15 replies to this topic

[Nonny]

http://www.huffingto..._n_2128696.html

Savita Halappanavar Denied Abortion, Dies From Blood Poisoning

Quote

DUBLIN — The debate over legalizing abortion in Ireland flared Wednesday after the government confirmed a miscarrying woman suffering from blood poisoning was refused a quick termination of her pregnancy and died in an Irish hospital.
Prime Minister Enda Kenny said he was awaiting findings from three investigations into the death of Savita Halappanavar, an Indian living in Galway since 2008 who was 17 weeks along in her pregnancy. The 31-year-old's case highlights the bizarre legal limbo in which pregnant women facing severe health problems in predominantly Catholic Ireland can find themselves.
Ireland's constitution officially bans abortion, but a 1992 Supreme Court ruling found it should be legalized for situations when the woman's life is at risk from continuing the pregnancy. Five governments since have refused to pass a law resolving the confusion, leaving Irish hospitals reluctant to terminate pregnancies except in the most obviously life-threatening circumstances.
University Hospital Galway in western Ireland declined to say whether doctors believed Halappanavar's blood poisoning could have been reversed had she received an abortion rather than wait for the fetus to die on its own. In a statement it described its own investigation into the death, and a parallel probe by the national government's Health Service Executive, as "standard practice" whenever a pregnant woman dies in a hospital. The Galway coroner also planned a public inquest.
Savita Halappanavar's husband, Praveen, said doctors determined that she was miscarrying within hours of her hospitalization for severe pain on Sunday, Oct. 21. He said that over the next three days doctors refused their requests for a termination of her fetus to combat her own surging pain and fading health.
"Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby," he told The Irish Times in a telephone interview from Belgaum, southwest India. "When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning, Savita asked: `If they could not save the baby, could they induce to end the pregnancy?' The consultant said: `As long as there is a fetal heartbeat, we can't do anything.'"...

I blame the Vatican.         Her long, slow, painful death was not just murder, it was torture.

[offworlder]

wait, before I reply, I jus opened the window to type but, let me see that paper again, Times- all right I'm ready- the reporter left out the obvious questions, seems going for an issue based piece without all the facts and a shock headline as the Huff is wont to do often- we dont see the doctor side of this, we only see the issue and the family quotes, and the suffering, almost like a suit tort complainant with all the aggrevated language all the loss all the pain and suffering in the legal paper. My big question is: would the abortion if allowed be judged by doctor as the best treatment? would the abortion make all the difference? she died from the blood poisoning which maybe was not part of th e pregnancy, and they continued treating her after the removal of the baby; so we dont know what the exact situation of her health hour by hour was; or the doctor judgement; the whole thing was a judgement call and the reporter is obviously only interested in the part of the facts that fit the article and the emotional issue. And of course the fact the hospital may not want to talk because of any legal issue. I would want to with-hold any personal comment of me on't til I got the facts from the other side, and just how much the abortion would have made the difference in the mum's health hour by hour.

[Sci-Fi Girl]

No, we don't know those details for this specific case.  But the reality is that when there is such a prevailing cultural attitude in one direction, so much that it is enforced  by laws, doctors may hesitate to make that recommendation even when it may help.  Either because of their beliefs, or fear of breaking laws that favor the fetus, or fear of judgement by others like religious leaders and so forth.  Many doctors try their best to remain objective, but not all do, and doctors are still human and part of the prevailing culture.  

So while looking for the doctor's input is a relevant question, it should not be the only factor.  Different treatment may or may not have helped this particular woman, but her treatment may very well have been influenced by the laws and attitudes around her.

SFG

Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 14 November 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[Nikcara]

Here's another article then, focusing more on how this case is making some politicians look into changing abortion laws in Ireland.  

Bear in mind as well - Ireland is really REALLY anti-abortion.  Women can't get abortions in cases of rape, incest, when the child can't survive to term, or when the woman's health is at risk.  Women can only legally get an abortion when their life is in danger - and it may not always be clear when the woman's life is in danger.  What probably happened here was the doctor was unwilling in induce labor because he could still hear a fetal heartbeat, meaning the fetus was still alive.  Since they can't legally abort a non-viable fetus nor legally abort to protect the health of the mother, the doctor probably decided that the fetus would die quickly and then they could treat the mother - unpleasant for her, but taking risks into consideration probably not life threatening.  The fetal heartbeat lasted far longer than anyone thought it would, in turn causing the mother to get worse and worse until her body reached the point of no return.  I doubt the doctors and medical staff had any ill intentions as they were treating her, but were probably well aware that if they did perform an abortion while there was still a fetal heartbeat they would probably be investigated, and if the investigation team decided that the abortion was unnecessary then they could have been disciplined.  Of course given the outcome they're being investigated anyway, but I suspect it was a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.  

A short video about abortion laws in Ireland  

[Nonny]

I see the death I was spared in this woman's death.  There is simply no excuse, none whatsoever, to watch a woman die so horribly.

[DarthMarley]

Tragic story and an excellent case against theocratic styles of government.

I am convinced that my mother had a life saving abortion when I was young, so I have that element of personal experience that keeps me from wanting a world without abortions, though I understand the religious and philosophical imperative that drives those who work towards that end.

[offworlder]

I have read this guy in the Telegraph and he has a good idea on this case, here is his follow up and hint to get truth into the rethinking about the issue as well as the exact case: http://blogs.telegra...facts-straight/ ................. snip snip, > 'But it does not logically follow that Ireland needs a total rethink of its entire approach to abortion that brings it in line with Europe’s essentially pro-choice culture. Aside from the specific medical case for abortion in Savita’s situation, inducing labour to save her life would not necessarily have conflicted with Catholic moral teaching, either. In 1951, Pope Pius XII explicitly ruled that such a procedure “can be lawful.” If it is true, as the Halappanavar family claims, that the Galway doctors said they would not provide a termination because "this is a Catholic country", then they got their theology unforgivably wrong. Savita Halappanavar’s death demands investigation and answers. Aside from giving justice to her family, the implications of any investigation for the wider abortion debate are so wide-ranging that it is crucial that we get the facts unbiased and 100 per cent accurate. Alas, such objectivity is not always applied when it comes to media reporting of the Irish and/or Catholic approach to abortion .. '

[Nonny]

DarthMarley, on 15 November 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

...  the religious and philosophical imperative that drives those who work towards that end.

Which is an arrogant patriarchal imperative to control all aspects of female life, no matter how ignorant the requirements, how tragic the results.

I'm glad your mother lived.

[DarthMarley]

Nonny, on 15 November 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

DarthMarley, on 15 November 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

...  the religious and philosophical imperative that drives those who work towards that end.

Which is an arrogant patriarchal imperative to control all aspects of female life, no matter how ignorant the requirements, how tragic the results.

I'm glad your mother lived.

No, it really isn't.
If we conservatives really wanted to control all aspects of female life, abortion would still be legal, and often be mandatory. Unnecessary breast reduction surgery would be outlawed. And laser vaginal rejuvination procedures would be massively subsidezed and required as needed.
Certainly, many societies have a patrilinear organization.
And yes, in those cultures women do suffer.

But to suggest that rather than religious believers thinking a soul is snuffed out when abortions happen they just want to "control women's lives" is dishonest on the face of it.

Edited by DarthMarley, 15 November 2012 - 02:38 PM.

[Omega]

I tend to agree with DM on that one. There are men who have such attitudes towards women, but there are also non-mysogynistic motives for opposing abortion.

[Mary Rose]

I agree as well.  There are women in the pro life movement.

[Orpheus]

Well, what'd ya know? The female body does have a way to stop unwanted pregnancy.

Sorry. I mean seriously: sorry.

I've done abortions --no apologies-- but I had to seek out that training even here in a 'liberal' Boston medical school. It wasn't part of the standard program. What does that say about the "options"?

[Nonny]

What indeed, Orpheus?  And Darth, I'm still glad your mother lived.  I'll add terror of the power of women to misogyny, but that's as far as I'll go.

I'm sure I've posted the joke about Mexican abortion, the one where the punch line is that with abortion illegal, only the mistresses of priests and politicians could get them.  How about this guy:

http://www.huffingto..._n_2140171.html

Quote

WASHINGTON -- The anti-abortion, pro-family Tennessee congressman who pushed his patient and mistress to get an abortion also agreed that his wife should have two, according to court transcripts released Thursday.
Those documents, from GOP Rep. Scott DesJarlais' 2000 divorce proceedings, paint a lurid picture of a doctor who had multiple affairs with coworkers and patients -- at least one of whom he prescribed pain pills for -- while he was chief of staff at a local hospital.
The Huffington Post first reported that DesJarlais pressured one of his patients to abort a pregnancy that she said came from their flings. The doctor calls the 24-year-old a "psycho" in the transcript of his testimony. DesJarlais won reelection last week, even after reports surfaced that he had sex with other patients, and that he prescribed them pills. DesJarlais admitted the HuffPost report, but challenged the credibility of the later case.
It turns out it was all true, as well as reports that he denied during his 2010 campaign that he stuck a gun in his mouth for more than two hours, and threatened suicide after it became apparent he could not repair his marriage with his then-wife, Susan.
Although DesJarlais called the 2010 reports "all false", he testified under oath they were true....

[Nonny]

http://www.huffingto...erm=Daily Brief
Savita's Death Was Not an Isolated Incident

Quote

By now news of Savita Halappanavar's senseless death has traveled around the world, drawing attention to Ireland's near-total ban on abortion and the horrific consequences of such policies. This is not a stand-alone case. Every 90 seconds a woman dies from complications related to pregnancy and childbirth, totaling more than 350,000 deaths worldwide each year. Nearly all of these deaths occur in developing countries, where access to modern medical care is scarce.
What makes Savita's story so shocking is that she died in a modern hospital in a developed European country. We health advocates spend a lot of time and energy fighting for the kind of access Savita (almost) had. Hers was a planned pregnancy. She herself was a medical professional, a dentist, who recognized the warning signs of pregnancy complications. When she felt severe pains, she and her husband didn't have to travel far to reach a clean, modern hospital where her health problems were quickly diagnosed. And when she learned that she was miscarrying and that her life was in danger, she asked her doctor about her options and requested that her pregnancy be ended before it killed her.
Lack of access to medical care did not kill Savita -- politics did.
The slow and painful death Ireland's abortion ban forced Savita to endure, and forced her husband to witness, brings to mind another tragic story. Earlier this year, doctors in the Dominican Republic refused chemotherapy to a 16-year-old cancer patient because she was pregnant.
Think this couldn't happen in the United States? Think again....

[Nonny]

Ireland Has Performed Its First-Ever Legal Abortion, And It Saved A Dying Woman’s Life

http://thinkprogress...legal-abortion/

Quote

The first legal abortion in an Irish hospital has been carried out in Dublin, the Irish Times confirmed on Friday. It represents the first pregnancy termination under Ireland’s historic new abortion law, which slightly relaxed the country’s total ban to allow for legal abortions in cases when it’s necessary to preserve a woman’s life.
Before Ireland’s prime minister approved the new law in July, the country’s abortion laws had not been updated since 1867. Now, there are 25 Irish hospitals that are authorized to perform legal abortions in life-threatening cases without worrying about legal repercussions.
The National Maternity Hospital in Dublin carried out the pregnancy termination for a dying woman whose membrane had ruptured for more than 24 hours. She ran a high risk of sepsis, and her 18-week twin fetuses had no chance of survival outside of the womb. Doctors said her case bore many similarities to that of Savita Halappanavar, a 31-year-old woman who died after being denied an emergency abortion in an Irish Catholic hospital last year. Halappanavar developed sepsis after she began to miscarry, but doctors wouldn’t terminate her doomed pregnancy until the fetal heartbeat had officially stopped three days later — and by that time, it was too late.
The Irish Times reports that in contrast to Halappanavar, the woman who received a legal abortion this month “has made a good recovery after receiving antibiotic treatment and undergoing the termination a number of weeks ago.”...

Excellent news.      Her life has been spared, but now I hope she is also spared any backlash.

[Lin731]

I totally understand there are those that for religious reasons believe abortion is wrong and I'm fine with that...so long as they aren't dictating to everyone else. When women die while doctors try to decide what the political and legal ramifications are for them...we have a problem. I'm pro choice and couldn't conceive of ever choosing abortion for any reason other than a threat to my life. My daughter who is pregnant right now is very religious and Pro Life, yet at the end of the day, our views aren't that far apart (as I think is likely the case for many people here and around the world). I don't want abortion used as birth control but also don't want women dying because of dictates handed down due to religious beliefs they may not share or by a largely male legislative branch whose life and health AREN'T endangered by their laws or from Pro Life women who feel they have the right to decide an unborn fetus takes precedence over the already born woman carrying it. If you belief abortion is wrong, then don't ever have one but don't impose your beliefs on people who don't share your POV. If as a Pro Life woman, you're willing to sacrifice your health or even your life in an attempt to bring your baby into the world, God bless, I wish you nothing but the best possible outcome but that is a risk YOU are willing to take with YOUR OWN life and health, don't try to impose that on others.

Edited by Lin731, 23 August 2013 - 08:26 PM.