36 replies to this topic

[offworlder]

hey wait, didnt Lincoln fight a war over this? didnt he make clear statements about the Union of our United States, and important keeping us all together?
http://www.huffingto...ref=mostpopular
Apparently some citizens in states like Texas have put in petitions to the WhiteHouse about secesh'in from these our states of Union
PS now Perry of Texas weighs in.

So, what about those Lincoln quotes of old? and what about any states secesh'in out? and have you read the book Allegiance by David Detzer? what would you say bout secesh?

[Orpheus]

Lincoln can say what he wants. Hard to take him seriously when his podium is built on the Declaration of Independence. England thought it was important that we stay together, too. Had a hard time accepting that it had to abandon the relationship due to pressures nearer home -- hence The War of 1812 aka The US Revolution Part II aka trying to bully your once-submissive ex into getting back together.

-- Orpheus "Jefferson: thy naval impressment impresses us not"

[Cait]

Let's, for the sake of argument, concede that states can succeed from the union. They can't, but let's say they can.  

[And, I say the following as a person who believes a state actually does have the right to leave the union.  It's just a stupid idea in today's world and given today's realities.]

None of these silly people, in these silly states, have thought about the consequences of such an action.  No more US Defense for their state or borders or against foreign enemies.   No FBI. No CIA, No real armed forces.  No more federal funds for transportation, highways, no interstate commerce, no medicaid, no federal funds for education, no funds for ANYTHING.  

Which as it just happens would be just fine for those of us in Blue states because we've been supporting the Red States through taxes for decades.  Yet, no one balks about re-distribution of $$ then.  Hell no.  Let those rich liberals in California pay taxes so money can be sent to Alabama and Texas and Mississippi.  That's not redistribution at all.

All this silly noise over being on the losing side of an election. It's the silliest thing I've ever heard of, and only shows how stupid these people really are..

[Cait]

Orpheus, on 14 November 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Lincoln can say what he wants. Hard to take him seriously when his podium is built on the Declaration of Independence.  

Precisely why I believe the right to leave exists.  The Declaration makes it quite clear.

Most people don't realize just how radical a document the Declaration is.  The Constitution was designed primarily so that the Declaration would never have to be invoked again in the US.  The Declaration is a revolutionary document and radical idea.  The Constitution was and is an anti-revolutionary document.  We celebrate the declaration, but we live under the laws of the Constitution.  I consider it one of the best propaganda campaigns of all time, to be honest.

[Tricia]

No... none of these people have thought this through as to the reality of what it would mean.

It's a matter of  them not liking the results of the election so they are  stomping their feet and throwing a hissy fit.

As  to Perry weighing in--(from the OP link)

Quote

The Dallas Morning News reports that the Republican governor's press secretary, Catherine Frazier, said in an email that Perry "believes in the greatness of our Union and nothing should be done to change it." She added, "But he also shares the frustrations many Americans have with our federal government.

First thing he's said in forever that I can agree with.


I've talked about this elsewhere and may I add that IF you look at any of those petitions, there are a lot of signatures of people who do not live in that particular state...at least not currently as they either do not identify their residence or are identified as living elsewhere.

These petitions are from  individuals, not the actual state...and all the comments I have read in support usually always come back to being about Obama being re-elected.  You've got the yahoos who want it and are angry and you have the rest of us.It's a loud but small group who wants this.  Or thinks that's what they want, right now because the anger is doing the talking not logic or reality.

Nice article linked below about the fact and fiction of  secession as concerns Texas.

.http://blog.chron.co...ct-and-fiction/

Edited by Tricia, 14 November 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[Mark]

Mark: There is no logic in wanting Texas to secede from the union. I'd say if any single state could actually pull it off, it may well be Texas, BUT...what benefit would the people of Texas actually see from secession? NONE

Edited by Mark, 14 November 2012 - 04:08 PM.

[cade]

Cait, on 14 November 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

Let's, for the sake of argument, concede that states can succeed from the union. They can't, but let's say they can.  

[And, I say the following as a person who believes a state actually does have the right to leave the union.  It's just a stupid idea in today's world and given today's realities.]

None of these silly people, in these silly states, have thought about the consequences of such an action.  No more US Defense for their state or borders or against foreign enemies.   No FBI. No CIA, No real armed forces.  No more federal funds for transportation, highways, no interstate commerce, no medicaid, no federal funds for education, no funds for ANYTHING.  

Which as it just happens would be just fine for those of us in Blue states because we've been supporting the Red States through taxes for decades.  Yet, no one balks about re-distribution of $$ then.  Hell no.  Let those rich liberals in California pay taxes so money can be sent to Alabama and Texas and Mississippi.  That's not redistribution at all.

All this silly noise over being on the losing side of an election. It's the silliest thing I've ever heard of, and only shows how stupid these people really are..

My thoughts exactly. The only reason I'm against red states seceding is because I don't want to leave those people behind and descending into third-world status, but if they did secede, the rest of us would be far better off. Same-sex marriage and abortion would be non-issues. We could finally join the rest of the developed world and have national health care, a more progressive tax code and less military spending, the combination of which would wipe out most of our deficit, allowing for heavy investment in jobs programs, science, education, infrastructure and clean energy. The banks and Wall Street speculators would still be a big problem, though, as they've captured the Democrats almost as much as the Republicans.

[Mark]

Mark: Folks, I'm a Texan. I can safely say this stupid idea was being brought out of the bowels of darkness by a VERY FEW, VERY IGNORANT people. Don't lump all Texans into stereotypical hicks ready to join the third world because of the outcome of a national election.
I take great offense to any of you taking that point-of-view, because it's just not true.

[Tricia]

Folks---

You all  do realize that these secession petitions have been filed in 30 states?

and not all of them red states.
http://www.huffingto..._n_2120410.html

Quote

Here's a list of states where residents have filed secession petitions in recent days: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming

So not just Texas or red states.

I suspect that there are  a lot of people signing on a bunch of different petitions....remember I said that I looked at the Texas petition and there were a LOT of signatures of people who are not Texans.  and the news coverage of this has pointed the way to a place to show how angry/disgruntled they are. (I suspect that if one really checks, some people have signed several petitions for states in which they do  not live just because they can)

Once this made the news, the number of petitions to secede jumped as did the number of signatures. Texas' went from 25,000 to 75,000 in no time flat after news broke....again not all Texans and btw population at last census was approx 24 million. So again....a small percentage of total population.

this secession thing is nothing but sour grapes over election results.

Edited by Tricia, 14 November 2012 - 08:01 PM.

[Themis]

Mark, on 14 November 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Mark: There is no logic in wanting Texas to secede from the union. I'd say if any single state could actually pull it off, it may well be Texas, BUT...what benefit would the people of Texas actually see from secession? NONE

I lived in El Paso for a total of 5 godforsaken years in my high school years and my parents stayed there.  At least then, the place seemed to be more New Mexico (and Old Mexico) than part of Texas.  Maybe that's changed?  (BTW, I went to excellent schools there - I seem to recall that because we got students from Ft. Bliss families, my high school got extra federal money and we had a lot of advanced classes offered.)

I'm thoroughly disgusted by these secessionist idiots (aside from anything else, it worked out so well last time...).  Unfortunately, after 20 years in LA (Los Angeles, NOT Louisiana), I now live in a red state... though a blue county.   But two years living in England in the late '50's, a lot of close English friends and many trips to Europe have left me with a mid-Atlantic viewpoint.   I really fear what could happen in this country with the lack of education (especially in red states?) and decision making by sound bites.  Fortunately  I'm physically old (mentally around 40!) and even Romney and Ryan weren't threatening my Medicare or social security, so I can hope others fight the good fight.  From my observations of the general public here, reading - especially reading with comprehension - is a lost art.

[Mark]

Mark: This should really emphasize how important journalism can be...especially when they're reporting to an ignorant or already biased population. Our media outlets have blown this out of proportion.

[Cheile]

most of the people signing these idiot petitions do not even LIVE in the states they are for.  that alone should make these petitions null and void.

sore losers, all of them.

[Ihaveaglitch]

Mark, on 14 November 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Mark: There is no logic in wanting Texas to secede from the union. I'd say if any single state could actually pull it off, it may well be Texas, BUT...what benefit would the people of Texas actually see from secession? NONE

Agreed! Texas is the ONLY state that can feasibly do this, but the cons far outweigh the pros.  Look i'm not happy with how the election turned out either, my employer just announced layoffs for 1000 positions as a result of Obamacare (and I work at a hospital by the way).  But wanting to secede is just stupid.

[Tricia]

Cheile, on 14 November 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

most of the people signing these idiot petitions do not even LIVE in the states they are for. that alone should make these petitions null and void.

You'd think so

I'd take it more seriously IF this was coming from the states themselves


Correction from my earlier post as there are now petitions to secede up for ALL 50 states and I'm willing to bet you'll find some people signing every one of those petitions regardless of where they live.

edited to add---my point being that this evidently is a new way to vent their anger without thinking about the real consequences and problems that may result.

Edited by Tricia, 15 November 2012 - 07:31 AM.

[Omega]

Cait, on 14 November 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

None of these silly people, in these silly states, have thought about the consequences of such an action.  No more US Defense for their state or borders or against foreign enemies.   No FBI. No CIA, No real armed forces.  No more federal funds for transportation, highways, no interstate commerce, no medicaid, no federal funds for education, no funds for ANYTHING.  

I actually considered that as a thought experiment once. Say the US government was going to collapse; how much, and for how long, would Tennessee have to prepare to operate as an independent state? So much was involved that I pretty much threw up my hands before getting very far. It's not at all practical except as a very long-term plan, slowly implemented.

[DarthMarley]

Well, this topic is ceratinly fodder for the "look at those stupid conservatives" types.
Yes, it is sour grapes.
Yes, it is a silly idea.
But forget secession for a moment and pnonder how continuing current levels of entitlement spending might collapse not just a few states with a conservative population, but the whole nation.

[Cait]

DarthMarley, on 15 November 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Well, this topic is certainly fodder for the "look at those stupid conservatives" types.

I'm not sure the comments were aimed at Conservatives per se.  I know  lot of Republicans who think this is a silly idea. So, I'd not make it a partisan issue.  But, stupid is stupid, regardless of one's party affiliation.  Ya know what I mean?  I pretty much thought the "puma's and Larry Johnson" were stupid and silly back in 08.  But, I'd not sewwp them up with the broad brush of "liberals.

[Orpheus]

I've always been struck that the Union and Confederacy COULD have lived apart. Even though I'm perfectly happy with the current state of affairs, I always felt it was philosophically shaky back in the day -- even if I weren't Georgian.

I've never liked "pragmatism", which can pretty much be defined as "we don't have a compelling philosophical argument (or we'd use it instead), but we need to bow to our biases/wishes"

[Tricia]

I'm just not a fan of the overly dramatic statement.  And this petition to secede  is one imo.

Not sure that those who came up with this thought out out the reality of what they were proposing.

Also not sure that some sigs on there aren't also folks who are reacting to the petition by signing it because 'well, if you want to leave so bad then I'll help show you the door'

Lots of folks not even attempting to be kind to each other or just letting the anger speak for them as opposed to logic and reason and trying to see each others POV.  On both sides.

BTW I agree with what Cait said because I know a lot of conservative Republicans friends who just shake their head and say the same thing about sour grapes that has been said here when the subject comes up.

Edited by Tricia, 16 November 2012 - 08:54 AM.

[Nonny]