is not who is right, but what is right that is of importance."

#60 BklnScott

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:02 AM

View PostDarthMarley, on 20 November 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

View PostOrpheus, on 17 November 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

View PostDarthMarley, on 16 November 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

The claim that Obamacare is not costing jobs is an outright lie, and since the days of saying anything and getting away with it are supposed to be over, I will directly call anyone who makes the claim that PP/ACA is not causing workfiorce reductions a liar. If people are not willing to be reasonable, then politeness can go out the window too.

Just so no one gets themselves in trouble: that's not how it works here.

Facts are on the table and open for debate in OT. The requirement for a modicum of civility is not.

I'm proud that we all clearly get that, in practice. I just don't want to see anyone reading staff silence as consent to the above.

That's just a policy clarification. No GLs were harmed in making the above quote. Good show! Carry on!

Some facts are beyond dispute or refutation.

Agreed.

Quote

A link to a company press release that spells out that indeed taxees raised under PP/ACA is resulting in "restructuring" that costs people their jobs means exactly that.

No, a PRESS RELEASE from a company does not qualify as a fact, Darth.  It qualifies as an ASSERTION.  

Quote

It would be "nice" if after reading that, no one would feel complelled to spin the claims, and insist that no jobs were lost due to this policy initiative when it has been demonstrated that it has done so.

No, it has been ASSERTED.  Or, to use your word, CLAIMED.  No one should take at face value assertions typed up in a company's public relations department and stamped "FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE."  Any assertions.  Any company.  For any reason.  

A press release BY ITS NATURE is spin.  

A CEO of a failing corporation blames outside factors rather than internal mismanagement?  Who ever heard of such a thing?

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