36 replies to this topic

[Nonny]

I didn't realize this was a double post when I edited for the quote box I missed.    

Edited by Nonny, 17 November 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[Nonny]

http://mediamatters....uld-actu/191390

Fox's Economic Argument For Secession Would Actually Create A "Confederacy of Takers"

Quote

Fox News' The Five argued that petitions created and signed by people calling for secession from the United States following President Obama's re-election were justified because conservative-leaning "red states" are more financially responsible than liberal-leaning "blue states." But data shows that secession would lead to what is being called a "Confederacy of Takers" because "red states" tend to receive more in federal benefits than they pay in taxes, while "blue states" typically receive less....

Gosh, imagine that.    

Edited by Nonny, 16 November 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[Bad Wolf]

I don't think any state will actually try to secede but if they were to secede Orpheus' first point in this thread is very well taken.  From the British pov the Declaration of Independence was an act of treason.
At any rate, if I were President and some states were making serious noise about secession I'd cut off Federal funding.

[Tricia]

^^^But that serious noise needs to be coming from the state and its elected officials  before any federal funding is cut....

Not because of a petition started by a few individuals. and not even signed by a significant percentage of actual current residents of said state.


BTW this is a way to overwhelm and abuse this petition system on whitehouse.gov. because Obama made it known that if enough people signed a petition there that he would respond to whatever it was.  So now if he doesn't answer they will gripe....and if he does then they will still gripe no matter what he says.

Edited by Tricia, 16 November 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[Bad Wolf]

I believe I said serious.

[Godeskian]

Tricia, on 16 November 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

BTW this is a way to overwhelm and abuse this petition system on whitehouse.gov. because Obama made it known that if enough people signed a petition there that he would respond to whatever it was.  So now if he doesn't answer they will gripe....and if he does then they will still gripe no matter what he says.

Heads you lose, tails you don't win?

Sometimes pushing someone into a response when there is no response that won't fan the flames further is a form of winning in it's own right.

[Tricia]

^^^agree totally.

Bad Wolf, on 16 November 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

I believe I said serious.

Sorry, Lil....

I think I need to enforce my own rule about not commenting on online article links at their sites because I may be getting overly sensitive....and I have been doing just that.

Edited by Tricia, 16 November 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[Orpheus]

And BTW, offworlder, before I forget, let me say that I like the title of this thread.

"secesh" is fairly clear but it has some real flavor. I don't suppose we could/should do that with all threads [I'm a huge fan of clarity in titles], but it works fine here. It's one-word art.

[Bad Wolf]

Tricia no worries.   Like I said, I mostly think this is nonsense but I also think there are some states that....well....you know.   To them I say:  BYE.

[DWF]

Orpheus, on 14 November 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Lincoln can say what he wants. Hard to take him seriously when his podium is built on the Declaration of Independence. England thought it was important that we stay together, too. Had a hard time accepting that it had to abandon the relationship due to pressures nearer home -- hence The War of 1812 aka The US Revolution Part II aka trying to bully your once-submissive ex into getting back together.

-- Orpheus "Jefferson: thy naval impressment impresses us not"

Lincoln had a podium made of onion paper?

[Tricia]

Bad Wolf, on 17 November 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

Tricia no worries.   Like I said, I mostly think this is nonsense but I also think there are some states that....well....you know.   To them I say:  BYE.

I'm not willing to say that because the official faces change, the rhetoric changes over time and I know that the official viewpoint is not always that of majority of the people.

You know the big mouths of which I speak, no doubt (and if you don't, think about the Governor who makes me see red)

I've mused on this and I have to admit that I get tired of the squeaky wheels because all the anger and 'my way or the highway' tude only seems to make things worse.  Again, both sides.  People only seem to remember the loud, angry, and nutty and none of the logical, reasoned debate or comments.

BTW... no one has commented on the fact that Puerto Rico wants to join up officially and become the 51st state now...even in the midst of all the secession talk (though not sure whether it's really clear what they want either)   http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=17674879

Edited by Tricia, 17 November 2012 - 09:34 AM.

[Nonny]

Bad Wolf, on 17 November 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

Tricia no worries.   Like I said, I mostly think this is nonsense but I also think there are some states that....well....you know.   To them I say:  BYE.

Somebody in our state has apparently signed one.      I think people happy with the election results outnumber him overwhelmingly though.    

[Tricia]

^^^or at least more of those who don't react this way to their candidate not winning.

One thing I learned a long time ago was how to deal with disappointment and adjust my sails (while still trying to change things)

Yep, there are petitions to secede from all 50 states now.

[SparkyCola]

Silly. Luckily not serious. But interesting to think about hypothetically.

Tricia: Totally get where you're coming from. That's how I feel about parts of the UK wanting to split off (Scotland mainly, a little bit from Wales too) ... and we're small enough already!! I see absolutely no advantage to splitting up, when things work so well together, and there's so much benefit, and everything's already in place and working well. But I digress... just wanted to say I know how you feel, it's very irritating when you have a good thing that represents cooperation, mutual respect and well - union - and people want to say that it's not possible and we can't all get on and work together (despite the fact we've been doing it for centuries).

On the other hand, things are a bit different in the US because your political parties are very distinct. I think it was John Burke said something along the lines of: What do you do when two areas genuinely want two completely different forms of political governance?

Right now you have a government that flip-flops between extremes and that's not great for consistency or stability. I honestly think the two parties are at maximum distance from each other - they can't grow further apart without serious problems. That's why I think the Republican party needs to get real and become more moderate.

I wouldn't want the US to become fragmented or de-stabilised so I'm against it breaking up. Having the US as a world power is greatly to the advantage of the UK and Europe generally. And like I said - I'm just against breaking up unions for pathetic reasons - it has to be a very very solid reason before you undertake something so very drastic, and volatile.

Sparky

[Tricia]

An update--

http://blog.chron.co...ssion-petition/

Quote

In a statement entitled “Our States Remain United,” the Obama administration rejected nine state secession petitions that have received at least 25,000 signatures on the White House’s “We the People” web site — the threshold to require an administration response.

“In a nation of 300 million people — each with their own set of deeply-held beliefs — democracy can be noisy and controversial. And that’s a good thing,” wrote Jon Carson, director of the Office of Public Engagement, “Free and open debate is what makes this country work, and many people around the world risk their lives every day for the liberties we often take for granted.”

Secession petitions have proven to be a popular pastime among conservative firebrands in recent months. The White House has received secession requests for all 50 states — along with one asking for Austin to be given permission to remain in the United States if the rest of Texas secedes. More than 675,000 people have affixed their names to those petitions on a White House web site.

The other petitions rejected by the White House — all from former states of the Confederacy — sought independence from Washington for Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, North Carolina, South Carolina and Tennessee.

Many of the Texas petition signers were from outside Texas, including hundreds who signed it to bid good riddance to the only American state to once have been a sovereign republic.

The understated White House response today seemed more like a high school history lesson than a revival of fiery Civil War rhetoric. Team Obama welcomed a healthy debate over the Union but cautioned that the debate should not be used to “tear us apart.”

[Nonny]

Tricia, on 15 January 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Quote

Many of the Texas petition signers were from outside Texas, including hundreds who signed it to bid good riddance to the only American state to once have been a sovereign republic.

[Tricia]

^^Well, that's kind of what I was saying after viewing the petition online and seeing all those out of state sigs.

Which was just as bad as those who signed it wanting the secession for their state


I imagine there were a lot of sigs on all of those other states petitions for the same reason...kind of a 'don't let the door hit ya on your way out' thing.