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1.13 Battle Lines

DS9-RW

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#1 Orpheus

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:14 AM

A runabout carrying Kai Opaka crashes on a planet of eternal war, where it is impossible for the combatants to die.



#2 DWF

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:30 PM

It was rather gusty of them to kill of Kai Opaka and it's highly likely that the Dominion put them on that planet and gave them a kind of immortality. It's a shame this wasn't followed up on later in the series, but it was cool seeing Jonathan Banks on a Star Trek series he's long been an actor I've liked over the years.
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#3 FarscapeOne

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:59 PM

It was a gutsy move killing off Opaka like that.  It still left the door open later for her to appear again, even though it never happened except as a Prophet vision.

I always look back at this episode and think, "Why didn't they ever simply chop off their heads?  Maybe Duncan MacLeod is a Starfleet officer at this time and could help these people out..."

#4 writergroupie

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:18 PM

And as quickly as she is introduced, Kai Opaka goes buh-bye. :p

I'll admit I couldn't stand her - probably a combination of casting and writing that just didn't work.  But the character concept had great possibilities that it was a shame didn't get to be explored a little further.  Still, her absence led to great things - and great casting - for the show, so it was probably all for the best.

As for the ep itself - another TNG-wannabe.  Even Julian's genius couldn't save it for me. :D  Meh.
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#5 DWF

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:33 PM

While the story could've been told on TNG that's true for a large number of modern Star Trek stories, I think in retrospect this one set up a number of future storylines that could onlybe told on DSN. Getting rid of Opaka allowed them to create a conflict character in Winn and I do think it was Founders who were behind their punishment.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#6 writergroupie

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 02:06 PM

I think it was more the simplistic preachiness of the alien "problem" that seemed TNG-like to me.  And the fact that it really was never followed up on - hey, did someone bother to check on these people? Ever?

But you're right, there were important repercussions for the storyline of the show, which as I said, led to some oh so wonderful casting (Louise Fletcher) of a brilliant character. :)
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#7 Rhys

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:06 PM

Kai Opaka's name, as a religious leader, always made me think "Opaka/Alpaca, Lama/Llama". Was that deliberate, or an amusing coincidence?
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#8 FarscapeOne

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:06 PM

I'm not too sure there would have been much to follow up on.  Opaka was basically serving as an ambassador for warring factions that were killing each other endlessly for centuries.  I don't care how good a peacemaker you are, you can't get them past that in a few short years, which from the time of this to the end of the series was about 6 and 1/2.

And given the nature of the orbitting satellite network, it would have made going there quite hazardous.  Not to mention pretty much all the forays into the Gamma quadrant were ill fated... New Bajor, a number of Starfleet ships lost, etc.

Edited by FarscapeOne, 27 January 2013 - 05:08 PM.


#9 writergroupie

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:46 PM

^ But she was the Pope (equivalent)!  SOMEBODY would have tried to get messages to her, something!  Heck, Kira would have tried something, not just forgotten about her entirely!

If it was TNG, of course it never would have been followed up on - sorry about that, cute deaf mediator, places to go, things to do, just muddle along with the warring factions please!

But this was DS9, obviously not that far a trip through the wormhole.  I'll just continue to assume the followup happened... offscreen. :p
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#10 Cybersnark

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:40 PM

Well, Opaka (and this planet) do reappear in a DS9 novel after the series, but I'm not sure we're including the re-launch as part of this rewatch.
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#11 writergroupie

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 10:56 PM

^ Not. Canon. :p  (says someone who contributed to DS9 fiction ;))

A lot of stuff does get addressed in the books, but for me, if I'm noting plot droppings (eww), I'm just focused on the show itself. :)

Edited by writergroupie, 27 January 2013 - 10:57 PM.

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#12 FarscapeOne

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:22 AM

Plot droppings... I love that one!!!!

DS9 had nowhere near the amount of plot droppings as the rest of the franchise.  For example, if we were to start noting plot droppings of VOYAGER, we'd have a mountain of sh... I mean, droppings.

Edited by FarscapeOne, 28 January 2013 - 04:23 AM.


#13 DWF

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:40 AM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 28 January 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

Plot droppings... I love that one!!!!

DS9 had nowhere near the amount of plot droppings as the rest of the franchise.  For example, if we were to start noting plot droppings of VOYAGER, we'd have a mountain of sh... I mean, droppings.

No, DS9 had more than the others hence the relaunch and is Bajor a part of the Federation yet and has the rest of the Orbs been found?
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#14 writergroupie

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:18 AM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 28 January 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

Plot droppings... I love that one!!!!

DS9 had nowhere near the amount of plot droppings as the rest of the franchise.  For example, if we were to start noting plot droppings of VOYAGER, we'd have a mountain of sh... I mean, droppings.
:D
I write, therefore I am.

But... but... if it's not magic and sparkly how can I use it to reshape the universe?  Without the magic sparklies, it's like... just a metaphor.
-- Me (on bonsai)

#15 FarscapeOne

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:28 AM

View PostDWF, on 28 January 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

View PostFarscapeOne, on 28 January 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

Plot droppings... I love that one!!!!

DS9 had nowhere near the amount of plot droppings as the rest of the franchise.  For example, if we were to start noting plot droppings of VOYAGER, we'd have a mountain of sh... I mean, droppings.

No, DS9 had more than the others hence the relaunch and is Bajor a part of the Federation yet and has the rest of the Orbs been found?

Bajor would have undoubtedly become a member after the Dominion War, since it was Sisko that stopped them from becoming a part in season 5.  We didn't have to see it because it really was just a matter of time.

As for the Orbs, it took them CENTURIES to find the ones they did find.  I don't think they would have ever found them all, to be honest.  Besides, given the nature of the Prophets, they could easily send dozens more than are already in existence into the past without anyone knowing.  I look at that as the triple E... Endless Easter Egg hunt.

I still contend that DS9 didn't have the glaring plot droppings as other STAR TREK series.  I mean droppings like the 6th season VOYAGER episode "COLLECTIVE".  The Borg baby... it seemed to have survived, but what happened to it?  It was never seen or mentioned again for the year and a half that was left of that series.  Did someone on the ship raise it?  Did they find another world to give it a home?  Or send it to its homeworld?  Plot droppings like that were rare on DS9.

#16 DWF

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:15 PM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 28 January 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

View PostDWF, on 28 January 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

View PostFarscapeOne, on 28 January 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

Plot droppings... I love that one!!!!

DS9 had nowhere near the amount of plot droppings as the rest of the franchise.  For example, if we were to start noting plot droppings of VOYAGER, we'd have a mountain of sh... I mean, droppings.

No, DS9 had more than the others hence the relaunch and is Bajor a part of the Federation yet and has the rest of the Orbs been found?

Bajor would have undoubtedly become a member after the Dominion War, since it was Sisko that stopped them from becoming a part in season 5.  We didn't have to see it because it really was just a matter of time.

As for the Orbs, it took them CENTURIES to find the ones they did find.  I don't think they would have ever found them all, to be honest.  Besides, given the nature of the Prophets, they could easily send dozens more than are already in existence into the past without anyone knowing.  I look at that as the triple E... Endless Easter Egg hunt.

I still contend that DS9 didn't have the glaring plot droppings as other STAR TREK series.  I mean droppings like the 6th season VOYAGER episode "COLLECTIVE".  The Borg baby... it seemed to have survived, but what happened to it?  It was never seen or mentioned again for the year and a half that was left of that series.  Did someone on the ship raise it?  Did they find another world to give it a home?  Or send it to its homeworld?  Plot droppings like that were rare on DS9.

But what I'm saying is did the events that didn't happen on the show be put into book form? For that matter did Sisko get into trouble for breaking orders in For The Uniform or The Die Is Cast, There were plenty of lose ends from the end of the Dominion War, some of which I'm sure were covered in the books.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#17 QuiGon John

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:01 AM

Two things:

1. I did find the fact that Bajor didn't enter the Federation by the finale troubling. Even more than fighting the Dominion, that was kind of the point of the show. It wouldn't have killed them to cut twenty seconds from the climactic glowing-eye battles and show us a scene with Kira learning that Bajor had officially joined the Federation.

2. I think when it comes to "plot droppings," the thing that Niners appreciate is that the show at least TRIED to clean up after itself. It told a long, complicated story, so of course some plot threads are going to get lost. The only way to avoid that would be to have the whole thing planned out in advance, ala B5. We know DS9 didn't do that, but we appreciate that they tried to tell us as coherent a story as possible.

With Voyager, by contrast, what rankled was that they didn't even try-- in fact, specifically disavowed any attempt at a continuing story, in a setting that really demanded one. So, once you accept that Voyager somehow never ran out of supplies, rarely had trouble with the Maquis crew, and magically repaired itself, maybe it didn't leave as many loose ends as DS9-- but that's precisely because it lacked storytelling ambition. It not only didn't end plots, it barely started them!

Give me a show that makes an effort and leaves some things wanting any day.

#18 Cardie

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:45 PM

Given all the dirty little secrets we learned about the Federation during DS9, I always felt Bajor not joining up was the point.
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#19 FarscapeOne

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:59 PM

View PostDWF, on 28 January 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

View PostFarscapeOne, on 28 January 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

View PostDWF, on 28 January 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

View PostFarscapeOne, on 28 January 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

Plot droppings... I love that one!!!!

DS9 had nowhere near the amount of plot droppings as the rest of the franchise.  For example, if we were to start noting plot droppings of VOYAGER, we'd have a mountain of sh... I mean, droppings.

No, DS9 had more than the others hence the relaunch and is Bajor a part of the Federation yet and has the rest of the Orbs been found?

Bajor would have undoubtedly become a member after the Dominion War, since it was Sisko that stopped them from becoming a part in season 5.  We didn't have to see it because it really was just a matter of time.

As for the Orbs, it took them CENTURIES to find the ones they did find.  I don't think they would have ever found them all, to be honest.  Besides, given the nature of the Prophets, they could easily send dozens more than are already in existence into the past without anyone knowing.  I look at that as the triple E... Endless Easter Egg hunt.

I still contend that DS9 didn't have the glaring plot droppings as other STAR TREK series.  I mean droppings like the 6th season VOYAGER episode "COLLECTIVE".  The Borg baby... it seemed to have survived, but what happened to it?  It was never seen or mentioned again for the year and a half that was left of that series.  Did someone on the ship raise it?  Did they find another world to give it a home?  Or send it to its homeworld?  Plot droppings like that were rare on DS9.

But what I'm saying is did the events that didn't happen on the show be put into book form? For that matter did Sisko get into trouble for breaking orders in For The Uniform or The Die Is Cast, There were plenty of lose ends from the end of the Dominion War, some of which I'm sure were covered in the books.

When Sisko broke orders in "THE DIE IS CAST", it was addressed at the end when he was talking with the Admiral.  He said something like,  'Disobey orders again and I'll court martial you, or promote you.  Either way, you'll be in a lot of trouble."  I think he was given a pass considering the circumstances.

As to the situation in "FOR THE UNIFORM", he did disobey orders, but he stopped Eddington from doing more harm AND brought him in... it got results, and almost any organization would be willing to look the other way once in a while when a situation happens where one of their people breaks rules but gets the job done better and quicker than going by the book.

#20 FarscapeOne

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 02:03 PM

View PostQuiGon John, on 29 January 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

2. I think when it comes to "plot droppings," the thing that Niners appreciate is that the show at least TRIED to clean up after itself. It told a long, complicated story, so of course some plot threads are going to get lost. The only way to avoid that would be to have the whole thing planned out in advance, ala B5. We know DS9 didn't do that, but we appreciate that they tried to tell us as coherent a story as possible.

With Voyager, by contrast, what rankled was that they didn't even try-- in fact, specifically disavowed any attempt at a continuing story, in a setting that really demanded one. So, once you accept that Voyager somehow never ran out of supplies, rarely had trouble with the Maquis crew, and magically repaired itself, maybe it didn't leave as many loose ends as DS9-- but that's precisely because it lacked storytelling ambition. It not only didn't end plots, it barely started them!

Give me a show that makes an effort and leaves some things wanting any day.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  It's supremely difficult to tie up ALL loose ends on a series that you might have full control of, let alone one where there are multiple minds taking care of it.  DS9 did a superb job of tying up what they did, considering all they had to take care of by the end.



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