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1.07 Q-Less

DS9-RW

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#21 Josh

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:29 PM

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I don't know how you can say that, only Bashir seemed to take an interest.

Q, obviously. And Quark, although it could be argued he was more into her for her business sense... at least until she performed Ferengi oral sex on him.
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#22 DWF

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 09:37 PM

View PostJosh, on 17 January 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

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I don't know how you can say that, only Bashir seemed to take an interest.

Q, obviously. And Quark, although it could be argued he was more into her for her business sense... at least until she performed Ferengi oral sex on him.

Q wasn't romantically involved with Vash, he needed her as a companion almost like on Doctor Who, Q needs Vash to enjoy the universe. And Quark was just interested in Dax and Kira and just about any female.
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#23 BklnScott

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:37 PM

This is one of the ones I rewatched.  I thought it was pretty clear they had been romantically involved when they were arguing over  who left who (read: who broke up with who).

And how else to explain the control she had over him?  He deferred to Vash more in this ep than he ever had to Picard or anyone on the TNG crew.  He was the spurned-yet-still-smitten lover.

The whole thing had the air of a Love Boat or Fantasy Island plot - the squabbling ex-lovers as guest stars.

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#24 DWF

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:45 AM

View PostBklnScott, on 17 January 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

This is one of the ones I rewatched.  I thought it was pretty clear they had been romantically involved when they were arguing over  who left who (read: who broke up with who).

And how else to explain the control she had over him?  He deferred to Vash more in this ep than he ever had to Picard or anyone on the TNG crew.  He was the spurned-yet-still-smitten lover.

The whole thing had the air of a Love Boat or Fantasy Island plot - the squabbling ex-lovers as guest stars.

Any yet by the time Q showed up on Voyager Vash was completely forgotten about, he even admitted to needing to seeing the universe though her eyes.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

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#25 FarscapeOne

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:58 PM

One could argue that time works quite differently for the Q.  And it has been proven, as seen with Q's child in "Q2".  Janeway noted it was only a 4 years since he was born, and yet his appearance there he was in his late teens.  Time could have been even longer for Q between his appearance on DS9 and his first appearance on VOYAGER.  So he could have easily moved on in that 'long' period of time.

Edited by FarscapeOne, 18 January 2013 - 12:59 PM.


#26 Cybersnark

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:27 AM

Also, Q is kinda a douchebag.
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#27 foborg

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 02:15 PM

I always hated Q episodes for that reason. I found him annoyingly annoying instead of charmingly annoying (the latter is what I think the writers aimed for). But when I rewatch Q eps these days, they are much more fun, for some reason. Maybe they weren't aimed at the agegroup I was in for the first watches :)

Edited by foborg, 20 January 2013 - 02:16 PM.

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#28 QuiGon John

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 02:27 PM

What I always thought was that some enterprising (small E) Starfleet captain should try NOT treating Q as an annoyance. He was, after all, brilliant and all-powerful; rather than fussing and fuming at a guy who could squash you, why not try befriending him? (Picard and Janeway did team up with him to various degrees, but they always saw him as basically a problem rather than an opportunity...)

Of course, it's possible Q just thrived on the attention and, like any selfish adolescent, would have simply checked out if he didn't seem to be getting a reaction. But it always seemed to me that a different approach would have been worth a shot.

Just WHY super-advanced aliens always act like selfish adolescents on Trek is a whole different question... ;)

#29 DWF

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:29 PM

View PostQuiGon John, on 20 January 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

What I always thought was that some enterprising (small E) Starfleet captain should try NOT treating Q as an annoyance. He was, after all, brilliant and all-powerful; rather than fussing and fuming at a guy who could squash you, why not try befriending him? (Picard and Janeway did team up with him to various degrees, but they always saw him as basically a problem rather than an opportunity...)

Of course, it's possible Q just thrived on the attention and, like any selfish adolescent, would have simply checked out if he didn't seem to be getting a reaction. But it always seemed to me that a different approach would have been worth a shot.

Just WHY super-advanced aliens always act like selfish adolescents on Trek is a whole different question... ;)

I kind of viewed Q as the Star Trek version of Loki, he's a bit of a trickster but not really a mean spirited one. Outside of forcing the early meeting with the Borg I can't see him as a villain. But he was really out of place on DS9.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#30 BklnScott

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:40 PM

It always really bothered me that there was no follow-up on Q's actions in "Q Who?"  The next time he showed up, he should have had to answer for what he did - which caused a number of deaths.  It wad especially annoying because although Picard and Riker would have been justified in their anger, Q could have flipped the script and argued that he did it for humanity's benefit.  The Borg already knew about them - now they knew about the Borg too.  At least it would give them a fighting chance.

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#31 Josh

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 20 January 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

It always really bothered me that there was no follow-up on Q's actions in "Q Who?"  The next time he showed up, he should have had to answer for what he did - which caused a number of deaths.

They had the perfect opportunity too, as the next time he showed up, he had lost all his powers. They could have locked him up for good. Of course, that wouldn't have made for a particularly dramatic episode. ;)
"THE UNICORNS ARE NOT TO BE TRIFLED WITH!" - John Burke.

#32 DWF

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 07:07 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 20 January 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

It always really bothered me that there was no follow-up on Q's actions in "Q Who?"  The next time he showed up, he should have had to answer for what he did - which caused a number of deaths.  It wad especially annoying because although Picard and Riker would have been justified in their anger, Q could flipped the script - he did it for humanity's benefit.  The Borg already knew about them - now they knew about the Borg too.  At least it would give them a fighting chance.

What could they possibly do to him?
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#33 FarscapeOne

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 07:09 PM

I see Q's actions in "Q Who" exactly as Picard said to Guinan at the end of that episode... he did the right thing for the wrong reasons.

As BkInScott stated, Q gave the Federation a fighting chance to defend themselves against the Borg when they come, which they eventually did.  If Q had not done that, things would have turned out COMPLETELY differently for the Federation, and the entire Alpha Quadrant.

And even though Q does have a history of simply toying with beings, he HAS been very helpful.  In the series finale, it was Q who was jumping Picard back and forth in time to help him save humanity.  So in a sense, Q saved humanity.  And Janeway said it, too.  Of everything he has done, he has NEVER been a liar.

Q is simply one of those creations that should have stayed in TNG because he was a perfect fit there.  His appearances otherwise rather sucked, with the exception of VOYAGER's "DEATH WISH".

#34 BklnScott

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 07:30 PM

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They had the perfect opportunity too, as the next time he showed up, he had lost all his powers. They could have locked him up for good. Of course, that wouldn't have made for a particularly dramatic episode. ;)

That's what I meant.  They did that kind of thing all the time.  Walk right up to an intriguing and impactful character beat only to back away at the last moment - as if spooked.  Sometimes they even left the table set for it!  Very frustrating.

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#35 DWF

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 07:38 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 20 January 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

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They had the perfect opportunity too, as the next time he showed up, he had lost all his powers. They could have locked him up for good. Of course, that wouldn't have made for a particularly dramatic episode. ;)

That's what I meant.  They did that kind of thing all the time.  Walk right up to an intriguing and impactful character beat only to back away at the last moment - as if spooked.  Sometimes they even left the table set for it!  Very frustrating.

And if you recall Riker was all for not protecting him, meaning that he'd be killed but in trying to save Q's life it redeemed him in the eyes of the Q. Mankind's humanity was the key to that ep. and of course here he's blamed for the events on the station, which weren't his fault.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#36 Josh

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 07:44 PM

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That's what I meant.  They did that kind of thing all the time.  Walk right up to an intriguing and impactful character beat only to back away at the last moment - as if spooked.  Sometimes they even left the table set for it!  Very frustrating.

TNG is a frustrating show in a lot of ways. In DS9, you can see a clear character arc for many of the characters but in TNG, many of the characters remained unchanged from beginning to end. When they took chances, like Picard's Borgification or him living a second life ("Inner Light"), these life changing experiences were waved aside usually by the next episode. I was stunned they devoted an episode to Picard's Borg trauma ("Family") but after that, nothing. I guess you can only expect so much from a show which is very much a product of its time.
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#37 BklnScott

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 07:59 PM

I think it was the product of an earlier time.  :)

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#38 DWF

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 08:00 PM

View PostJosh, on 20 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

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That's what I meant.  They did that kind of thing all the time.  Walk right up to an intriguing and impactful character beat only to back away at the last moment - as if spooked.  Sometimes they even left the table set for it!  Very frustrating.

TNG is a frustrating show in a lot of ways. In DS9, you can see a clear character arc for many of the characters but in TNG, many of the characters remained unchanged from beginning to end. When they took chances, like Picard's Borgification or him living a second life ("Inner Light"), these life changing experiences were waved aside usually by the next episode. I was stunned they devoted an episode to Picard's Borg trauma ("Family") but after that, nothing. I guess you can only expect so much from a show which is very much a product of its time.

As Picard's brother told him, he'd ave to face what the Borg did him in space or under the sea and it was brought back up again in Descent and the movie First Contact. But then earth was attack during the Dominion War and nothing was made of that and DS9 was magically repaired after the Jem Hadar attack in To The Death.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#39 writergroupie

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostJosh, on 20 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

TNG is a frustrating show in a lot of ways. In DS9, you can see a clear character arc for many of the characters but in TNG, many of the characters remained unchanged from beginning to end. When they took chances, like Picard's Borgification or him living a second life ("Inner Light"), these life changing experiences were waved aside usually by the next episode. I was stunned they devoted an episode to Picard's Borg trauma ("Family") but after that, nothing. I guess you can only expect so much from a show which is very much a product of its time.
Not just a product of its time, but a production of syndication: meaning they would want to sell the show as "standalone" not serialized so those oh-so-desirable :p "casual viewers" could catch random episodes and enjoy them without history.  DS9 was really brave to go serialized as it probably was a big part of what would make it less successful in syndication than standalone TNG.  But that's also what makes DS9's storytelling seem more modern and interesting - characters grow and change, consequences follow actions.
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#40 DWF

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 08:20 PM

View Postwritergroupie, on 20 January 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

View PostJosh, on 20 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

TNG is a frustrating show in a lot of ways. In DS9, you can see a clear character arc for many of the characters but in TNG, many of the characters remained unchanged from beginning to end. When they took chances, like Picard's Borgification or him living a second life ("Inner Light"), these life changing experiences were waved aside usually by the next episode. I was stunned they devoted an episode to Picard's Borg trauma ("Family") but after that, nothing. I guess you can only expect so much from a show which is very much a product of its time.
Not just a product of its time, but a production of syndication: meaning they would want to sell the show as "standalone" not serialized so those oh-so-desirable :p "casual viewers" could catch random episodes and enjoy them without history.  DS9 was really brave to go serialized as it probably was a big part of what would make it less successful in syndication than standalone TNG.  But that's also what makes DS9's storytelling seem more modern and interesting - characters grow and change, consequences follow actions.

I really don't think it's a matter of serialized television VS episodic television, DS9 was less popular than TNG from the start and Worf was brought in the bump up the ratings. TNG is should noted has continued to remain on television which is more than could be said for the other modern Star Trek series.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido



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